Dawn of War not canon?

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**TimmyTheNerd**

Was talking to a few friends the other day and they said that the Dawn of War games (as well as any of the Warhammer 40k games made by THQ) isn't canon. I was wondering why? They didn't give me any answer other than the games were made by THQ and not directly made by GW, therefore they don't count as canon...

**Super Ready**

In before "everything is canon and nothing is canon".

Well, why wouldn't it be? Blood Ravens have appeared numerous times in White Dwarf and also in some of the Codex fluff since the DoW games. While GW didn't write it, they did have some creative input during the game's creation. It'd be impossible to know who created what fluff without a direct quote.
Plus, during its first few years the Black Library was a separate company and therefore not technically GW. They're still considered canon.

Then there's the fact that nothing in the games has been contradicted by anything from GW. Relic were careful not to use existing locations and picked an unused Chapter for exactly this reason.

(One thing you should know - the game was actually developed by Relic Entertainment, THQ only published it, which basically means providing the cash, marketing and other necessities for development to go ahead. This means that while THQ would have had some say in the game's content, they're very unlikely to have exercised any control over fluff aspects.)

**-Loki-**

Relic actually admitted their games take place during an alternate timeline. They're canon in and of themselves, but not with the greater 40k fluff, at least according to the people that actually wrote them. This goes for Space Marine as well.

**ArbitorIan**

Excerpt from Ian's Standard Forum Answers, circa M3...

What is official GW canon? What books count and what are fanfic? Has my favourite bit of fluff been 'retconned'?

The short answer is simple. GW are not Marvel. There is no retconning and no 'official canon'. Even if two sources completely disagree, there's a good chance they're BOTH correct. GW own Forge World and Black Library. They are different subsidaries of the same company. They then licence to THQ and Fantasy Flight Games. Therefore, everything any of these companies release could be said to be 'authorised' by GW and is just as important as the other.

GW have deliberately invented a world where literally anything can happen. And when they write in that world, they do it from the point of view of one of the factions, all of whom have terrible 'intelligence' and are incredibly biased. This means that any piece of written text is suspect. It may have happened, or it may have been different. When they do rewrite a codex, they usually clarify rather than directly contradict themselves.

For example, in the very early 40k novel 'Space Marine', Imperial Fists scouts are shown training with lasguns. In all fluff since, we know that scouts use boltguns and have never been since with lasguns. However, this doesn't mean that the Imperial Fists NEVER EVER use a lasgun for training. Or that, at a partcular period in the ten thousand year history of the chapter, scouts have NEVER touched a lasgun. It has not been 'retconned'.

The reason for this deliberate ambiguity is so that players have more variety to choose from when theming their army. Given the evidence from this book, I might model MY Imperial Fists scouts with lascarbines and mohicans, and count the lasguns as shotguns. My army would be more unique because of it. This is a good thing.

**4TheG8erGood**

I'll leave this here, since I made the last thread that everyone says pops up too often...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/513428.page

A nice 4 page discussion on what is and isn't cannon in 40k.

**Corporal_Reznov**

-Loki- wrote:
Relic actually admitted their games take place during an alternate timeline. They're canon in and of themselves, but not with the greater 40k fluff, at least according to the people that actually wrote them. This goes for Space Marine as well.

I may have missed something but unless I'm mistaken, that only applies to the Space Marine video game which.

DOW still applies to greater 40k fluff, though I'm sure Lynata will come in saying there is no canon, which is true, by posting his quotes and then starts bitching about the codexes

.

Anyway, here is what i have to say about this topic:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
I voted for "Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library + FFG + DOW, etc" cause it and "Everything... yet nothing" are the same.

Anyway I will put this to you, the 6th edition rulebook has this on the galaxy map:

As you can see, the galaxy map has the Calixis sector on it. Calixis sector was created by FFG. FFG features the Blood Ravens and Red Scorpion in their Deathwatch rpg. They will also feature the Tanith First and Only in their Only War rpg.

The Different FFG settings are all linked together. Blood Ravens are from the DOW games. Red Scorpions are from FW. Tanith first and only are from BL.

So ergo, All FFG material, FW, DOW and BL are canon.

The only thing I have an exception in not taking is the crap written by Goto. I will accept it, with reluctance! I believe in taking the video game fluff as was shown in the video games over the novels written by Goto for the video games.

Anyway, new fluff takes precedence and even retcons older fluff.

**BlaxicanX**

Inb4 Lynata everything is canon nothing is canon.

**DarthMarko**

So their omnibus isn't canon too?

**Brother Captain Alexander**

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
Was talking to a few friends the other day and they said that the Dawn of War games (as well as any of the Warhammer 40k games made by THQ) isn't cannon. I was wondering why? They didn't give me any answer other than the games were made by THQ and not directly made by GW, therefore they don't count as cannon...

They are canon, as far as GW and Relic are concerned.
The only problem is with DoW games that have multiple endings, this is main reason why people call them non-canonical.

Canon goes like this:
Winter Assault, mix of Imperial Guard/Eldar and Ork ending.
Dark Crusade: Space Marines.
Soulstorm: Imperial Guard.
DoW II: CR: Avitus was traitor, and FC was probably expelled on a penance crusade with Thadeus and Thule joining him.
DoW II: R: not yet decided, but heavy hints toward Space Marine one.

**DarthMarko**

Avitus is a traitor??? Naaah...he's the only cool one....

**Furyou Miko**

I beg to differ. Cyrus is far more awesome than Avitus.

"We don't talk about Kaurava."

**Lynata**

You rang?

I'll just quote myself from the last "is DoW canon" thread:

Lynata wrote:
DOOMBREAD wrote:So, my question is, should DoW be considered canon?
*bust out ye olde tome o' quotes*

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

In short, "canon" in 40k is an urban myth that keeps getting propagated within the fandom in spite of what the very creators of the material have to say on the subject.
Official fluff is official, and a Codex is just as valid as a novel or FFG's RPG - but all this material is by no means meant to tie into each other and will quite often contradict itself. Plus, as per Gav's blog, fan-fiction is just as valid. It's all just numerous different takes on the same subject - the grimdark 41st millennium. There is no universal truth, and hence nothing can also be truly "wrong". It comes down to personal preferences and us, the fans, cherrypicking what we like/dislike.

If anyone wants to read into this further, ADB actually replied in a thread here on dakka how this is supposed to work out, and delivered another quote from Marc Gascoigne (senior editor, black library) as he did so. It's linked in my above citation; just click on the name. It's very valuable input, I think, because we as fans do not often get to hear that much detail from "inside GW".

-Loki- wrote:Relic actually admitted their games take place during an alternate timeline.

Actually, this was only for their Space Marine game, in what seems like a cop-out excuse for them having a different 2nd Company Captain than the Codex said.

**TimmyTheNerd**

So, treat Warhammer's 'cannon' like most long running comic book series? Like in comics, everything seems to change (such as adding or removing super powers, changing origin stories and so on) with every new person who gets their hands on the material, but yet everything is considered 'cannon' in Comics, most companies use a multiverse explanation but you guys get my point, right?

**Lynata**

Sort of.

The way it was explained for 40k isn't "multiverses" but rather that everything we read is different people's account of one and the same setting ... twisted by legends and propaganda (thus explaining any contradictions).

From the thread I linked:

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne

**Sturmtruppen**

Cannon

Not cannon

**Furyou Miko**

That would have worked better if you'd spelled Canon right the second time, Sturm...

**Robinson92**

Slap your friends, and then ask them how "Games Workshop" writes anything when it doesn't have hands.

Then as them should we discount anything from black library as 'not cannon' because A) Black Library when written down does not say Games Workshop and B) Dan Abnett is also not "Games Workshop"

Sturmtruppen has the right idea

**Corporal_Reznov**

Furyou Miko wrote:
That would have worked better if you'd spelled Canon right the second time, Sturm...

It would be if I could see Sturm's first pic due to it being broken.

**Psienesis**

In the canon of my version of 40K, the surviving members of the Blood Ravens have been sent on a Penitent Crusade for two thousand years, denied the right to take on new members, until their complicity in the actions that destroyed 2 Imperial systems is atoned for.

... or, alternately, the Sisters of Battle purged them at the end of Soulstorm. Depends on how I'm feeling that day.

**Sturmtruppen**

Furyou Miko wrote:
That would have worked better if you'd spelled Canon right the second time, Sturm...

I'm not here to judge whether it's canon or not, but I can confirm that Dawn of War is not a cannon, unlike the cannon that I showed you.

**BattleCapIronblood**

Sturmtruppen wrote:

Cannon

Not cannon

Brilliant, mate.

**Arcsquad12**

The only things regarding Relic games that are not Canon are C.S Goto's writing abominations.

Relic might state that Space Marine isn't canon, but there is an easy solution. Put Space Marine in M42, since it is after Retribution which was M42 already, and have another forge world called Graia. The Graia eaten by Tyranids was in Segmentum Tempestus I believe. SM Graia is in Ultima Segmentum, hence the Ultramarines and Blood Ravens.

**Lynata**

Arcsquad12 wrote:The only things regarding Relic games that are not Canon are C.S Goto's writing abominations.

You say that as if there was some sort of official announcement somewhere.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Arcsquad12 wrote:

Relic might state that Space Marine isn't canon, but there is an easy solution. Put Space Marine in M42, since it is after Retribution which was M42 already, and have another forge world called Graia. The Graia eaten by Tyranids was in Segmentum Tempestus I believe. SM Graia is in Ultima Segmentum, hence the Ultramarines and Blood Ravens.

This.

I accepted this explanation for SM canon, what is more hilarious this theory is supporting DoW game that has gone 10+ years into M42'nd. Where Blood Ravens appear in game and use Angelo's new Chapter battle cry "None shall find us wanting".

**Arcsquad12**

Lynata wrote:
Arcsquad12 wrote:The only things regarding Relic games that are not Canon are C.S Goto's writing abominations.
You say that as if there was some sort of official announcement somewhere.

There was. It was announced in the back of my brain aroudn the time he decided Terminators could do backflips and D-Cannons fired bullets.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Arcsquad12 wrote:

There was. It was announced in the back of my brain aroudn the time he decided Terminators could do backflips and D-Cannons fired bullets.

And let us not forget flipping Terminators and transforming Land Raiders

**Arcsquad12**

Or Alpha Legion Ultramarines in Winter Assault. The hell is he on about?

Or the Tyranid spore mine turning into a tentacle monster that drags people away instead of just, you know, exploding like they were created to do.

**Furyou Miko**

Or Eldar committing suicide by breaking their soulstones?

How about Assault Marines beating bio-titans in dogfights?

**VorpalBunny74**

I vaguely remember a quote that everything is 'Canon' but not everything is 'True'. Which can explain why the Emperor was shielded from Horus by Ollanius Pius, OR a Space Marine Terminator, OR an Adeptus Custode, depending on the story.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was also Sister in the next SoB codex. Or a brave but confused Grot in the next Ork codex

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Furyou Miko wrote:

How about Assault Marines beating bio-titans in dogfights?

We have seen crazier stuff happens ( Magun Ra ) so this one is quite possible even by 40k standards.