Smoke + chainrifle; Legal?

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**Ironbovin**

Hi guys;
I just realised that I may have performed an illegal move during my last game:

I had a dog warrior poping a smoke grenade on the corner of a bulding, then moving INTO the smoke cloud, and firing his chainrifles at the fusillier just beyon the smoke. We ruled then that as the fusillier did not see the dog warrior, no ARO was generated.

question is: the dog warrior did not see the fusillier either... was it legal to fire the chain rifles, then?

**Von Skyfury**

It was legal but required a Intuitive attack

http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Intuitive_Attack

With Intuitive Attack, a miniature can detect movement and shoot to cover a wide area where the enemy could be. Intuitive Attack can only be performed with Direct Template weapons (Flamethrower, Nanopulser, Chain Rifle...) deployable weapons and equipment (Mines, E/Mauler, Deployable Repeater, CrazyKoalas …) and the E/Marat. This Skill allows performing of an attack against a camouflaged figure that has not been discovered previously, as well as figures inside Zero Visibility Zone (like a Smoke template) or shooting from inside a Zero Visibility Zone. It also allows placement of a deployable weapon with an enemy inside its area of effect.

Intuitive Attack is a Long Skill that consumes 1 Order. To be able to make an Intuitive Attack a figure must succeed in a WIP Normal Roll with no Modifiers (MODs from Distance and Skills CH: Camouflage and Hiding are not applied). If the camouflaged figure starts shooting, any shots will be simultaneous with Normal Rolls. If the camouflaged figure receives a hit, he will have to reveal himself, removing the Camouflage Marker and placing the appropriate figure, even if his ARM Roll is successful.

If the WIP roll is failed, it is not allowed to repeat the Intuitive Attack on the same target until the next Game Turn.

**Ironbovin**

Ok, that clarify it all. Thanks!

I owe someone a die roll...

**bantha_beast**

You would need to spend at least two orders to be able to a) throw smoke, b) move into smoke and c) shoot the chainrifle. If you throw smoke and walk into the 'smoke' as part of the same order the fuslier would get an ARO to your movement as a ftf if it wanted to shoot, as the success or otherwise of throwing smoke is only resolved at the end of your order. If you throw the smoke first with one order (successfully) and then walk into it with a second the fusilier gets no ARO because he has no line of sight but then neither does the dog warrior. You would need to spend a third order to perform an Intuitive Attack which is a long order which would allow you to fire the chain rifle if you pass your WIP test.

**Ironbovin**

So, three orders minimum... This severely reduce the usefulness of smoke grenades. Two orders to place a grenade and move into/behind it.

easier then to "simply" jump on the building and hose down the victim from above and behind...

**bantha_beast**

It takes three orders but it gets you a free attack with no ARO. And if you're moving within the fusilier's zone of control he'll get a change facing ARO so you might as well just move to the corner and shoot from there.

**Von Skyfury**

If he can be inside the range of your template while outside of his Zone of Control, go for it

http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Zone_of_Control_(ZC)

The rear sensors of a miniature, or even his auditory perception (Amplified or not) will allow him to be aware of his environment in a radius of 8 inches. This 8-inch radius around each model is known as the Zone of Control (ZC) .

If any enemy moves into or acts inside the Zone of Control but out of the LoF of a figure, he is immediately able to react but only against that enemy. If an enemy enters a Zone of Control but is behind an obstacle that does not allow LoF to be drawn (For example a high wall or the interior of a house) a miniature is only provided with an Automatic Reaction Order to turn around and face his enemy. The figure is considered to have heard some noise and is turning towards its direction. If the model has any Special Skill or Equipment that allows it to act without LoF, it may use that instead of Change Facing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ironbovin wrote:
So, three orders minimum... This severely reduce the usefulness of smoke grenades. Two orders to place a grenade and move into/behind it.

easier then to "simply" jump on the building and hose down the victim from above and behind...

And now it was against a simple fusillier, this can be used even against bigger targets =) (watch for MSV2)

**Ironbovin**

Haaa... the ZC... Well, then... I now owe someone much more than just one die roll...

But, yes, in that particular case, i would have just run to the corner and shoot from there.

**Von Skyfury**

In cover, your dog warrior has good chances of surviving that combi rifle hit =)

**Micky**

Just to expand on this - what if the model firing the template from within the smoke was within 8" of the target, and had Sixth Sense?

**bantha_beast**

If the model with the chain rifle has sixth sense it makes no difference. If the model being attacked had sixth sense then it would get a simultaneous ARO to the chain rifle attack instead of having to wait for the attack to be resolved before gettings its ARO.

**Von Skyfury**

Sixth sense gives a model the ability to react to the enemy. So the bonus granted works only on the reactive turn.

So in this situation, the only way sixth sense would change something, is if the defending model possessed it.

http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/sixth_sense

Miniatures endowed with this skill have a special capacity to sense danger. They are able to perceive the enemy’s intentions without having to see him, which allows them to react rapidly when attacked by surprise. Sixth Sense has two levels:

•Level 1: Within a radius of 8 inches, the miniature will be surprised by neither Impersonators, Camouflaged, nor TO Camouflaged miniatures, nor enemies hidden by a Zero Visibility Zone nor can he be attacked from the rear within his Zone of Control.
In this way, when attacked from within an 8 inch radius in his Zone of Control, the miniature will answer the assault in a simultaneous fashion with a Face to Face Roll. Figures with Sixth Sense L1 will be able to react against Impersonators, Camouflaged, or TO Camouflaged figures and enemies hidden by a Zero Visibility Zone inside their Zone of Control only at the moment of being attacked, acting as if those miniatures were in front of them and revealed but not Camouflaged and not applying the Modifier of –6 for a Zero Visibility Zone . They cannot however react to movements or any other action of Impersonators, Camouflaged and TO Camouflaged foes or troops hidden by a Zero Visibility Zone. This Special Skill functions automatically (No need to spend any Order or make any Roll).

•Level 2: Allows the miniature to react in a simultaneous fashion to attacks (Not to movements or any other actions) by Impersonators, Camouflaged, and TO Camouflaged figures and enemies hidden by a Zero Visibility Zone in LoF, no matter the distance and the blocking of LoF by Zero Visibility Zones and not applying its –6 Modifier.
The miniature can also react simultaneously to any attack performed against it out of its LoF.

This Special Skill functions automatically (you will not need to spend any Order or make any roll).

**Mathieu Raymond**

It might have changed a few things indeed.

So the implied concept is that even though two short skills are performs sequentially, they basically take place at the same time. If an effect is to be given time to "actualize," then it will be taken into consideration only on another order.

Wouldn't it be assumed that a model using smoke grenades to cover its advance has A WAY of seeing through its own smoke?

Although a battlefield is rather fluid...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there were two fusiliers. Not that it mattered much, your argument is exactly the same, but there were two poor buggers.

Bantha beast raised a point I wasn't aware of... you can't react with a regular ARO to a chain rifle attack? I know it wouldn't be ftf, but it wouldn't even be simultaneous?

**IJW**

It's not simultaneous because the active model is attacking through a zero visibility zone. This effectively gives the attacker a first strike effect.

**Ironbovin**

I think mathieu was refering to the "throw smoke"-"move" short skills combo in the same order.

What I understand here is that whatever action you take in whatever order, both are simultaneous in their resolution, so you can't be concealed by the smoke you make in the same order.

Then going through a door takes two orders??? one short skill to activate the door, then wait for resolution, then another order to move?

No sure I like that.

**IJW**

I should have made it clearer that I was replying to his last line!

Open/Close is a short move skill, why would you not be able to do it partway through another Move short skill?

**Mathieu Raymond**

Because he's seen me open doors before!

The impact would have been minimal, Ironbovin, because it was dependent on my making armour saves, which did happen, but not often enough, if I recall, to really change anything.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Two more quick games.

Both were lost on deployment, as previously.

I did not bring MSV2 to the table, only MSV1, and no snipers. First game could have swung in my favour on account of his large amount of Impetuous and Frenzy orders, but he cleaned me up rather convincingly.

Second game had me completely exposed from deployment. A bloodbath ensued.

Question everyone. Am I forced to use all my orders? I was pinned on all fronts and ratehr than risk more AROs, I decided not to use orders and pass the turn to my adversary. Is that allowed?

**BlueDagger**

Yep it's allowed but usually not recommended since your active phase is a lot more powerful then your ARO phase.

**Mathieu Raymond**

SO I could technically just have waited for him to walk/run into the range of my Auxbot Heavy Flamers and be done with it... huh!

BD: considering the number of goofs I do, constantly, no, my ARO phase accomplishes a lot more for a lot less risk.

**Von Skyfury**

Dont forget, you can still lay down suppression fire corridor if you really dont have anything else to do =P

**Alkasyn**

Von Skyfury wrote:
Dont forget, you can still lay down suppression fire corridor if you really dont have anything else to do =P

That's also what I'd do if I had nothing else to do in my active turn.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Fantastic idea. I'll have to read the specifics of it.

**Alpharius**

From the always awesome and appreciated Infinity Wiki:

Suppression Fire (SF)

This is a Long Skill that requires an entire Order to be spent to allow a figure to engage in Suppression Fire. A Suppression Fire Marker (SUP FIRE) is placed on the table: the centre of the marker must be in a straight line with the LoF of the firer, with no obstacles in between, and no further than the Long range of the wielded weapon. Suppression Fire creates a corridor of fire as wide as the Marker, drawn in a straight line from the base of the attacker to the extent of the weapon's extreme range, unless blocked by terrain.

Suppression Fire (SF) allows firing the complete Burst (B) of a weapon in ARO. Any miniature, allied or enemy, in LoF, that touches a SF corridor will receive (if the SF figure succeeds at its BS rolls) all the shots indicated by the B of its weapon, in reactive firing. The complete B of the weapon will be fired at each and every miniature activated in LoF by Order inside a SF corridor; and at any miniature that enters a SF corridor in LoF with a Normal Move, Dodge, Coordinated Order, Cautious Movement or any Short Movement Skill.

An example of Suppression Fire use is placing it in a narrow zone or funnel on the battlefield: in that way, enemies pressed to move through it will have to choose another route or risk receiving a rain of bullets.

If a Suppression Fire area is placed over a figure, he may be shot at as many times as allowed by the Weapon’s B value, when it's activated by an Order in his active turn. Note that Suppression Fire cannot be undertaken with an ARO.

In active turn, to place a Suppression Fire allows, with the same Order, to shoot in a normal way to those miniatures placed in LoF inside it.

Example: Fusilier Angus spends 1 Order to place a SF which he covers 4 enemies, with the same Order, he splits the B 3 of his Combi Rifle to fire at 3 of them.

The Suppression Fire area is maintained until the beginning of the next active turn of the player who declared it.

A miniature with Suppression Fire will automatically have it cancelled if he tries to use any other Skill but Suppression Fire. This rule applies for active and reactive turns.

Suppression Fire may be used against Zones of Zero Visibility (Smoke grenades, thick jungle, etc.). SF allows firing at figures placed inside or behind these zones, but with a BS Mod of –6.

FAQ

- Can I put a Suppression Fire directly affecting an Impersonator?

No, you can not. While the impersonator is not discovered , it is considered a friendly troop and you can not attack a friendly troop directly (see LOF rule). But if the impersonator crosses a SF, it will receive the shots.

- Can I put a Suppression Fire affecting one Camouflage or TO Marker?

Yes. But... If you put a Suppression Fire on an area where you suspect it´s a figure in Hidden Deployment, you can not shoot until the troop is revealed.

With Suppression Fire, you control the area to prevent that troop to move or act. So, if the troop is activated and reveals himself, you can shoot your full B

Basically, Suppression Fire does not reveal the figure in Hidden Deployment, contrary to what happens with a successful Intuitive Attack against a Marker. Even in ARO, the Camouflage in Movement rule indicates that:

If a Camouflage Marker does not perform anything but MOV in his turn, even if it crosses a Suppression Fire zone or a figure's ZC, the only ARO that can be executed against it is Discover or Change Facing.

- Can I put a Suppression Fire in short range, thus avoiding hitting friendly troops beyond my target?

You can not put a Suppression Fire at distances less than Long range. This means that if you do the following:

"I put a Suppression Fire at a distance of 14 inches. My troops will move at 20 inches behind this point", the Suppression Fire does not stop within 14 inches, continues to Long distance, so that these miniatures will receive the full Burst of his partner ...

- Can I change weapons while I´m doing Suppression Fire?

No. Suppression Fire (SF) uses the usual BS Attack declaration: The player declares how and with what weapon, therefore to declare the Suppression Fire you must indicate which weapon is being used and while the SF still active, the figure uses that weapon.

If the player did not specify the weapon to be used (wrong!) Then he must use the main weapon. For example, if the troops has a Combi Rifle + Grenade launcher, he uses the Combi Rifle.

With MULTI weapons, the player may choose the type of ammunition to be used.

- Can I use Direct Template Weapons (Flamethrower, Chain Rifle, Nanopulser ...) with Suppression Fire?

No, you can not use such weapons with Suppression Fire.

- What is the height of a Suppression Fire corridor?

A Suppression Fire corridor is a tube with circular diameter equal to the suppression fire marker's length.

- Can a Suppression Fire Marker be placed in a way that it or the resulting corridor affects friendly models?

No.

- Does a model in a Suppression Fire corridor that completely blocks Line of Fire to a model behind it prevent the activation of the Suppression Fire if the model behind it activates?

Yes. The suppression Fire’s Corridor ends where the Line of Fire of the Suppression shooter is completely blocked.

- How does Suppression Fire work in ARO with Link Teams?

"To sum up, a linked team whose leader has declared a Supression Fire, during his/her reactive turn, ARO, only the leader can shoot in order to keep the supressive fire, (applying all the bonuses +1 Burst. +3 BS). The rest of the linked team members can't shoot and in the case of declaring an ARO different to that of the leader they´ll leave the team."

http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Suppression_Fire

**CDK**

You can also do things like going Prone or just moving into better positions.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Not if moving into a better position will require you to expend quite a few orders that will create multiple AROs. That was exactly what I was trying to avoid.

Going prone out in the open when the opponent holds all the roofs in sight... would that give me any benefit?

**Pacific**

Only that your guy is already lying on the floor, so save him falling over when he gets shot mate

From your descriptions about being afraid of moving out of your deployment zone, are you sure you are using enough terrain? You should be able to make flanking manoeuvres, move your guys forward into better position, without all of them being shot to pieces!

**Mathieu Raymond**

I thought I had enough, and it looked crowded. There were still a few long fire lanes because I can't seem to make a completely random and LOS blocking terrain (I think this is just something that is discovered once you start playing that particular encounter). If however someone deploys 12 to 18 inches away from you, on the roofs (rooves?) there is bloody little you can do to flank.

The first of our last games I tried favouring one flank, got smeared. Then I tried favouring the other flank and it was even worse. There's no denying it, he's good. He picks good forward positions for his infiltrators from the beginning, and his mobile killy units can then run circles around my deployment.

**bantha_beast**

If his guys are being deployed on roofs 12" away isn't that ideal shooting them distance? If you're playing Pan O you should have no problems with access to visors either for discovering (or even ignoring) camo. And if infiltrators are pinning you down so easily maybe you do need some more terrain?

**BlueDagger**

Corredinated order 4 models together and open fire on the silly infiltrator. Their 1 shot back will mean little when they have 4 separate targets firing at it.