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So I've been away from WM for ages, and I've only played a couple of game with my 20pts worth of Cygnar. I decided I want to try it again, but reading various forums I keep hearing how terrible and underpowered they are.

While I don't mind not being the top dog too much, I have a history of always choosing the weakest armies in wargames for some reason. I would not want to play the underdog again if possible. I like Legion and Cryx as well, somewhat, so I was wondering
if I should go ahead and ebay what I have, and move on to either of those two. Opinions?

Unless you are part of the top percent of players in the game, the relative strength of the faction won't matter, you will beat players that are worse than you and you will be beaten by players that are better than you, regardless of whatever faction you choose to play. So play what you wan't.

With that being said, Cygnar won the WMWeekend Invitational, the most prestigious tournament in NA, so make of that what you will.

I've been playing Cygnar for about six months, and I don't think that my choice of army has resulted in any more losses.

given the steep learning curve, and the built for competition nature of the game, the best way to learn is to pick something you like, and stick with it.

Even if you do want to eventually switch armies, you'll be able to do so knowing a lot about the armies and units from playing against them and understanding the synergy.

You could take a finely tuned Legion list as a beginner, and seasoned warmachine players will still beat you soundly. Learn to play, learn to play competitively, then decide if you want to jump factions.

Cygnar is not a weak faction at all. eHaley is one of the best Warcasters in the game. They also have the best Colossal.

This game is all about skill however.

Nope. Cygnar is on the middle of the power curve maybe even slightly on the high side. Not that Warmahordes cross-faction power curve is even that steep. It won't come out in casual play, and only skews high end tournaments slightly. Even then other factions in are in worse positions than cygnar atm. Not that anyone is in a particularly *bad* position, except maybe minions.

Cygnar is the the best at some things in the game. For instance taking out armor at extreme range, and whiniest player base.

DrDuckman wrote:
So I've been away from WM for ages, and I've only played a couple of game with my 20pts worth of Cygnar. I decided I want to try it again, but reading various forums I keep hearing how terrible and underpowered they are.

While I don't mind not being the top dog too much, I have a history of always choosing the weakest armies in wargames for some reason. I would not want to play the underdog again if possible. I like Legion and Cryx as well, somewhat, so I was wondering
if I should go ahead and ebay what I have, and move on to either of those two. Opinions?

This is simply untrue. Cygnar has several power house casters and well rounded jack and infantry selections. Legion and Cryx are the most often complained about because their rules tend to break other rules. Like how legion warbeasts are pretty much all eyeless sight which ignores stealth, cloud effects, forests and so on. They can also pull out some really wild tactics with their abilities. They both are crafty, fast and tend to have a glass jaw.

Cygnar has an uncanny valley of difficulty. When you start and when you are in top form they are very competitive, but somewhere in the middle they are below the power curve. (assuming your opponents are on the same level as you)

Some people that don't have time to really get into the game or the faction get stuck in the middle range since it is a bit more of a grind than some other factions. It can be easy to be bogged down in this phase, especially if you have other factions that don't trip you up.

I've done alright with Cygnar. I'm not going to say that they have all the weird faction-specific tricks that other factions have (eyeless sight for legion, or Menoth's... Menothiness, for example) but they are excellent as a general toolbox faction.

Nothing wrong with Cygnar at all...

They have eCaine, Stryker, haleys.

Journeyman warcasters.

Stormwall.

They are in good shape.

If i had a nickle for everytime somone said mercs suck, or ret sucks then watched them get stomped by the armies....

This all is encouraging to hear. I'd hate to have another one like the Prussian fleet in DS.

Alright, I'll keep plodding along with my Cygnar. I've generally not had much problems with them, but I tend to run against infantry dominated lists. I could see how heavy armor armies would be a huge problem for the Swans.

Cygnar isn't bad.

However, one of the key elements of being a cygnar player is thinking they are and lamenting it

The game is pretty well balanced, in that the difference between the strongest and the weakest is within a 10% win/lose margin

This means that even if they were the weakest (which they arent) they would still have plenty high % chance to win

Now they do have some core issues
1 - A lot of useless effects, or effects that only work vs Warmachine
2 - A lot of effects that should work against Warmachine, but for some reason, the meta has become something that specifically ignores it
3 - Special ability "lightning" is designed to kill infantry, and they already have pretty good infantry clear without it, even then, its debatable if its even the best infantry clear mechanic when compared to Fire and Corrosion

 Talamare wrote:
The game is pretty well balanced, in that the difference between the strongest and the weakest is within a 10% win/lose margin

This means that even if they were the weakest (which they arent) they would still have plenty high % chance to win

This seems to be the general opinion Ive found, which is why I didnt think twice about dropping the $$ for about 80pts worth of Cygnar, even though Im just getting into the game. Its taken a while for me (and my buddy starting WM with me, hes playing Menoth) to shake the GW train of thought...looking for the magic list for our factions that will kick butt (doesnt really exists) and fearing that one particular faction is going to auto kill us every time (not going to happen).

What we both really like about the game (besides the lower entry cost) is that its up to the player to make things work, and to that end you can run almost any units you want to. Sure some things are slightly better than others for the points, and some units are obviously made to compliment each other, but almost anything can work with the right tactics. Im looking forward to putting this to the test.

Yea they seem very balanced

Though if you're thinking of running only trenchers, then you might have an uphill battle imo

Yeah, the major concern that I am seeing is that I have no idea how you would pop some of the Khaldor jacks with their insane armor, or how you'd handle Protectorate jacks that can't be shot due to Choir.

Cygnar can excel by shooting, and also through balance. In scenario play, they are fantastic. Even an all out shooting list, can be hard to crack as your opponent in scenario play, is basically forced to move into it, if the Cygnar player has first turn.

Stormblades are extremely versatile, can do alot of fantastic things, Its really all about your growing skills as many people have said. My suggestion, find a caster you feel has a comfortable feel, and build from there.

You will take your bumps and niks like everyone who plays WMHD does, but in the end, if you excel, learn the rules, learn to use terrain and models creatively, Cygnar can help you excel.

DrDuckman wrote:
So I've been away from WM for ages, and I've only played a couple of game with my 20pts worth of Cygnar. I decided I want to try it again, but reading various forums I keep hearing how terrible and underpowered they are.
if I should go ahead and ebay what I have, and move on to either of those two. Opinions?

You're hearing from terrible players I think, cygnar can be very nasty.
Like said above, cygnar is prone to combo's, a new player is going to pick up ehaley/stormwall or a similar power bomb, and then when the local meta shifts to counter it the person complains because their powerbuild isn't a swiss army knife.
Another issue is that shooting armies (what cygnar players seem to want) are hard to play, when you start, again, BANG BANG BANG, then meta shifts, and the cygnar player isn't used to not tabling people with a gunwall and need to actually, you know, play the game

DrDuckman wrote:
Yeah, the major concern that I am seeing is that I have no idea how you would pop some of the Khaldor jacks with their insane armor, or how you'd handle Protectorate jacks that can't be shot due to Choir.

Running into the biggest threat with a Lancer and whacking it 3 times with the shock shield to take out its cortex is fairly effective.

I've been considering that yeah, though most casters dont seem to particularly need an arc node, as the lancer is too expensive for that. I've been considering just keeping a couple of stormcallers just to keep disrupting enemy jacks.

DrDuckman wrote:
I've been considering that yeah, though most casters dont seem to particularly need an arc node, as the lancer is too expensive for that. I've been considering just keeping a couple of stormcallers just to keep disrupting enemy jacks.

I've played as cygnar twice, using the sniper rifle caster, and was able to drop a heavy with a squad or rifleman under her feet and 3 CRA's
smash cortex -> slam is pretty effective too

FYI, Cygnar won the Warmachine Weekend Invitational Tournament, by a player who took them up for a year because people said they couldn't win. Take from that what you will.

Biggest thing about Cygnar it seems is dont be afraid to add Mercs.

Boomhowler and Co and forgeguard are a very good unit.
Mainly Boomhowlers

I hate relying on Mercs, it makes me feel like I am not winning with Cygnar, but with Mercs

Also I hate eHaley and Stormwall

They are becoming a crutch for Cygnar, nearly every single list is starting to include them

I hope MK3 comes soon to balance out the obvious power players more, and bump up the weaker ones a bit

Sorry to tell you there is no plan for MK3 as the game is good where its at.

Cygnar can win without Haley/Stormwall and without Mercs.
They are just options.

Stormwall/eHaley is becoming popular because people are lazy.

As more people use it, it becomes more expected, and begins to get eaten alive.

While we're on the subject of the eHaley/stormwall problem I feel a rant coming on, a rare event for me.

I've been very disappointed in how shallow the use of such a great model as stormwall has been. When it was first spoiled and people realized how meta-bending it was dozens of experimental lists popped up. What happened? were they all failed experiments? eHaley has enough strengths to win without two stormwalls, so why are people putting all their crutches in one basket?
Where is Kraye, where is pNemo, Where is Darius? Are single stormwall lists with other casters only viable in my tiny gaming group? I love those two models separately, but using them together has become so "warhammer" that the fun has been drained. There is no single best list. The more one thing becomes dominant, the more it will backlash and hurt all similar models later on. I do not want these unimaginative copycats to ruin all the colossals for everyone and especially don't want cygnar to take a step back.

Cygnar is not a weak faction, but it sorely needs some top-tier players to champion it and showcase how creative solutions can be found. This overuse of the eHaley double stormwall list exemplifies that.

 Dais wrote:
While we're on the subject of the eHaley/stormwall problem I feel a rant coming on, a rare event for me.

I've been very disappointed in how shallow the use of such a great model as stormwall has been. When it was first spoiled and people realized how meta-bending it was dozens of experimental lists popped up. What happened? were they all failed experiments? eHaley has enough strengths to win without two stormwalls, so why are people putting all their crutches in one basket?
Where is Kraye, where is pNemo, Where is Darius? Are single stormwall lists with other casters only viable in my tiny gaming group? I love those two models separately, but using them together has become so "warhammer" that the fun has been drained. There is no single best list. The more one thing becomes dominant, the more it will backlash and hurt all similar models later on. I do not want these unimaginative copycats to ruin all the colossals for everyone and especially don't want cygnar to take a step back.

Cygnar is not a weak faction, but it sorely needs some top-tier players to champion it and showcase how creative solutions can be found. This overuse of the eHaley double stormwall list exemplifies that.

Well, for what is worth, I was planning on taking a single Stormwall + eHaley list to the World Championships (its more effective than a double Stormwall list IMO), but realised that when October comes around everyone will know how to deal with it easily so I've changed my lists to Kraye + pCaine, so at least not EVERY Cygnar player is using eHaley + 2 Stormwalls.

Granted I will probably be eaten alive no matter what lists I chose to take so at least I'll be eaten alive with original lists and not net decked ones.

I'm still staggered by how many people can afford to buy an 80 quid model for a wargame, much less two... dear god people, that's getting more expensive than 40k now.

But still, while can see how the Stormwall is effective, particularly with the cover templates giving it some very important anti weapon master deterrent that other colossials dont have, surely having only one type of unit in your list is a deterrent, eHaley or not. There is gotta be a hard counter to it. I am thinking Cyrx infantry spam?

Stormwalls are expensive, but they make up for most of the army.. Still much cheaper then 40k by far.

Ret MHSF + Ravyn Counters it.
I have ways to do it with Mercs. (Ways to see through the biggens)

SKorne can have a Titan or two a turn with a 11 Movement (Not charge and cant charge)

Bronzeback can walk up and knock out a collosal on its own in most cases.