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Is it just me or does the rule system spartangames use suck
have been playing dystopian wars and the models are good some are even great
but the rules are so dull almost feel like there is no joy in the rules and then its almost identical rule system over all there games and scales which just adds to the dullness
just feel like its a game for noobs with nothing for the more experianced gamer and even people new to wargameing must get quickly bored of it all

Are you sure that its not just because you are a "noob" that you don't like it?

I think that the system Spartan Games uses actually allows for a very fun game. I think their dice mechanism very nicely represents a large number of variables that are either ignored, or lead to extremely boring and frustrating number crunching.

This let's you get the slower part of a naval game out of the way so you can focus on your strategy, maneuvering, and target priorities .

Coming from playing Battle fleet Gothic, the only things I miss are the slower torpedoes making maneuvering more complex and the hit and run boarding, where the goal is to sabotage systems rather than capture vessels.

If you find the game boring I may suggest you and your friends look into the other factions, because some have more tricks and abilities than others.
I also suggest the use of the game cards. It can't be unbalanced because all players have access to the same set of cards, but brings into the game the support personnel because these ships have massive crews, and allows a fog of war as well as a meta game of trying to read your opponent to determine what cards he got so you can prepare to counter him.

Fenrir wish I was a noob or someone new to wargamming if the word noob offends any one then I might like the shodey rules
been playing war games since 4th edition of warhammer fantasy battles at least I think it was 4th edition box included (high elf and goblins)

Kizzle used the cards tryed diffrent fleets and still find the rules get a tad tired in respects to scope for new units. Having had gothic as well I liked some of the mechinics from it but again the rules needed to have a bit more scope as firepower rule systems can make things limited in my opinion but I did miss the torpedo system from gothic and the blast markers

Just find spartangames rule system a bit bland and useing firepower rules for there larger scales a bit lazy and a disgrace from my point of view which is a damn shame since some of there models are good

Maybe I have been spoiled by games such like old epic (spacemarine/titan legion), full thrust and a great many other games

Kizzle found best games we have had with dystopian wars is with kob vs prussian think it was about 3-4000pts each but even the people I play with got sick of the dull rules very fast good concept but woefully let down by the rules system

Kinda true.

It took 4 iterations for the ruleset to 'work'.
Uncharted Seas v1? Generally works, but had issues. Most units were boring stat differences.
Firestorm Armada v1? UTTERLY useless. Every model was just a slightly different set of numbers. No strategy. Terrain was broken and just stopped the game from working.
Dystopian Wars v1? A lot better. Torpedoes and Rockets are useless. Tiny planes and carriers are useless. A number of models per faction are useless.

Dystopian Wars v2 (current). Much better. Most things work. But it's mostly the same experience each time you play. Not a lot of 'out there' things happen.

---

One big thing about the rules is that basically your big ship has 8 hitpoints, sure. But it's useless after losing 2 anyway, due to the fact that those first points of damage neuter almost all of your offensive power against equal targets. It makes the games long, slow slug fests after the initial encounter.

Also, some units are still broken!bad, or poorly thought out (the time dialation sphere, holy gak).

I think the rules are a bit uninteresting, for reasons described arleady.

However, another problem was that they also didn't include the extras needed to support actual interesting play, such as a set of scenarios built in from the start.

This was a huge problem with Dystopian Wars.

To me, Spartan Games seems to be all about releasing some new thing, making the minaitures flashy and rules just barely good enough to get as much up front money, then abandoning it rules-wise.

So basically GW? Really? Is the SG forum turning into the GW ones now? People just coming to whine about the systems no one is making them play?

 doc1234 wrote:
So basically GW? Really? Is the SG forum turning into the GW ones now? People just coming to whine about the systems no one is making them play?

This kind of "Either play it uncritically or don't play it" attitude is dismal and lazy. Real fans care enough about games to want to improve them where they can.

I agree, Spartan rulesets are the most uninspired, lazy, and mundane rules I have ever played. They are beer and pretzel games but even as far as beer and pretzel games go they are bad, in that even a small game will take longer to finish than your desire for beer&pretzels will last.

To this day I dont think Ive ever finished a game, came close but we usually just called it so we could move on with our lives.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
So basically GW? Really? Is the SG forum turning into the GW ones now? People just coming to whine about the systems no one is making them play?

This kind of "Either play it uncritically or don't play it" attitude is dismal and lazy. Real fans care enough about games to want to improve them where they can.

Maybe, but they're by no means as bad as some. Just saying "the rules are boring spartan only wants money" Is pretty much what happens over on certain other sections of the site, and look how well that goes. Never said the spartan rules were perfect, by all means i will agree they are slow paced as feth, but even now they've addressed that with a new free ruleset meant for quicker games as opposed to doing nothing. The DW V1 rules were beyond bad, but again look what happened, they made an improved rulebook, and while the free erata wasn't exactly a ground breaking idea, they at least didn't do it via stealth updates and make it public when they know they screwed up. Even the expansion books, they put the critical stuff up for free.

Will admit i may have sounded a bit critical in my first post, had just woke up. My point was ment to be they aren't as bad as some other companies, and are doing fairly well for one supporting what, 5 or 6 different games? Not saying they're supporting them WELL (spotlight on how long US has gone without love from them) but they havn't just discontinued it all together as a big finger to the fans. If no ones noticed, they seem to listen to a lot of the criticism pointed at their games and (though it may not happen as "right now" as some may like") they do at least work on it.

I dunno, guess partially id just rather not have this turn into the next GW hateforum. I agree with your point, just think there's no need to be so critical so quickly without acknowledging they do get things right, rather than just spotlighting the screwups.

I do agree that the rules can be quite dry, especially at the game sizes that the OP mentioned (IIRC 3000-4000 pts) especially if it's 1v1 The game is a lot more managable at smaller point levels, try playing games around 1000pts and see if that changes how you feel about it.

I think Spartan has a very 'historical' background, and I've always found historical games to be 'dull', and perhaps this comes through in the rules, which detracts from the fun of giant steampunk ships.

But to side with Doc a little, please don't make this a money thing, there's a lot of hate on the forums as it is. And in truth, the fun is only as much as you make it, Try to use the more esoteric units (Ika, Metzgers, John Henrys, Giant flying aircraft carriers, etc) and put the fun in yourself. Create some crazy-ass scenario where you have to stop the EotBS from completing a giant steam-mecha of biblical proportions. Or have a combined theater game where your boats have to protect some landers containing your ground forces, which have to dump them on the beach to bust open some enemy bunkers. Use lists that are a bit out there (an all-walker land force for example) or come up with a campaign system, where squadron command vehicles level up to get buffs to their squadrons.

My humble opinion, with any game (from skirmish-scale to grand-army scale) is that they are only as fun as the players make them.

I dunno. I do like Uncharted Seas. I'll readily accept that the rules aren't the most inspired in the world, but I don't think they're bad. I suppose for me the fact it's a playable fantasy naval game with its own line of ships* makes it unique enough to be worth a look. I've not played (or really looked at) FA or DW though, so I won't comment on them.

I am concerned with Spartan's obsession with their latest projects though, support for US just seemed to drop off instantly 2 years ago (and all the while they were harping on about an upcoming expansion book... did that ever come out?)

* I always wanted to play Man O War as a kid and finally got the chance a short while after picking up US... THOSE are a poor set of rules.

Riquende wrote:
I dunno. I do like Uncharted Seas. I'll readily accept that the rules aren't the most inspired in the world, but I don't think they're bad. I suppose for me the fact it's a playable fantasy naval game with its own line of ships* makes it unique enough to be worth a look. I've not played (or really looked at) FA or DW though, so I won't comment on them.

I am concerned with Spartan's obsession with their latest projects though, support for US just seemed to drop off instantly 2 years ago (and all the while they were harping on about an upcoming expansion book... did that ever come out?)

* I always wanted to play Man O War as a kid and finally got the chance a short while after picking up US... THOSE are a poor set of rules.

SG have a bit of a problem like that, too many fingers in too many pies. In fairness though, considering Battlfleet gothic/FSA and Man o war/UC, DW was really their first "original" game. Even the new edition of FSA was apparently just the new DW edition ham fisted into space. Personally I think its the reason for all those PDF rules lately, trying to boost sales for the two games onto the level of DW. Even the last blog entry of FSA shows signs of strain, leaving release choices up to vote rather than doing it themselves. Personally, it is a sad state of things. Talking to my group the concensus is they may end up dropping either FSA or UC, or at least hand them over to Spartan Studios. DW and DL seem to be making them too much money for them to take much notice (Though in fareness i think sommethink they got a little silly with the FSA releases, too little for the core factions and too much focus on "buy ships from these 3 subfactions instead")

Played again today. Loved every second of it. 1000 pt games work well. Are the rules perfect? Surely not. Do they offer enough depth to stay interesting? I absolutely think so. And when the normal game doesn´t satisfy you anymore, you have all the extra modes like alternative deployment modes or the landing craft.

have to agree with near enough everything said
reason I liked the idea of dystopian wars was because I too missed out on the old manowar and every one loves big naval battles
but the rules I found sub par even with the release of the "campaign book" hurrican season what a waste and a bit of a joke
they should have just released it as a novel and be done with it

and have to agree that maybe the lack of a good game maybe because they have there fingers in too many pies.

its not like they havent had the chances to change the rule system they have 5 games now running off them as for that just means "if its not broke dont fix it" they know its broke thats why they have to release all those games because there rule system has such a short life that if they dont they will get too little sales as there games crumble because there is no or not alot of diffrence between ships to warrent buying anything more (this line made sense in my head lets hope it makes sense here lol)

As for the new armored assult sub game rules have been dumbed down even more now it seems tanks that are meant to be huge have one fire rateing lets patronise our buyers more

bit81 wrote:
have to agree with near enough everything said
reason I liked the idea of dystopian wars was because I too missed out on the old manowar and every one loves big naval battles
but the rules I found sub par even with the release of the "campaign book" hurrican season what a waste and a bit of a joke
they should have just released it as a novel and be done with it

and have to agree that maybe the lack of a good game maybe because they have there fingers in too many pies.

its not like they havent had the chances to change the rule system they have 5 games now running off them as for that just means "if its not broke dont fix it" they know its broke thats why they have to release all those games because there rule system has such a short life that if they dont they will get too little sales as there games crumble because there is no or not alot of diffrence between ships to warrent buying anything more (this line made sense in my head lets hope it makes sense here lol)

As for the new armored assult sub game rules have been dumbed down even more now it seems tanks that are meant to be huge have one fire rateing lets patronise our buyers more

Actually the armoured clash rules are closer to historical in design than the normal rules, and uses the new activation card/ coloured dice mechanic. So its actually the opposite to DW. (actually think DW adopting similar rules would be an improvment)

The campaign and scenario rules in Hurricane Season and Storm of Steel are fantastic.

I've just got the rulebook + a starter set (Kingdom of Britannia), and.. wow.. what can I say? The miniatures are beautiful little sculpts, I can't believe they are so detailed, and I can't wait to start painting them. And little touches like leaving a space for magnets, so I can move the turrets around on the miniature

The book looks really nice as well - well written, really cool artwork etc. .. Now, to start painting stuff, learn the rules, and find people who play the game

I recently got into FA (I know the OP said DW but they're p much the same) and I was pleasantly surprised by the rules.

I agree they're not the best rules ever, especially with how maneuverable all the ships are and how quickly neutered your centrepiece ships can be, but it's a nice fun ruleset - easy enough to teach your mates quickly then you can focus on outsmarting each other with activation order and little tactical decisions.

I hope they bring in a more detailed and mutli layered set of command and character rules rather than the randomness of the cards, and SG seem to want to listen to fan feedback so I'm guessing they will eventually give us what we want.

 Widowscar wrote:
I recently got into FA (I know the OP said DW but they're p much the same) and I was pleasantly surprised by the rules.

I agree they're not the best rules ever, especially with how maneuverable all the ships are and how quickly neutered your centrepiece ships can be, but it's a nice fun ruleset - easy enough to teach your mates quickly then you can focus on outsmarting each other with activation order and little tactical decisions.

I hope they bring in a more detailed and mutli layered set of command and character rules rather than the randomness of the cards, and SG seem to want to listen to fan feedback so I'm guessing they will eventually give us what we want.

In fairness, the FSA ships move like air units in DW, i can see why air units move "better" in DW, but i think FSA would have benafitted from the larger turn templates.

As for the large classes, they suffer from "bizmark" syndrome in all the games i think. They look lovely, are a LOT of fun especially against each other, but activation numbers will out do them every time.

More complexity? I've found some people who cannot drive their ships around without crashing into things. lol

To me it's a game where you and your buds all grab a starter box, and then it's beer and pretzels and made dice rolling on weekends to take breaks from more serious games.

I like the crazy dice mechanics, and the models are cool. Could it be better? Maybe but you could say that about every game out there.

I like the game I have just started as KoB and I find the rules direct and clear to be honest Ive read them around a few times and now I dont ususally find any problems in game, only thing I can complain about is the CR for your biggest ship but thats all really.

The game system is good. The rule book layout is what sucks.

I put them ahead of GW at the same point in their evolution in terms of models and core rules. Lots of room for a decent editor to say the least, but certainly not a bad game system.

I think the rules suck. It's all about taking a max size squad, sitting in your optimal range band and linking fire to throw a bucket of dice. The person who rolls the most 6's wins. When you can decipher the rule book that is.

However I must say I'm loving Dystopian Legions and Armoured Clash especially. In the latter I feel that morale plays a big part and I enjoy the tiered list building which solves the problem of Spartan's game design of a few good units for each faction which you want to spam endlessly. The coloured dice mechanic also feels fun and intuitive.

Truly the game is no more about "taking a max size squad, sitting in your optimal range band and linking fire" than you and your friends make it.

For one thing, it is truly impossible to "just" sit in your optimal range band unless both you and your opponent spend a turn to go to full stop, in which case you are morons. The ships have a minimum move each turn, which will quickly take you out of your optimal range, at which point you have to figure out how to get into the optimal range and firing positions while depriving your opponent of the same.

For another thing, this game is no more about taking the optimal squad size than ANY other miniatures game.

In all games, the only reasons you would really take a less than full squad is either to save points, artificial game restrictions require it (such as transport capacity or arbitrary weapon restrictions), or to get a bonus from multiple squads. In the last instance Spartan Games has an equally important situation, because having more activations than your opponent can be very helpful in giving yourself a strategic edge.

On your last point, the game is not "all about linking fire". In Dystopian Wars, the superior strategist is the one who knows when it is proper to separate his fire to damage multiple units. For instance, a KoB BB while linking fire will reliably kill frigates or crit cruisers. But, if he fires his turrets independently, he has a decent chance of wiping out a max sized squad of frigates, or possibly even taking out an entire cruiser by damaging it four times. If he linked he would not have been able to get more than two points of damage.

The game does have a lot more complexity and thought than a lot of people here give it credit for.

But, that said, I do love Dystopian Legions, and think that it is the most fun game I've played in a long time. I personally like it more than Dystopian Wars, but that may be because I've never been very engaged by naval games or large scale battles.

I'd disagree on all your points. The game has tactical options certainly and minimum movement is a factor, but it's a game of he who rolls the most 6's first wins. If you want more activations, use TFT generators. Split fire is great in some circumstances, but, like many other wargames, which doesn't excuse Spartan Games, bucket o' dice and roll high.

I hope the Armoured Clash rules become Armoured Splash soon enough.

I'd say the bucket of dice issue is more or less a hazard of playing any platoon level and higher game. Any game that even remotely abstracts a handful of models into working and fighting as a squad (or squadron) will invariably end up the same. Even in Warmachine, where you may say it is impossible to roll more than 3 or 4 dice at the same time, I see that it is the same. Because all you are doing is taking your known bucket of dice and resolving it one at a time.

When you get done resolving one of your units attacks against another, or a warjack, take a step back, and I think you will find you rolled what the detractors in the gaming hobby call a "bucket of dice".

On the topic of Dystopian Wars, you must remember it's first and foremost a naval wargame. Normally these have factors required to be determined in resolving attacks, such as facing of both ships, distance to target, wind conditions, then will have a fairly complex crit table. IMO, Spartan has done a superb job at abstracting these components into a very random system of dice rolling. So random that it can represent a single stray shell, that should have had no way of seriously damaging the ship hitting a magazine, or fuel reserves and crippling or destroying the ship. This is a very rare occurrence IRL, yet in my opinion is included well here.

Spartan creates naval games for casual gamers, and I'd say they succeed. The games cannot easily be used for competitions, and would not be number crunchy enough for true naval gaming aficionados.

On the statement of in DW you only take max size units, I'll just say I disagree, because I'd much rather take three squads of three frigates for my FSA than two of four and one of two. Also, although the medium ships are best in full squads I've often seen them smaller, because it is a balance between taking enough models to get the job done and taking enough units to actually accomplish everything needed.

I wonder if your issues was you played to many games centered around dreadnoughts. To me those always seem so much more boring and simple, as opposed to when the fleets are actually composed of variety.

Having not played Warmachine since the early days of Mk1, I'll take your word for it .

I don't think the fact that Dystopian Wars is primarily a naval game has much to do with my dissatisfaction, abstraction is part of every war game. I'd like the ruleset to be tighter and slightly more competitive, again, like Armoured Clash/ Dystopian Legions. Possibly I'm not a target customer. I'm not a fan of the factions being balanced each other by theatres of war, for example Britain having a strong navy and land force but poor air.

I prefer games centred around the bigger models. I feel like I have more tactical options. However I can wait (and dream) for Armoured Splash.