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We ran into this scenario during a game last Saturday, and my Google-Fu is failing me. I issued a challenge with my Chaos Lord, which was accepted. After the first round, my Lord killed the challenger; I made a roll on the Chaos Boon table and rolled the Daemon Prince boon. However, I do not own a Daemon Prince model. One of the other players commented that, as he understands it, the Lord would be removed from the table regardless of whether or not I own the model, effectively killing my Lord since I could not replace him with a Daemon Prince model.

Is this how this scenario should be resolved?

Per the rules, if you cannot place the spawn/prince, you just remove the champion.

Correct, it not having the model prevented those results (spawn/prince) from occuring, no one would ever bring them as both are terrible.

Breng77 wrote:
Correct, it not having the model prevented those results (spawn/prince) from occuring, no one would ever bring them as both are terrible.

Chaos Spawn are not as bad as you think they are.

P.S. Happyjew is correct. if you cannot place the spawn/prince, you just remove the champion.

However in a friendly game you could use a proxy if your opponent allows it.

If you don't have a replacement Daemon Prince or Spawn, as mentioned, you lose him outright. However, HIWPI I would allow almost any kind of proxy to avoid that, even lending a Dread of my own if I have one to hand.
An alternative is to create your own conversion that is the right size between spawn and prince that most people would be happy with you using as a counts-as for whenever you need it.

Thanks for the quick reply, everyone!

Yes in a friendly game just having something that is the correct base size is fine, but beyond that you should really get a model for it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Correct, it not having the model prevented those results (spawn/prince) from occuring, no one would ever bring them as both are terrible.

Chaos Spawn are not as bad as you think they are.

P.S. Happyjew is correct. if you cannot place the spawn/prince, you just remove the champion.

However in a friendly game you could use a proxy if your opponent allows it.

They are both terrible in exchange for a half geared Lord, for a champion both are great.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Correct, it not having the model prevented those results (spawn/prince) from occuring, no one would ever bring them as both are terrible.

Chaos Spawn are not as bad as you think they are.

P.S. Happyjew is correct. if you cannot place the spawn/prince, you just remove the champion.

However in a friendly game you could use a proxy if your opponent allows it.

They are both terrible in exchange for a half geared Lord, for a champion both are great.

My buddy was most displeased when Typhus turned into a Spawn...

Then you read the WoC rules and see that they get to keep their wargear, so becoming a daemon prince is a bonus more often than a penalty....

That's not correct nos.

Dark apotheosis tells you to use the spawnhood rules with a few exceptions.

The spawnhood rule tells you that the model loses all special rules and wargear. Page 29 of csm codex

Barbo - read the sentence again, and hover over "WoC"

Right, got it. Thought you were talking about 40k lol.

No model, no prince.

So hide that model in KP games.

What I have done, lacking models for now, was take some appropriately-sized bases, put down basing material on the outer rim, leaving a Lord-sized "hole" in the middle. Then, if the Lord in question "hulked out", I mounted him to the base with blu-tac.

In the cases of spawns, I was expecting to simply let them die.

Im sure Games Workshop would love to supply you with a D.P. model for the "Low Low Price" of _____ (<-insert insane number and current currency here)

 Lunchmonkey wrote:
Im sure Games Workshop would love to supply you with a D.P. model for the "Low Low Price" of _____ (<-insert insane number and current currency here)

This ^.

Once again, GW exercises it's monopoly to make you buy models that you only need once every 12 games.

Breng77 wrote:
Correct, it not having the model prevented those results (spawn/prince) from occuring, no one would ever bring them as both are terrible.

Really? So you've never encountered Juggerlords with Spawn or a Black Mace DP? You've never seen a cultist champion get either of these (as either is an upgrade)?

DP and Spawn =/= terrible

Yes they are.

Your not going to win a challenge with a cultist...

When your 230 point typhus wins a challenge (and he will) and rolls spawnhood, it IS in fact terrible.

Having typhus turn into a DP is not much better, as he still loses all special rules and psychic powers and becomes a wingless slow and purposeful T5 model with no EW... Which promptly gets shot to pieces.

Exchange any other HQ for typhus and you get the same result. Regular champions are fodder for the HQ to get through challenges. They don't have nearly as much of a chance at surviving a challenge as HQ's do, so you won't be rolling for boons nearly as much.

The random 1 in a thousand chance that your cultist kills ANY character in a challenge and then rolls the dark apotheosis boon doesn't make it good.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Yes they are.

Your not going to win a challenge with a cultist...

When your 230 point typhus wins a challenge (and he will) and rolls spawnhood, it IS in fact terrible.

Having typhus turn into a DP is not much better, as he still loses all special rules and psychic powers and becomes a wingless slow and purposeful T5 model with no EW... Which promptly gets shot to pieces.

Exchange any other HQ for typhus and you get the same result. Regular champions are fodder for the HQ to get through challenges. They don't have nearly as much of a chance at surviving a challenge as HQ's do, so you won't be rolling for boons nearly as much.

The random 1 in a thousand chance that your cultist kills ANY character in a challenge and then rolls the dark apotheosis boon doesn't make it good.

You not reading so good... he was saying that without the boons no one would field DP or Spawn... which, while not Heldrake good, actually are very very good units. Many top CSM players use them, and especially a Lord with Spawn is a very strong unit.

As to the cultist, we are talking about what happens IF you turn into spawn or DP... so the odds of it happening aren't part and parcel to the line of reasoning here. So, when it does happen (and a marked cultist champ can reasonbly take on a SM sarg with just CCWs, IG sarg, Tau, etc... do you only challenge IC SM special characters in your games or something?) to a cultist champ (and I usually have as many of them as any other type of character) being a spawn or a DP is certainly a big boost. All of your aspiring champions fall under this too. I'll take a spawn over schmo aspiring champ any day. Unless you have a really wierd game dynamic, you should have way more cultist champs and aspiring champs than IC HQ on your board. In turn, your opponent should have way more rank and file characters than IC HQ... as CSM are pretty good at challenges, you should get a few boons from the minor guys in a typical game. How are running your CSM that you aren't rolling for minor characters as least as much as your IC? I almost never challeng with an IC if I can avoid it. I'd rather give a minor champ away to the challenge and have my HQ maul a squad than anhillate some SM sarg with my IC and do nothing remarkable with my squad.

Again, by themselves, DP and Spawn are solid units.... coming from a boon, they are at least an improvement more times than not... unless you're just not good at setting up smart matches for champs... then it just can't be helped, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back OT, I'd recommend just checking with an opponent that on the outside chance a DP shows up that your proxy of choice is OK... DP are pretty cheap on ebay right now, just go get one.

EDIT: fixxed typos, which I generate way more prolifically than boons

I had Ahriman turn into a Daemon Prince... I was fine with it, he was down to his last wound and this made him last a bit longer.

I think its pretty stupid that just because you don't own the model you can't at least proxy something as the model. I mean this game shouldn't be about crippling an opponent because he can't afford what GW releases every few months for ridiculous prices.

 BarBoBot wrote:
When your 230 point typhus wins a challenge (and he will) and rolls spawnhood, it IS in fact terrible.

Not to mention funny as My buddy still claims that named models should be immune to spawndom/princedom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

decoste007xt wrote:
I had Ahriman turn into a Daemon Prince... I was fine with it, he was down to his last wound and this made him last a bit longer.

I think its pretty stupid that just because you don't own the model you can't at least proxy something as the model. I mean this game shouldn't be about crippling an opponent because he can't afford what GW releases every few months for ridiculous prices.

In a friendly game, most people won't have a problem with a proxy. I've proxied both hormagaunts and genestealers as termagants in a game just because I kept rolling high tervigon-spawn and my opponent was fine with it.

The Plastic Daemon Prince model is one of my favorites in the game. I need to get a couple of more, along with some spawn, as I build my Chaos Space Marine army.

decoste007xt wrote:
I had Ahriman turn into a Daemon Prince... I was fine with it, he was down to his last wound and this made him last a bit longer.

I think its pretty stupid that just because you don't own the model you can't at least proxy something as the model. I mean this game shouldn't be about crippling an opponent because he can't afford what GW releases every few months for ridiculous prices.

To be honest, GW has always been about crippling prices. The difference in this situation is that with every other army if you can't afford the model, you just don't include it in your list. But in this case, you build an army list around the models you have and get punished for not owning a model you wouldn't ordinarily use. Now the poor CSM players have to shell out cash for chaos spawn and demon princes that they would not ordinarily use. I mean, it's conceivable in principle that you could spend $40 and a 40 man-hours buying, building, converting and painting a demon prince that never hits the table. It's just one more clever way GW is writing it's rules to boost it's sales - something they have been doing for decades.

 labmouse42 wrote:
No model, no prince.

So hide that model in KP games.

but he cannot be placed. Is that the same as killed?

Not as far as VP is concerned; the unit never existed

Also note that you might need more than 1 DP. You could roll Dark Apothieis twice if you have more than 1 champion.


Really what GW wants you to do is break your back and your wallet shelling out for 15 daemon princes for the slim chance that all of your 15 aspiring champions kill a character who is probably better in combat than they are and then subsiquently roll 64-66.

If that happens I think you win, but i could be wrong.

 Exergy wrote:
Also note that you might need more than 1 DP. You could roll Dark Apothieis twice if you have more than 1 champion.


Really what GW wants you to do is break your back and your wallet shelling out for 15 daemon princes for the slim chance that all of your 15 aspiring champions kill a character who is probably better in combat than they are and then subsiquently roll 64-66.

If that happens I think you win, but i could be wrong.

Well, I guess it's winning, from a certain point of view, but the real winner in this instance is GW for the crate of DPs you've had sitting in the bag for two years just *waiting* for this to happen.

 Exergy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
No model, no prince.

So hide that model in KP games.

but he cannot be placed. Is that the same as killed?

Yes.