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Let me preface by saying I think the Nephilim is a fantastic looking model, and I really wanted to incorporate one into my (not WAAC but competitively friendly) army list. That being said, the thing is incredibly over priced for what it does, and I just can't justify taking one. The Storm Talon on the other hand is the complete opposite, horrible model, but fairly priced and some good rules to go with it. After tossing around some lists for a while now, I finally came up with an answer to my Nephilim conundrum, Codex Marine Allies

I figure i can model the Nephilim with the dark talon's hover jets (For the storm talon hover strike rule), say the avenger mega bolter is a "counts as" TL assault cannon, and the wing hard points are skyhammer missiles, not the god awful black sword. Not sure what to do with the Heavy bolters yet, probably some sensor array or something, but i plan on magnetizing in case i wanna use the Lascannon option.

C:SM Libby on bike goes with Sammy and his Command Squad, I'm thinking dome and Gate for his powers, and scouts are there to sit on the home objective and snipe. Combat Squad the RWAS as needed, but I feel good with 5, potentially 7 scoring units.

HQ:
Sam 200
Ravenwing Command Squad, Apothecary, Ravenwing Banner 165

Troops:
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, 236pts.
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, 236pts.

Fast Attack:
6man Black Knights, 1x Rad Grenade Launcher 252

Allied Detachment: C:SM

Librarian on Bike 135
8 man Scout Squad, SR, Camo Cloaks, ML 148
Storm Talon (Nephilim counts as), TL Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missiles 125

1497

I'm not sold on taking 8 scouts, but I'm not sure what to add. Bringing that down to a 5 man squad frees up 48 points, which if I can find another 25-30 would be a dark shroud or typhoon....both of which I think would be more useful but not sure were to cut the points (dropping Ravenwing Banner and Skyhammer Missiles will get me there but the load out on the Storm Talon isn't ideal).

Ideas are appreciated! Thanks for the read

I don't really think this list will be friendly competitive, you're just too crunchy when it comes down to it. RAS aren't meant to be in combat, they hide there from shooting and then leave, your RW Knights are your "punch" unit, but you've only got 6. I think you're stretching very far to include a flyer, because you want to run a flyer, not because it fits your list. To include the Storm Talon you're dropping in 135 for a Libby (w/o Divination) and 148 for Scouts, which really have no place in a highly mobile list. For the Allied points you could run a DA Libby on a bike with a PFG and Prescience, 2 Landspeeder Typhoons, and 3 more RW Knights and a few points to spare.

Ravenwing die much faster than their profile would indicate and when you're running the Wing you're probably going to be down on numbers to being with, so dropping points into scouts for the purpose of sitting in the back is counter to what this list needs.

If you've never run a bike heavy army here's the down low, you're going for the table, not the VP win. Bikes are hard hitting powerful, but not good at holding things, so you want to get to your opponent, eliminate his ability to hurt you, and then you mop of whats left and position yourself for the objective grab. Never forget that you can move 24" per turn with a bike, so look to have your opponent on the ropes at turn 4, that gives you up to 48" of movement to get a bike back to claim. Yesterday I took a MM Attack bike from the edge of my deployment zone (Hammer and Anvil) to within 12" of my opponents back table edge by the end of my turn 1 (scout + move + charge + consolidation)

Scouts w/SR look good, but have been a let down every time I've seen them on the table, both with and against. If you cannot get by without a flyer take something that can keep up and actively support your bikes, not a few guys to sit in the back and plink.

one thing you could do is use a C:SM captain on a bike which allows you to take space marine bikes as troops. this would keep the ravenwing theme

andystache wrote:
I don't really think this list will be friendly competitive, you're just too crunchy when it comes down to it. RAS aren't meant to be in combat, they hide there from shooting and then leave, your RW Knights are your "punch" unit, but you've only got 6. I think you're stretching very far to include a flyer, because you want to run a flyer, not because it fits your list. To include the Storm Talon you're dropping in 135 for a Libby (w/o Divination) and 148 for Scouts, which really have no place in a highly mobile list. For the Allied points you could run a DA Libby on a bike with a PFG and Prescience, 2 Landspeeder Typhoons, and 3 more RW Knights and a few points to spare.

Ravenwing die much faster than their profile would indicate and when you're running the Wing you're probably going to be down on numbers to being with, so dropping points into scouts for the purpose of sitting in the back is counter to what this list needs.

If you've never run a bike heavy army here's the down low, you're going for the table, not the VP win. Bikes are hard hitting powerful, but not good at holding things, so you want to get to your opponent, eliminate his ability to hurt you, and then you mop of whats left and position yourself for the objective grab. Never forget that you can move 24" per turn with a bike, so look to have your opponent on the ropes at turn 4, that gives you up to 48" of movement to get a bike back to claim. Yesterday I took a MM Attack bike from the edge of my deployment zone (Hammer and Anvil) to within 12" of my opponents back table edge by the end of my turn 1 (scout + move + charge + consolidation)

Scouts w/SR look good, but have been a let down every time I've seen them on the table, both with and against. If you cannot get by without a flyer take something that can keep up and actively support your bikes, not a few guys to sit in the back and plink.

Excellent points all. A shame really because I do like the Neph model but the rules are just not well thought out (20 points less than a Storm Raven with less armor, no transport capabilities, Sh*t tier missiles, crappier weapon options, no power of the machine spirit, ceramite plating, etc. etc. etc.). You pegged me well, this is my first all bike army (actually first loyalist Marine list to begin with), so I appreciate the insight. I agree, too big a stretch to fit the model.

My only question is, aside from the melta guns, why would I take prescience when everything but aforementioned melta guns is twin linked? Don't get me wrong, its an amazing power, but maybe redundant in a bike list that's trying to stay out of Close Combat (and again I am a novice with bike oriented armies so I might be totally off the mark with the logic here)

With the new info, how does this now truly Pure Ravenwing Look:

HQ:
Sam 200
Ravenwing Command Squad, Apothecary, Ravenwing Banner 165
Librarian on Bike, PFG 115

Troops:
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, Land Speeder Typhoon 311pts.
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, Land Speeder Typhoon 311pts.

Fast Attack:
6man Black Knights, 1x Rad Grenade Launcher 252
Dark Shroud 80

1434

Land Speeders stay close to the Shroud (And hopefully obscure for the additional cover save), the shroud I'd keep close to my Knights, who can really benefit from the stealth, with Jink + Skilled Rider for a 3+ Cover.

Can't decide between dropping the extra points into another Black Knight and some wargear or finding a few points for another typhoon...

All I think you need to do to tighten this up is:

Typhoons - Take them as a separate FA slot, Ravenwing Support Squadron, and keep them as a squadron.

Libby - rides tucked up under the Typhoons to give them a 4++ save and cast Prescience on the squadron

Shroud - Runs with the bikes to improve cover saves. The Typhoons/Libby run separately because they have their own protection (PFG). Also it can be worth giving up the 3 HB shots to move 1" flat out, ups the Shroud's cover save to 2+

If you squadron up stay with 2 Typhoons, 3 requires too wide of a spread to put all the guns on target. I'd even go so far as to trim 1 RW Knight for another 3 regular RW bikes. Right now you've got at best 6 scoring units, but Attack Bikes draw a lot of fire.

 Redsox84 wrote:

andystache wrote:
I don't really think this list will be friendly competitive, you're just too crunchy when it comes down to it. RAS aren't meant to be in combat, they hide there from shooting and then leave, your RW Knights are your "punch" unit, but you've only got 6. I think you're stretching very far to include a flyer, because you want to run a flyer, not because it fits your list. To include the Storm Talon you're dropping in 135 for a Libby (w/o Divination) and 148 for Scouts, which really have no place in a highly mobile list. For the Allied points you could run a DA Libby on a bike with a PFG and Prescience, 2 Landspeeder Typhoons, and 3 more RW Knights and a few points to spare.

Ravenwing die much faster than their profile would indicate and when you're running the Wing you're probably going to be down on numbers to being with, so dropping points into scouts for the purpose of sitting in the back is counter to what this list needs.

If you've never run a bike heavy army here's the down low, you're going for the table, not the VP win. Bikes are hard hitting powerful, but not good at holding things, so you want to get to your opponent, eliminate his ability to hurt you, and then you mop of whats left and position yourself for the objective grab. Never forget that you can move 24" per turn with a bike, so look to have your opponent on the ropes at turn 4, that gives you up to 48" of movement to get a bike back to claim. Yesterday I took a MM Attack bike from the edge of my deployment zone (Hammer and Anvil) to within 12" of my opponents back table edge by the end of my turn 1 (scout + move + charge + consolidation)

Scouts w/SR look good, but have been a let down every time I've seen them on the table, both with and against. If you cannot get by without a flyer take something that can keep up and actively support your bikes, not a few guys to sit in the back and plink.

Excellent points all. A shame really because I do like the Neph model but the rules are just not well thought out (20 points less than a Storm Raven with less armor, no transport capabilities, Sh*t tier missiles, crappier weapon options, no power of the machine spirit, ceramite plating, etc. etc. etc.). You pegged me well, this is my first all bike army (actually first loyalist Marine list to begin with), so I appreciate the insight. I agree, too big a stretch to fit the model.

My only question is, aside from the melta guns, why would I take prescience when everything but aforementioned melta guns is twin linked? Don't get me wrong, its an amazing power, but maybe redundant in a bike list that's trying to stay out of Close Combat (and again I am a novice with bike oriented armies so I might be totally off the mark with the logic here)

With the new info, how does this now truly Pure Ravenwing Look:

HQ:
Sam 200
Ravenwing Command Squad, Apothecary, Ravenwing Banner 165
Librarian on Bike, PFG 115

Troops:
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, Land Speeder Typhoon 311pts.
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike, Land Speeder Typhoon 311pts.

Fast Attack:
6man Black Knights, 1x Rad Grenade Launcher 252
Dark Shroud 80

1434

Land Speeders stay close to the Shroud (And hopefully obscure for the additional cover save), the shroud I'd keep close to my Knights, who can really benefit from the stealth, with Jink + Skilled Rider for a 3+ Cover.

Can't decide between dropping the extra points into another Black Knight and some wargear or finding a few points for another typhoon...

Edit: Stupid me, just noticed its because you must not have a MM on them. My bad.

andystache wrote:
All I think you need to do to tighten this up is:


Libby - rides tucked up under the Typhoons to give them a 4++ save and cast Prescience on the squadron

Thats a fantastic idea, i dont know why but i was putting the libby in with Sam and his Command squad, but this makes so much more sense. Thanks for the great input sir, much appreciated!

 Redsox84 wrote:

andystache wrote:
All I think you need to do to tighten this up is:


Libby - rides tucked up under the Typhoons to give them a 4++ save and cast Prescience on the squadron

Thats a fantastic idea, i dont know why but i was putting the libby in with Sam and his Command squad, but this makes so much more sense. Thanks for the great input sir, much appreciated!

Seconded, thats an interesting idea.

I'm glad you guys like it, I started running 2 Typhoons when we had the old codex and the new one removed the load out restrictions making it much meaner. I don't generally pay the 10pts for the MM on the Typhoons because I don't like to get within bolter range of the enemy.

I've started putting a Force Stave on the Libby over a sword or axe. Since I'm handing out a 4++ to anyone he charges might as well have the +2 Str so he can do something against rear armor (in the off chance he ever gets that close)

Potential Final List:

HQ:
Sam 200
Ravenwing Command Squad, Apothecary, Ravenwing Banner 165
Librarian on Bike, PFG 115

Troops:
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike 236
6 Man RWAS, 2x Melta, MM attack bike 236
3 Man RWAS, 2x Plasma 110

Fast Attack:
5 Man Black Knights, 1x Rad Grenade Launcher 210
Dark Shroud 80
2x Land Speeder Typhoon, with heavy bolter 150

1502, the two points over won't be a problem with my group, will switch out the plasma on the 3 man squad with Melta guns and some melta bombs on the libby if I take it to a LGS.

I would consider taking 2 grenade launchers on the black knights hitting on 4s can make them unreliable. Also the Sergeant needs a power maul as they are your best horde control.

Also the ravenwing banner is poor you need the fortitude banner as it really helps with such a brittle army. The only other banner worth considering is the devastation one as that makes your RWAS pump out a huge amount of firepower.

Now that I've had some more time to think on this I'd drop the RW Command Squad entirely, the Apothecary is nice the banner is good, but you don't really need them and if Sammy is with an RAS squad they have Skilled Rider like the RW Knights.

With the extra points from splitting up the RW Command consider running multiple 3 man RAS's with 2x melta. Taking the 165 our of HQ would put you at:

(3 man RAS, 2x Melta) x 4
(3 man RAS, 2x Plasma) x 2

with 15 points left over for goodies. It's the same number of bikes overall, but we've added 2 Plasma guns and 4 Meltaguns.

The biggest advantage there is no matter what your opponent takes out there's going to be more coming.

I'm not entirely convinced of the utility of PFG Librarian on Typhoons; you're using a 115 point unit to boost a 150 point unit which shoots 4 missiles and 6 HB's a turn.

I personally don't run speeders myself but mostly an aesthetic choice: I run this list currently at 1500, and am planning a second one:

Sammael
Librarian, Lvl 2, rolling Telepathy
Techmarine, PFG
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Command Squad, Banner

3 Ravenwing AS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS

Land Raider Crusader, Deathwing Vehicle, MM

1500 points on the dot.

The Darkshroud is superfluous because the Land Raider gives everyone in radius a 4++, which is superior to the DS, which flies around and does 0 dmg the entire game.
This also forces your opponent to waste fire on a 4++ Venerable, Repairable Land Raider. Last game I played it survived 10 penetrating hits (4++, repair, reroll). You can also do useful things like block off Line of Sight and area denial, which is strong against horde armies like orcs.
Telepathy Librarian rolling for invisibility is also key to the list- Invisible Black Knights are one of the strongest units in the game, with an automatic 2+ cover save for moving and being strong in assault, with hit and run, and with Sammael and the Librarian in the unit they become extremely hardcore in close combat. Psychic Shriek is also an excellent fallback power, one of the best in the game.
Also this list has 4x the firepower of your list from the Banner of Devastation, which the enemy has to kill to get at. The Ravenwing Banner has its time and place but Devastation is so much better in every way for Ravenwing.
Plasma guns on Ravenwing attack squadrons are distinctly sub-par, because for the same points cost everything is better on the Black Knight.
Having a PFG on a Librarian is kind of counter-productive, as you want him to be in combat, and with a PFG Land Raider you can shield every single model in your army if you need to. The 3" range on a single model is too limited to be useful.

Should you not choose to go down the Land Raider/Standard route my other 1500 list is this:

Sammael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike
Techmarine, Servo Harness, Bike

RCS. Apothecary
RCS GL
RCS GL

3 RAS. Melta
3 RAS, Melta
3 RAS, Melta
3 RAS. Flamer

RBK Melta Bombs
RBK Melta Bombs
Darkshroud

1502
Through some quirk of the DA force org chart the Techmarine unlocks a third Black Knight squad. This is list is far more contingent on getting the first turn, as without it you're a sitting duck with no jink saves whatsoever. Should you be so lucky, you can turbo boost your entire army into the enemy's face with a 2+ Cover save on every unit (Split the IC's up to give the RAS Skilled Rider, put the last RAS behind to get cover from the rest of your units. RCS with Apothecary goes in front. Again, roll for Invisibility,but it's less important in this build since you have the Darkshroud.

Arguably this would do better with the FNP banner, but I prefer to have another unit of bikes. Ravenwing Banner would be extremely useful as well, it's a toss up for that or apothecary.
This list is chiefly an assault list which is strong for killing gunlines and MEQ's, it's not as balanced, shooty or all-round durable as the other list. I find Bike MSU's to be the most efficient way to run them- the enemy has too many targets too shoot, and you are able to use economy of force to destroy targets.

To some of the advice in the thread:

Power Mauls are superfluous. 12pts to go from Str 5 Rending to Str 6 Ap 4? The Corvus Hammer is one of the best free cc weapons in the game (Black Knight costs the same as a Ravenwing Biker with Plasma Gun), abuse it.

Ravenwing Grenades are Blast weapons, they don't hit on fours. I haven't missed yet in 9 games, weirdly enough.

Typhoons aren't scoring and they can't hide in CC, and die to a stiff breeze with the number of autocannon floating around. Hit and Run is the best skill in the metagame, as it allows you to deny the enemy shooting as and when you desire with bikers.

Pity about the flyers really, if GW can't be bothered to produce playable rules with their shiny new models, I can't be bothered to buy them.

6 Man units are a waste of 1 point, as long as you have the org chart for it get a new squad and a character for challenges and precision shots. Non-RWCS Black Knights are waste of 6 points unless you want to run a large unit, but with two HQ's two units of three are better than one unit of six. Sure, you lose the Character, but you can't be challenged in CC which can be to your advantage- you can ride down IC's with your 12 Str 5 Rending attacks.

Ravenwing bikers are a lot tougher than people in this thread give them credit. T5 is almost better than a 2+, and in CC most armies roll to wound on a 6, which is huge- and not to mention you can get 2+ cover save quite easily, with FNP on your Deathstar unit.

oh, I'm currently 9-0-0 with my Ravenwing in 500-1500 points, but nobody brings Helldrakes or I might lose a bit more

There is some rationality in going for maximum RAS biker squads, as they are substantially cheaper- you do lose substantial (and free) assault capability, twin linked, and survivability (Skilled Rider = 0 Dangerous Terrain tests and +1 to Jink), however, going for Plasma Gun Bikers.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Sammael
Librarian, Lvl 2, rolling Telepathy
Techmarine, PFG
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Command Squad, Banner

3 Ravenwing AS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS

Land Raider Crusader, Deathwing Vehicle, MM

1500 points on the dot.

Very interesting list, I never caught the Techmarine as an extra hq and then unlocking an extra Command squad before, very cool.

The more I look at it, the more I like this list, in one of my few play testing games with DA, i tried out that Dev banner against some Tyranids, I was blown away when my 10 bolter armed marines (with prescience cast) that cost 140 points one shotted a Trygon prime. I'm terrified they will FAQ the Crusaders Hurricanes as not eligible to receive the bonuses of the dev banner, but then again if they havent yet....

Thats funny you brought up invisibility on the Black Knights, because I was thinking on my way home from work the exact same thing. Just wish I could get better then 33% change of getting without spending so many points on a librarian that's mostly support.

I have had horrible luck with plasma guns on my Iron Warriors, and I hesitated to take them on my RAS's (hence the Melta on the big squads, small squad PG was for that little extra umph but i fully expect him to kill himself as is my plasma luck), so i love the Plasma Talon for the sole reason of twin linked goodness.

I disagree with the PFG on the libby, I don't really want him in combat as I use him mostly for support, and only throw him into the fray in a pinch (I suppose I should say my Meta is Nids, Chaos, Orks, IG, and BA). I think there is some merit to taking the Libby / Typhoon combo, as 4 twin linked krak missiles is never a bad thing, especially considering their long range and versatility. But damn man, the more I think about it, the more i think that LRC with the PFG techmarine is just too good to pass up.

My only thing is I'm hesitant about MSU bikes. No real reason beyond lack of experience with them and how best to position / advance down the field. I will try them out.

 Redsox84 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Sammael
Librarian, Lvl 2, rolling Telepathy
Techmarine, PFG
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Ravenwing Command Squad, GL
Command Squad, Banner

3 Ravenwing AS, Melta, Attack Bike, MM
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS, Melta
3 Ravenwing AS

Land Raider Crusader, Deathwing Vehicle, MM

1500 points on the dot.

Very interesting list, I never caught the Techmarine as an extra hq and then unlocking an extra Command squad before, very cool.

The more I look at it, the more I like this list, in one of my few play testing games with DA, i tried out that Dev banner against some Tyranids, I was blown away when my 10 bolter armed marines (with prescience cast) that cost 140 points one shotted a Trygon prime. I'm terrified they will FAQ the Crusaders Hurricanes as not eligible to receive the bonuses of the dev banner, but then again if they havent yet....

Thats funny you brought up invisibility on the Black Knights, because I was thinking on my way home from work the exact same thing. Just wish I could get better then 33% change of getting without spending so many points on a librarian that's mostly support.

I have had horrible luck with plasma guns on my Iron Warriors, and I hesitated to take them on my RAS's (hence the Melta on the big squads, small squad PG was for that little extra umph but i fully expect him to kill himself as is my plasma luck), so i love the Plasma Talon for the sole reason of twin linked goodness.

I disagree with the PFG on the libby, I don't really want him in combat as I use him mostly for support, and only throw him into the fray in a pinch (I suppose I should say my Meta is Nids, Chaos, Orks, IG, and BA). I think there is some merit to taking the Libby / Typhoon combo, as 4 twin linked krak missiles is never a bad thing, especially considering their long range and versatility. But damn man, the more I think about it, the more i think that LRC with the PFG techmarine is just too good to pass up.

My only thing is I'm hesitant about MSU bikes. No real reason beyond lack of experience with them and how best to position / advance down the field. I will try them out.

Actually, the Techmarine doesn't unlock a command squad, but a Bike techmarine unlocks a Ravenwing Command. You can take a Command Squad and Ravenwing Command Squad for each HQ choice on a bike. The best thing about Command squads is they are free force org chart slots so your list scales up very well to 2000 points.

I was on the fence about the Dev standard until I played my first game with it and rolled 80 dice on the first turn. Never left home without it again. The sheer amount of dice it puts out takes down FMCs, TMCs, MEQs, Light Vehicles, and the 24" range ensures your alpha-strike if you get first turn, so much so that any RW list without it is sub-par. I doubt they will ever FAQ it, and I haven't heard any-non consensus to it yet... and I have a friend on the Studio staff.

Telepathy is really good for Ravenwing in general- it's one of the more long-ranged abilities (24" on everything) and anything except 2 is a good result- Hallucination can be hilarious- (Mega-armoured nobz ID'ing themselves...) and Divination isn't really useful for RW since everything is twin-linked, and Misfortune is the only really useful result on the chart. Shriek may be one of the best shooting attacks in the game, since you can't take cover saves against it, aside from the range.

With regard to the Libby, My meta is relatively MEQ heavy and Chaos heavy, the Preferred Enemy: CSM on a squad is just too good to pass up, not to mention he's decent in close combat. Don't forget to use precision shots as well to snipe out models. If you face a lot of dedicated close combat I can see reasons for holding him back, but with all his abilities I think he needs to be in the thick of the fray to really get the most out of him. If you really want to protect your speeders run a Darkshroud with them, they get the same bonus (4+ cover) for less points but I think this is sub-par with less than 6 speeders.

Don't forget, your Command Squad and HQ choices are essentially disposable missiles to keep your troops alive, don't be too afraid to let em take casualties.

MSU of course depends on the boards you play on. My boards generally are quite small, 48" squares, so MSU works because it lets me optimise application of force. There's no real benefit in running squads of 6, because you lose the Character who's good for soaking challenges and precision shots. Try both, your mileage may vary.

Hmm, just realised the Servo Harness is AP 1. This makes the tech a lot better against vehicles than I thought.

Whilst by RaW the techmarine does indeed open a RW command, indeed by RaW Sammael and any other bike HQ allows both a bike command and a normal command. It seems the intent is very clear here and I doubt many tournaments would FaQ you could cheat in this manner. If you think you can get away with cheating in your gaming group go ahead but us it really worth it and you're just going to have to change your army when the FaQ comes out unless your opponents don't check them? But if you're willing to cheat in this manner why not just take a 3k list?

The advantage of bigger Black Knight units is they are excellent Horde control with 7 attacks each in a turn they charge. Power maul Sergeant is brilliant here. Charge an ork mob and challenge the nob your opponent has two choice refuse and the only thing that is a threat to your bikes doesn't attack. Or accept and face 4 attacks that hit him on a 3+ and cause ID on a 2+ .

As for big units of RW vs small units. Big units give you more options you can always combat squad down if you want. However small units become a liability in purge the alien and to a lesser extent in emperors will and the relic where First Blood becomes more important and where you don't need a huge amount of scoring. Likewise in crusade or big guns if you roll only 3 objectives.

However the 4++ Landraider is a power house (though I wouldn't be surprised if they FaQ this doesn't work). The banner of devastation is likewise brilliant for well any DA army other than DW (no I don't want to get into a discussion on whether it effects storm bolters).

How exactly is it cheating when it's completely legal AS WRITTEN? One FAQ has already come out and not addressed the issue, what makes you think another will? Is having three command squads broken? No. Until an FAQ comes out and explicitly tells you cannot, no tournament will disallow something that is clearly allowed by the codex.

The so called 'advantage' of bigger units is that you lose more units to Overwatch when you charge in. A unit of six does just as many attacks as two units of three. The only downside to MSU is when you want to field more than fifteen, which is hard to do at 1500 points and still have a balanced list, and kill points. Mauls are good against Orks, no doubt- but they are the only army which has 2 wound squad leaders which isn't worth 12 points in a TAC list.

Large units lose flexibility and a character, but gain survivability (this is in itself questionable, as a larger unit is easier to shoot/cc than two small units) Small units however guarantee overkill by your opponent, and wasted firepower is desirable.

Again, they explicitly FAQ'd aoe effects to work from vehicles, why would they FAQ it to overturn their previous ruling? No, Devastation is RW>GW>DW(Crusaders). Tac marines do not have relentless and scout for the alpha strike.

Your faith in GW's attention to rulesets is sadly misplaced, I believe.

Do you believe the intention is to allow nectarines to take command squads and for HQs to take 2? If not then by taking them you are breaking RaI. Last time I checked deliberately breaking the rules was the definition of cheating...

As for big squads vs small you can combat squad so there is no disadvantage to having big RWAS squads...

What causes RW armies the most bother? Same as any other elite army Hordes. What's the most common and competitive horde army? Orks... Also the new daemons the power maul can be great against Heralds and other MCs.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Do you believe the intention is to allow nectarines to take command squads and for HQs to take 2? If not then by taking them you are breaking RaI. Last time I checked deliberately breaking the rules was the definition of cheating...

As for big squads vs small you can combat squad so there is no disadvantage to having big RWAS squads...

What causes RW armies the most bother? Same as any other elite army Hordes. What's the most common and competitive horde army? Orks... Also the new daemons the power maul can be great against Heralds and other MCs.

Actually yes, I believe the intent was to allow DA players to take more Command Squads than other Chapters. In the fluff description of the Command Squads it says that unlike other Chapters who use Command Squad purely for escort duties the DA use their as a multipurpose unit that can be an escort, can lead charges while the HQ attends to the work of the Inner Circle, as a lynchpin unit in a forlorn hope. There are restrictions on who gets what Command Squads, Techmarines not being trusted by the Inner Circle cannot take a PW Command Squad, but as part of the Ravenwing they can be escorted by the Black Knights. This is purely fluff, but in the Ravenwing novel you can see this in action.

Just because it's not like every other Chapter doesn't mean it's wrong, after all the DA are considered a non-Codex Chapter, we just try to appear to be a Codex Chapter for obvious reasons

Yet you only learnt about this a couple of posts ago...

Also DA get command squads for each HQ this makes them more common than codex marines who only get them for Captains. They allow multiple command squads per HQ but only if they are different types? You really think there's a fluff justification for that. Also the intention is clear that a Techmarine is not a "proper" HQ as he is only selectable with another HQ and they tell you he can't take a command squad...

Anyone claiming they think that is RaI is kidding themselves or lying. Just as much as anyone thinking that FMCs don't have relentless or smash is RaI...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yet you only learnt about this a couple of posts ago...

Also DA get command squads for each HQ this makes them more common than codex marines who only get them for Captains. They allow multiple command squads per HQ but only if they are different types? You really think there's a fluff justification for that. Also the intention is clear that a Techmarine is not a "proper" HQ as he is only selectable with another HQ and they tell you he can't take a command squad...

Anyone claiming they think that is RaI is kidding themselves or lying. Just as much as anyone thinking that FMCs don't have relentless or smash is RaI...

Actually *I* pointed that out shortly after the codex dropped and as of yet have not had anyone say that it is a mistake. Please take a look at who's replied to you before lacing into them. The PW Command squad specifically states that Techmarines do not unlock the Command Squad, none of the other Command Squads carry this restriction. And if we're not basing RAI on fluff and other sources then what are we basing it on? In fact I believe RAI is that I can take both a PW Command Squad and an RW Command Squad for Sammael, PW and DW for Belial, Chappy/Libby with bike or termie armor do the same, and that Techmarines on bikes open up RW Command squads. I don't run lists like that, but I see it as a valid tactic should you choose to drop that many points into HQ.

I do not appreciate you implying that I kidding myself or lying. The rules are laid out in the book, there is no indication that they were meant to be anything other than what they were written to be. This is why RAI isn't valid, you have your interpretation that the DA should be like every other SM army and I think that we're non-Codex and as such get some nifty stuff in exchange for losing out on things like Storm Raven/Talons, one of those nifty things is up to 6 Command Squads in one FOC

 FlingitNow wrote:
Do you believe the intention is to allow nectarines to take command squads and for HQs to take 2? If not then by taking them you are breaking RaI. Last time I checked deliberately breaking the rules was the definition of cheating...

As for big squads vs small you can combat squad so there is no disadvantage to having big RWAS squads...

What causes RW armies the most bother? Same as any other elite army Hordes. What's the most common and competitive horde army? Orks... Also the new daemons the power maul can be great against Heralds and other MCs.

As far as I'm aware Nectarines aren't allowed to take command squads, however they do unlock Peaches...

Techmarines on the other hand...

Your argument is entirely based on some nebulous notion the 'intentions' of the designers, comparing it to a 5th edition codex written years ago for a different edition .

Rules as Explicitly Written, POST FAQ, allow you to take multiple command squads. There is no 'breaking' of rules. It is EXPLICITLY legal. Until something changes, any attempt to argue otherwise is FLAWED.

Your ad hominem attacks do not help either. In any case, if you have nothing to contribute to the Ravenwing discussion aside from your ideas of what Dark Angels should be like, with no relevance to the actual ruleset, please refrain because you're taking this way off topic.

Rules as Explicitly Written, POST FAQ, allow you to take multiple command squads. There is no 'breaking' of rules. It is EXPLICITLY legal. Until something changes, any attempt to argue otherwise is FLAWED. 

Firstly there hasn't been a full FaQ for the codex yet. The rules do not explicitly allow it they just don't deny it. Why on earth would Belial or Sammael have a power armoured command squad? Why would they have more command squads than Azrael?

Also by your logic FMCs don't have relentless or smash but the as yet undefined relentless smash special rule and the rulebook has had multiple full FaQs.

Your insistence that GW get everything perfect when they write so that RaW = RaI is way off. The rules for this are clear. Why is this relevant to this thread? Because you are advising him to do something with his army that is clearly against RaI and is therefore cheating...

So can we leave out the suggestions for cheating otherwise my advise for his 1500 point army is take 10,000 points. Back on topic why take smaller squads which have no advantages over bigger squads?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Rules as Explicitly Written, POST FAQ, allow you to take multiple command squads. There is no 'breaking' of rules. It is EXPLICITLY legal. Until something changes, any attempt to argue otherwise is FLAWED. 

Firstly there hasn't been a full FaQ for the codex yet. The rules do not explicitly allow it they just don't deny it. Why on earth would Belial or Sammael have a power armoured command squad? Why would they have more command squads than Azrael?

Also by your logic FMCs don't have relentless or smash but the as yet undefined relentless smash special rule and the rulebook has had multiple full FaQs.

Your insistence that GW get everything perfect when they write so that RaW = RaI is way off. The rules for this are clear. Why is this relevant to this thread? Because you are advising him to do something with his army that is clearly against RaI and is therefore cheating...

So can we leave out the suggestions for cheating otherwise my advise for his 1500 point army is take 10,000 points. Back on topic why take smaller squads which have no advantages over bigger squads?

I'm sorry man (or woman), but you're literally arguing your interpretation of the rules versus ours, which is exactly why we (players as a whole) use RAW in cases outside of house games. Why would Sammael or Belial have a PW command squad? Simple a Fallen has been located in the HQ of the enemy. In order to assault said Fallen Belial and Sammael task a PW command squad with leading a charge against one flank of the enemy while Sammael's bike's penetrate the thinned out defense on the other flank and allow Belial and the DW to teleport directly into confrontation with the Fallen. That is an established DA tactic.

All of your other examples are hyperbolic attempts to substantiate a position that you have not been able to support with any written rule. When you couldn't cite anything to discount a Techmarine with an RW Command squad you changed tact and bring Belial and Sammael into the discussion. I've been a Dark Angel since we had rules for Cypher in our codex and this is the best codex for us yet, it makes us firmly non-Codex without being as obvious as SW or BA. If you don't like the way the rules are written in the codex you are free to not play a DA player or to concede your match in a tournament, but until there is something directly from GW saying that Command Squads are supposed to be limited like a standard marine army you're wrong. You want it to be one way, but the BRB, the DA codex, and the DA FAQ (there have been two updates total to the FAQs and so far nothing on Command Squads) simply don't support your position.

Also your profile is a Ultramarine and you're coming into a Dark Angels thread talking about fluff, really? Really?

Oh god you're that notorious 'Relentless Smash' troll. Please refrain from ever posting again, thank you.

Sadly a tech marine doesn't qualify for a command squad but how about this?

Azrael to unlock a command squad and RW as troops, Also +10 Leadership and 4++ invuln for his squad.
Techmarine with PFG to generate the bubble
Librarian 1st level on a bike with an auspex - perhaps also with a PFG

Azrael 230
Techmarine 80
Libarian - 90

Command squad (foot) with Banner of Fortitude 185 ir Fortitude 165
RW Command squad with Banner of Ravenwing. 135
DW Landraider or LRC 290

990 to 1040 ( Banner of Fortitude and PFG for the librarian)

Now you can take minimum RW squads to meet your troop choices...

3 RW (2 Flamers) + Attack Bike with MM 146
or 126 for Black Knight 3man - 1 GL 126

3 Bike squads for 438. When you combat squad you have 3 units of 3 bikes and the 1 attack bike.

If you can't keep 13 bikes within 3" of the LRC, you are in poor shape. With Banner of devastaion that means 4 x 16 TL bolter shots and 2 x 12 TL bolter shots plus the librarians 4 bolter shots...
Of course if you want the resiliency, you go with the Banner of Fortitude and everyone is pulling a T5 AC 3 Invulnerable 4++ and a 5+ FNP roll. You take the PFG on the librarian in this case and then you can range up to 12" from the LRC and still get the FNP and your 4++ invulnerable save.

DAaddict wrote:
Sadly a tech marine doesn't qualify for a command squad but how about this?

Azrael to unlock a command squad and RW as troops, Also +10 Leadership and 4++ invuln for his squad.
Techmarine with PFG to generate the bubble
Librarian 1st level on a bike with an auspex - perhaps also with a PFG

Azrael 230
Techmarine 80
Libarian - 90

Command squad (foot) with Banner of Fortitude 185 ir Fortitude 165
RW Command squad with Banner of Ravenwing. 135
DW Landraider or LRC 290

990 to 1040 ( Banner of Fortitude and PFG for the librarian)

Now you can take minimum RW squads to meet your troop choices...

3 RW (2 Flamers) + Attack Bike with MM 146
or 126 for Black Knight 3man - 1 GL 126

3 Bike squads for 438. When you combat squad you have 3 units of 3 bikes and the 1 attack bike.

If you can't keep 13 bikes within 3" of the LRC, you are in poor shape. With Banner of devastaion that means 4 x 16 TL bolter shots and 2 x 12 TL bolter shots plus the librarians 4 bolter shots...
Of course if you want the resiliency, you go with the Banner of Fortitude and everyone is pulling a T5 AC 3 Invulnerable 4++ and a 5+ FNP roll. You take the PFG on the librarian in this case and then you can range up to 12" from the LRC and still get the FNP and your 4++ invulnerable save.

Please explain how a Techmarine is not an HQ selection. Also Ravenwing, not Dual Wing, not Tri-Wing, Ravenwing. The OP wants a bike army, why are you posting a list that guts the bikes to run something completely different?

EDIT - Explain why the Command Squads specifically disallow themselves from allowing additional Command Squads, but do not reference Techmarines except disallowing PA Command Squads

Alright it states on p.95 "For each Command Squad in your army (not including Techmarines or other Command Squads of any type) you make include a Command Squad."

Now to prempt your RAW statement, THAT IS A REGULAR COMMAND SQUAD AND IT DOESN'T STATE THAT UNDER A RAVENWING COMMAND SQUAD!!!

It seems pretty clear to me that the RAI is to not allow spamming Command Squads based on Techmarines and/or command squads...

I suppose if you wanted to be known as the cheeze-meister you could run it as RAW for now. Expect to get beat over the head repeatedly by every opponent that you try doing this.

1. It prohibits a Command Squad from qualifying for a command squad.
2. It prohibits a Techmarine from qualifying for a regular command squad.
3. A DW command squad does not qualify for a DW command squad
4. Seeing a Techmarine cannot take Terminator Armor. He does not qualify for a DW command squad.
5. A RW command squad does not qualify for a command squad.
6. A Techmarine is an HQ and can take a bike.
7. It doesn't prevent a techmarine from qualifying for a bike squad.

RAI - hmm a techmarine can't take a standard command squad, can't qualify for a DW command squad. I know they intended to allow Tech marines to qualify for RW command squads!!! I think this is ludicrous. I would count this as a typical GW British non-rules-lawyer oversight.

RAW - As I said. Go for it cheezy cheesemaster limburger, aged brick cheddar man. Be ready for the beat down when the Brits roll their eyes and specify it.

As to the list, I was trying to go with the survivability of a LRC, Banner of Devastation and PFG. It admittedly is a lot of points to get all this at 1500 but it is going to expand well to 1850, 2000 etc. For instance add 9 more bikes at least and you are rolling.

DAaddict wrote:
Alright it states on p.95 "For each Command Squad in your army (not including Techmarines or other Command Squads of any type) you make include a Command Squad."

Now to prempt your RAW statement, THAT IS A REGULAR COMMAND SQUAD AND IT DOESN'T STATE THAT UNDER A RAVENWING COMMAND SQUAD!!!

It seems pretty clear to me that the RAI is to not allow spamming Command Squads based on Techmarines and/or command squads...

I suppose if you wanted to be known as the cheeze-meister you could run it as RAW for now. Expect to get beat over the head repeatedly by every opponent that you try doing this.

1. It prohibits a Command Squad from qualifying for a command squad.
2. It prohibits a Techmarine from qualifying for a regular command squad.
3. A DW command squad does not qualify for a DW command squad
4. Seeing a Techmarine cannot take Terminator Armor. He does not qualify for a DW command squad.
5. A RW command squad does not qualify for a command squad.
6. A Techmarine is an HQ and can take a bike.
7. It doesn't prevent a techmarine from qualifying for a bike squad.

RAI - hmm a techmarine can't take a standard command squad, can't qualify for a DW command squad. I know they intended to allow Tech marines to qualify for RW command squads!!! I think this is ludicrous. I would count this as a typical GW British non-rules-lawyer oversight.

RAW - As I said. Go for it cheezy cheesemaster limburger, aged brick cheddar man. Be ready for the beat down when the Brits roll their eyes and specify it.

As to the list, I was trying to go with the survivability of a LRC, Banner of Devastation and PFG. It admittedly is a lot of points to get all this at 1500 but it is going to expand well to 1850, 2000 etc. For instance add 9 more bikes at least and you are rolling.

So really your response is I can't actually justify my response with RAW or with fluffy sources because the Dark Angels RW command squad can and does escort Techmarine so I'm going to resort to calling you names. This isn't rules lawyering, this is saying hey the Dark Angels aren't a codex Chapter and OMG they don't follow codex rules.

You cite how specifically the Command Squads are worded, but expect me to believe that the one Command squad that a Techmarine could unlock doesn't specify Techmarines don't unlock them. I know you're attached to your interpretation, but lacking a basis for your stance is no reason to start throwing around insults.

I don't know what I expected from you honestly, it's is painfully apparent you haven't read my posts in this thread, especially the one where I say that I do not run this type of army list. Hell you can click on my username, view my posts in Army Lists, but no. You don't have the wherewithal to research anything, you just want to call me names in an attempt to discredit my argument because you can't contradict me. So take your LRC and I'll table you, without a single Command squad. Your list is one dimensional and indicative of a lack of tactical knowledge. You rely on the most obvious combination in the codex because other people have run 24" lists. Please change your username to SM Addict, put down the DA codex and go play with Fling in smurf land. See I can insult you too, it's not that hard, especially when I'm not scrambling to defend my position without anything to support me

Techmarines don't take up a HQ slot. They can not be selected by themselves. They are therefore not a normal or proper HQ choice. They are distrusted by the rest of the Dark Angels and are almost outcasts this is why they don't get command squads. The intention is very clear if you don't want to play it that way feel free to house rule it to follow the raw. But if you are not agreeing that before hand with your opponent then that is cheating.

Stop saying I'm trying to make DA command squads work like normal marines ones. I am not as I've pointed out. DA command squads come in 3 different variations and each HQ is allowed to take 1. For codex marines you only get 1 for a Captain.

You claim that I'm a troll for pointing out that by RaW FMCs have relentless smash. Yet your argument here is identical. The intention is clear you are choosing to break that. As previously pointed out that is the definition of cheating.