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THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH WHITE DWARF. IF YOU'RE HERE TO BASH WHITE DWARF, SAVE IT FOR ANOTHER THREAD!

I'm at a crossroads so to speak. I'm still in the camp of "I enjoy White Dwarf", but am torn between buying the paper mag or digital. I figured I'd see what Dakka has to say to maybe sway my decision.

Pro's:
Digital does not take up shelf space.
Digital is searchable and bookmark-able.
I can download the digital version on day of release and not worry about my LGS being sold out or a late shipment.
I can browse my WD collection while on plane rides/airport layovers.
Digital is a few $ cheaper.

Con's:
Digital has less content (despite what GW claim there is in fact less content in the digital version).
Digital uses a smaller format that shrinks everything.
Digital is intangible and has no resale value.

I agree White Dwarf is irrelevant here. This is really a paper vs digital discussion.

Regardless, give me paper any day. I still like my purchases to have a physical presence in the world.

Same. If iTunes goes down tomorrow and my iPad gets ruined, then I've lost it, but only physical harm can come to physical things.

GW can delete the digital white dwarfs anytime they like as you don't own them, you just rent them. So not really a good thing if you want a permanent record.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
GW can delete the digital white dwarfs anytime they like as you don't own them, you just rent them. So not really a good thing if you want a permanent record.

This is actually so scary every time I think about it.

Then I remember that you can still unlock iTunes music and ebooks if you have appropriate software and store them elsewhere.

I have a 2.5" internal hard drive (not in a computer, mind you. But protected) that holds all my music and books or movies/whathaveyou from iTunes, just in case come the apocalypse.

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:Same. If iTunes goes down tomorrow and my iPad gets ruined, then I've lost it, but only physical harm can come to physical things.

I believe that since your iTunes account tracks your purchases they can be re-downloaded without having to pay again. Plus, if you back up you iPad to a Mac or PC then it shouldn't be too much of a concern. I've found that iCloud does not back up as much as one would hope, but it could be due to the first sentence there (iTunes account tracks your purchases they can be re-downloaded without having to pay again).

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:GW can delete the digital white dwarfs anytime they like as you don't own them, you just rent them. So not really a good thing if you want a permanent record.

While technically true, I highly doubt it'll ever be a true concern. I guess time will tell.

 oni wrote:

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:Same. If iTunes goes down tomorrow and my iPad gets ruined, then I've lost it, but only physical harm can come to physical things.

I believe that since your iTunes account tracks your purchases they can be re-downloaded without having to pay again. Plus, if you back up you iPad to a Mac or PC then it shouldn't be too much of a concern. I've found that iCloud does not back up as much as one would hope, but it could be due to the first sentence there (iTunes account tracks your purchases they can be re-downloaded without having to pay again).

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:GW can delete the digital white dwarfs anytime they like as you don't own them, you just rent them. So not really a good thing if you want a permanent record.

While technically true, I highly doubt it'll ever be a true concern. I guess time will tell.

I can only see them doing a delete if they intend to sell white dwarf compilations, not something I would put past them though.

The resale value thing is a misnomer, check eBay. Second hand ones go for feth all.

 mattyrm wrote:
The resale value thing is a misnomer, check eBay. Second hand ones go for feth all.

Older ones have some value (I paid a couple of ££ for one a few months ago), but I can't see the current crop being worth much in the future.

Good ol' fashioned paper. And is it just me or do new White Dwarf magazines smell really good?

 Satan's Little Helper wrote:
Good ol' fashioned paper. And is it just me or do new White Dwarf magazines smell really good?

So does potpourri

i'm firmly onboard with the digital mag...
i even bought a subscription (a couple bucks off the cover price, and four issue for free, is not a bad deal)...
plus, i'm really enjoying the interactive digital format...

the deciding factor for me is that i live in Mexico, and don't have any shops (aside from Mexico City, 9 hours away) that sell minis...
i still love all the pretty pictures in each issue, and enjoy the designer's notes, army showcases, Golden Demon showcases, and Blanchitsu...

my only gripe is that the files are huge, and will quickly eat up space...
you can delete each issue, and then download them again for free at any time, so it's not such a big deal...
my next ipad will definitely be 30 gigs, instead of 16, for sure...

all in all, i'm happy with my purchase...
i still like paper mags, but have many heavy boxes full, which are not convenient for a guy who is always moving to new countries...
having my mags in one convenient, portable, device is awesome...
it feels like the switch from CDs to ipod all over again...
my pack got so much lighter...

i know a lot of people hate the Dwarf these days, but i have been a loyal collector since issue #75, and still enjoy that new mag every month just as much as i did as a 12 year old kid...
guess i just never grew up...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

my only gripe is that the files are huge, and will quickly eat up space...
you can delete each issue, and then download them again for free at any time, so it's not such a big deal...
my next ipad will definitely be 30 gigs, instead of 16, for sure...

That's why it is nice to have a tablet that takes memory cards...oh, wait - GW digital products are iStuff only.

Barring that and speaking more to digital in general - it depends on the format. I don't buy digital that I do not actually own. None of these wonky have to connect to a server to use them. Sometimes I am on a plane or other location that that isn't a possibility... Sometimes I just want to archive a big bunch of files to some Blue Ray discs and stick them in the file cabinet till I need them again.

If a magazine/book offers a two-fer option (both paper and digital) I will generally take them up on that. I still like to have paper, but again - if I am traveling for a bit...I don't want to have to haul around 15-20 pounds of books and magazines.

Digital is also become my preferred method of getting certain overseas publications. Paying individual mail prices from Germany or Japan on some magazine subscriptions almost put them up to the cost of a White Dwarf subscription (almost - but not quite).

While I have (and love) an iPad, I wouldn't go with a digital edition for so many reasons.

GW won't publicly commit to NOT providing physical issues in the future with posters/inserts/etc. I'd hate to subscribe to a digital edition, and then lose out on some 'free stuff' from GW. This is largely a pipe dream, but I have framed the Landraider/Stompa/etc. posters from White dwarf, and I have a ton of the old cardstock buildings provided in them.


GW isn't willing to go on record about access to my files. What if they decide to shift formats, etc? While my physical WD are vulnerable to fire/flood/theft, I don't know if GW reserves the rights to take away my access to my digital files.

I can't loan it out for a friend to read, without handing over my iPad. I love Paizo's digital formats, which are just PDFs with no DRM. The PDF is watermarked with your email and id, so if you upload it for pirates, they know who is giving away their crap, but if you send it to a friend to read, that's between you and them, so long as your friend isn't sharing it on the web. This also allows me to cut n' paste a choice bit of a rulebook to send to a friend/one of my players, with no problems.

Over-engineering. While the Digital editions look great and very cool, I'd much rather have a PDF with none of the rotating bells and whistles. I'd like to read the same damn magazine I already wanted to read. I don't need you to 'reinvent it' for the digital age, especially when doing so makes it a huge freaking file and doesn't cut the costs substantially.

GW Extinction. If GW goes belly up, what happens to my White Dwarfs? TSR (and then WOTC) published Dragon Magazine, which went tits up. I don't know what happened to the schmoes who had digital editions, but I still have my bagged copies from the 80's in boxes right now. I don't want GW to fail (which is why I am so hard on them), but I also want to be able to read stuff and remember the 'good old days' if it does.

I would love to buy a good, stable, DRM-free, reasonably sized digital edition. What I'd REALLY like is for GW to follow the lead of National Geographic or Smithsonian, and give you the digital edition AND the physical edition with a subscription to the print edition. I would subscribe in a heartbeat for that one. I wouldn't even need the huge freebie of being allowed to buy a White Dwarf model each year.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

my only gripe is that the files are huge, and will quickly eat up space...
you can delete each issue, and then download them again for free at any time, so it's not such a big deal...
my next ipad will definitely be 30 gigs, instead of 16, for sure...

That's why it is nice to have a tablet that takes memory cards...oh, wait - GW digital products are iStuff only.

Barring that and speaking more to digital in general - it depends on the format. I don't buy digital that I do not actually own. None of these wonky have to connect to a server to use them. Sometimes I am on a plane or other location that that isn't a possibility... Sometimes I just want to archive a big bunch of files to some Blue Ray discs and stick them in the file cabinet till I need them again.

If a magazine/book offers a two-fer option (both paper and digital) I will generally take them up on that. I still like to have paper, but again - if I am traveling for a bit...I don't want to have to haul around 15-20 pounds of books and magazines.

Digital is also become my preferred method of getting certain overseas publications. Paying individual mail prices from Germany or Japan on some magazine subscriptions almost put them up to the cost of a White Dwarf subscription (almost - but not quite).

actually, the fact that i don't have to have an internet connection to read my digital Dwarf is a selling point for me...
i also like the bells and whistles of the mag...
i could do without the embedded post battle report video(it's a huge file), but i love the embedded 360 views, and the zoom and scroll optiond for the pics...
all things i can enjoy without an internet connection...

obviously, this format is not everyone's cup of tea, but i'm a satisfied customer, and i saved some money that can go towards more Infinity minis...

cheers
jah

If the digital version was available in something other than iOS then maybe it'd be worthwhile, but until that happens the print edition would always be better IMO.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the digital version was available in something other than iOS then maybe it'd be worthwhile, but until that happens the print edition would always be better IMO.

This. Bring it to Android or my PC and let me buy individual articles(the only thing in there worth reading IMO is Blanchitsu), and GW will start getting my money again. Otherwise, I'll buy physical ones on the rare occasion they have something useful in them like rules, because a digital subscription doesn't look like such a good deal when you have to fork out £200 for Apple drek to even access it.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the digital version was available in something other than iOS then maybe it'd be worthwhile, but until that happens the print edition would always be better IMO.

This. Bring it to Android or my PC and let me buy individual articles(the only thing in there worth reading IMO is Blanchitsu), and GW will start getting my money again. Otherwise, I'll buy physical ones on the rare occasion they have something useful in them like rules, because a digital subscription doesn't look like such a good deal when you have to fork out £200 for Apple drek to even access it.

isn't it the iOS that gives the iBooks all the bells and whistles???
ii could be wrong, but that is what i read when the whole desifn idea was explained...

as for PC, i prefer the touch screen interaction of the iPad, by far...
as for it being expensive dreck, i have never spent a dime on apple products, but i love the convenience of my iPod and iPad...
they save a lot of space and weight....

obviously, if you are anti-Apple, then this is not your cup of tea...
i, for one, am completely stoked with the new technology...

cheers
jah

No, you can actually do pretty much everything that iBooks does using the current PDF format and most of it using modern eBook standards (like the KF8 or EPUB). With the newer eBook formats, they can work out almost anything you put on a website...which would include all sorts of interactive flash and other widgets.

They chose iStuff...well, most likely because they believe it is secure, though I have seen a couple of the iStuff exclusive releases in other formats already...so, I am guessing that didn't work out too well for them. The other issue of course is that Apple likes to charge premium prices, Amazon and Google like to offer deals on products sent through their distribution channels. GW would not approve of any sort of sale...so, they will likely not happen under the current management.

Hmmm... Storage is certainly a concern. Digital WD is a huge file, usually nearing 500MB. The post battle report video is a neat idea, but in practice is terrible (creates needlessly large files) and desperately needs removed.

The 360 views also should be removed. Not sure how much they add to the file size, but what is obvious is that the WD team use them as a 'content cop-out'. This is where the digital version lacks content over paper. Rather than place the beautiful multi page spreads in the digital version they put in the 360 views. It's honestly quite insulting, I can go to the website to see the 360, don't make me pay for it.

Now that I think about it... There's a plethora of links throughout the digital version trying to sell you what's being displayed.

Yea, I think I've made my decision. The paper mag is the better choice.

Paper all the way for me there is something really boring about looking at text on screens that after a few minutes I cant stand it anymore ( maybe that is because I look at them all day at work.) Also digital content seems to have zero value down the road while an old mag in 10 years time has that old groovy oldschool vibe going on.

Other major thing IMO is that if I'm going to check digital content some clicks on the free www will get me results... for free... So at least with paper I dont mind paying for a physical version of what we see on the web.

@ Sean: i don't have any PDF's that have the enlarge and zoom options on any of the photos in those files...
just a tidbit that i like in the digimag...
also, the embedded slideshows and videos a a fun feature...

@Oni: each issue is just under 400 megs...
still a huge file...
i do still see the multi-pic spreads, which can be clicked on for bigger pics...
some things, like the 360's are on GW's site, but the digimag saves me when there is no internet available (remember, i live in the third world, where services are not always dependable)...

@Navarro: where on the GW site can i find the Blanchitsu articles, or the Golden Demon reports...
GW seems to have stopped hosting GD winners on their site, and they are only in the mag now...
i could be wrong, but i feel like i'm getting exclusive content in the mag, and it's nice to get it the day of release instead of sending friends to a shop, and then waiting for them to come visit a few months down the line...

all in all, i'm glad i have the option of the digimag...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@ Sean: i don't have any PDF's that have the enlarge and zoom options on any of the photos in those files...
just a tidbit that i like in the digimag...
also, the embedded slideshows and videos a a fun feature...

You don't have any - but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

In PDF files, that can be handled with something like a Pan & Zoom overlay or embedded flash. Embedded Flash can handle videos and pretty much any other form of interactivity you can think of. Not sure if Apple had managed to get over their issue with flash though...and I seem to recall them having issues with properly rendering Pan & Zoom on some of their earlier iStuff.

Take a look at some of these older Harbinger Magazines, as they made a fair use of the bells and whistles available at the time (and remember - those are 6 or 7 years old now).

http://web.archive.org/web/20080420194221/http://www.harbingermagazine.com/downloads.htm

 jah-joshua wrote:


@Navarro: where on the GW site can i find the Blanchitsu articles, or the Golden Demon reports...
GW seems to have stopped hosting GD winners on their site, and they are only in the mag now...
i could be wrong, but i feel like i'm getting exclusive content in the mag, and it's nice to get it the day of release instead of sending friends to a shop, and then waiting for them to come visit a few months down the line...

Not only you can see most GD's reports a bit everywhere online but each community of painters has its own forums, some have their own blogs not only showing pics but tuts how they have completed their entries... hell some do even have detailed wips etc... Its a non argument... Just because its not on GW site it does not mean its not online, heck I have not read a good painting or sculpting tut from GW in almost a decade? Yet everyday online I learn something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One example http://demonwinner.free.fr/

@Sean: thanks, man...
i'll have to check out the digital Harbingers...
i bought all of their print issues back in the day, along with the limited minis...
great guys, to boot...

@Navarro: i'm not trying to present an argument, brother, just an opinion...
the only thing i haven't found online are the Blanchitsu articles, which i like...
i love, and appreciate, all of the different French, Spanish, Italian, German, English, and American Golden Demon wips and reports...
yes, they are easy to find online, but in Mexico we lose our internet and electricity quite regularly...
having stuff i can read on a fully charged iPad when the lights go out is important to me...
i have other free pdf mags such as Portal, Wyrd, Dust, and many more, which are even cooler as they are free...

i love Demonwinner, too...
i'm even on there, being a Demon winner myself...
all i'm saying is i like to be able to look at minis when the internet is down, too...

i still love print...
i have over 300 issue of White Dwarf, No Quarter from issue #1, and three or four other companies' mags...
i'm just not unhappy about having the digital option these days...
those boxes of print mags stack up quick!!!

cheers
jah

I see your point about power failure and internet issues, I have not considered that, you know when you are spoiled like me with good connections you tend o take things for granted. Yeah in that case stored digital content is even more important.

The paper one is far better. I can't wipe my bum with an iPad....

I like the digital version much more and can't see myself going back.

Much like jah-Joshua I wasnt aware that a PDF could do all the scrolling, video embedding, 3D rotations and the like. Anyone have some samples I can try out, as it would have a lot of application for me at work?

I hesitate to say you're silly with all the "what if it..." arguments, but it's kind of silly, isn't it? What if your physical WD gets wet. What if you have a fire. What if your wife actually throws one away..etc.

With all that being said, I totally get the appeal of physical formats. The tactile nature of them is familiar, etc. I still have trouble letting go of physical copies of books and I'm still purchasing hard copy blu rays, despite the fact that I like digital formats better. I think it's that desire to have "stuff" that is pretty common in our hobby. It's much cooler to see a bookshelf full of books and magazines than it is to say, "look at my cloud bookshelf".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The paper one is far better. I can't wipe my bum with an iPad....

Sure you can. There's an app for that.

 cincydooley wrote:

Much like jah-Joshua I wasnt aware that a PDF could do all the scrolling, video embedding, 3D rotations and the like. Anyone have some samples I can try out, as it would have a lot of application for me at work?

Would have to dig around a bit - I linked to the Harbinger site above, as I know they had several of the features (don't think they did any 3D turn around bits...but that can be done with embedded flash and either a real 3D model or using the same method on the GW website - as PDF files also support the vast majority of HTML markups now as well). The Adobe site has a bunch of examples, though in their training sections for Adobe Acrobat and In Design.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the digital version was available in something other than iOS then maybe it'd be worthwhile, but until that happens the print edition would always be better IMO.

This. Bring it to Android or my PC and let me buy individual articles(the only thing in there worth reading IMO is Blanchitsu), and GW will start getting my money again. Otherwise, I'll buy physical ones on the rare occasion they have something useful in them like rules, because a digital subscription doesn't look like such a good deal when you have to fork out £200 for Apple drek to even access it.

isn't it the iOS that gives the iBooks all the bells and whistles???
ii could be wrong, but that is what i read when the whole desifn idea was explained...

as for PC, i prefer the touch screen interaction of the iPad, by far...
as for it being expensive dreck, i have never spent a dime on apple products, but i love the convenience of my iPod and iPad...
they save a lot of space and weight....

obviously, if you are anti-Apple, then this is not your cup of tea...
i, for one, am completely stoked with the new technology...

cheers
jah

I'm not "anti-Apple" per se, I dislike their business model, their reliance on marketing over substance, and they have so far failed to offer anything I can't find on other platforms for less money and with less DRM, and on that basis I refuse to purchase their products. If you can get them for free, lovely, but most of us either have to fork out retail prices, or else tie ourselves into ludicrously long mobile phone contracts which lock you in to using Apple products for the duration(since they tend to only offer newer iPhones as upgrades). If you prefer touch interactivity, again, good for you, but I won't pay more money for less functionality; anything a touchscreen can do, a keyboard and mouse can do, but the reverse is not true. The simple fact is until we have true VR or volumetric interactive 3D projection display with haptic interface, anything other than keyboard and mouse will remain a fad, outside of specific professional applications.

Others have already neatly dealt with the idea that Apple iBooks offer anything special over other, more open formats.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:


@Navarro: where on the GW site can i find the Blanchitsu articles, or the Golden Demon reports...
GW seems to have stopped hosting GD winners on their site, and they are only in the mag now...
i could be wrong, but i feel like i'm getting exclusive content in the mag, and it's nice to get it the day of release instead of sending friends to a shop, and then waiting for them to come visit a few months down the line...

Not only you can see most GD's reports a bit everywhere online but each community of painters has its own forums, some have their own blogs not only showing pics but tuts how they have completed their entries... hell some do even have detailed wips etc... Its a non argument... Just because its not on GW site it does not mean its not online, heck I have not read a good painting or sculpting tut from GW in almost a decade? Yet everyday online I learn something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One example http://demonwinner.free.fr/

On that note, do you happen to know where I can find the 2012 demon winners?