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Heyo!

I was thinking of running Creed in a 1999+1 list and I was wondering what your opinions of him are? Hes got a great model (go space Patton!)

Do you believe that Kell is an auto take with him since it gives you a regimental standard and a "vox network"? Granted he is expensive but it seems like something that could be useful.

The honour of cadia, would you run this on a fat guard blob with plasma, or are blobs pretty much dead these days anyway?

Tactical Genius. I only ever hear about this being used to outflank demolishers. As i have a terrible time with outflanking, do you guys ever try scouting a large guard blob on the edge of deployment or use it to move a PiS or HWS into a more advantageous position?

Or should i just buy two CCS and put them on either end of a long Aegis?

Creed lends himself well to a foot-based army. He doesn't really want to be near combat, so he's probably best with a Regimental Standard + Lascannon and maybe a Plasmagun or Sniper Rifle to round out the special weapons.

That said, I think he's too expensive to be worth taking unfortunately.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Creed lends himself well to a foot-based army. He doesn't really want to be near combat, so he's probably best with a Regimental Standard + Lascannon and maybe a Plasmagun or Sniper Rifle to round out the special weapons.

That said, I think he's too expensive to be worth taking unfortunately.

Yeah,. the point cost just seemed too much, he will however, make an excellent Company Commander at least

Outflank demolishes screw that noise

Outflank an imperator. Make your opponent scream "CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!"


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Creed is the reason abaddon cries himself to sleep

Ha!



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But seriously... I love Creed! At 1999+pts, if you have 4+ units you want to give orders to, you should have him. I feel you don't need Kell, as if you have HWSs your giving orders to, you should be using a Lord Commissar to put them within his Aura of Discipline or you should have blobs with Commissars in them for Orders. Besides, you throw that Lord Commissar on the Quad gun/Icarus LC of a ADL with a Camo Cloak and he is doing double service for you and using that BS 5 in a effective manner. You throw in a Astropath and you take uncle Al and you can pull off two outflanking blobs... or even have Outflanking Vendettas again (as long as they are in a squad). Just make sure to protect that CCS and don't skimp on stuff like Camo Cloaks, specially if they are sitting behind that ADL. I agree with the LC+Standard+Plasma load-out.

I also find that Creed and Straken can be a really good combination if your actually looking at doing an assault list. It can be rough since IG suck at CC for the most part, but it can really take players by surprise, specially when you charge them first firing flamers or meltas with a blob. To bad Furious Charge doesn't give +1 Init anymore

Creeds really fun to use. Hes only good with foot lists though to be honest. Use somewhere between 2+ platoons so he has plenty of units to give orders too. Make sure you have some sort of unit that outflanks too. Maybe have 2 platoons on the field and then outflank another platoon.

1.Take Al'Rahem.

2.Take Creed, don't forget Kell.

3.Take as many infantry as possible, Chenkov is mandatory for conscript shenanigans

4. Bring Marbo (like you weren't already)

5.??????

6. Profit

I have to say, Creed, Like Aun'Va of the Undying Spirit, makes the entire list better.

His order For the Honor of Cadia is uber. He can parcel out a LOT of orders just on his own to a massive radius. Lascannons are twinlinking, dudes are re-rolling cover successes against your fussilade, the freaking blob squads are peeing in poples cheerios while they look the heavens fist clenched with a "WHY???" look on their face and you're basically awesome.

Tactically, he takes away the enemies inherent stat advantage when they go a'chargin' He himself, though certainly no Riptide Battlsuit, can be surrounded by some tougher hombre's and abltaive wounds to keep him as NOt an independent character for a while and not challengable. So in the end, you are in good shape with that dude.

I've not really neeed Kell to make Creed good. While the advantages of Kell are obvious, the points seem worth it only on occassion. In the meantime he hampers your number of other options which could have an EQUAL and more FREQUENT impact on the battles.
so... Creed for the win.

 Jancoran wrote:

His order For the Honor of Cadia is uber.

It's not that good, really.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

His order For the Honor of Cadia is uber.

It's not that good, really.

Only thing I could see it being really helpful would be with Rough Riders (almost made it through that with a straight face) and doing shenanigans with conscripts to tie up deathstars. With furious charge and fearless, they'll tie down a pesky deathstar for their following turn, and then is practically guaranteed to get swept next turn and let you shoot them. And if you went full slow and made sure they're SITNW conscripts as well, it's literally no skin off your bones.

That said, this is more of a troll strategy than something you would see at Adepticon. Would still be hilarious to watch your opponent's reaction though, especially since Creed/kell will mean even the idiots that are conscripts will pass their leadership test most of the time.

 Jancoran wrote:
I have to say, Creed, Like Aun'Va of the Undying Spirit, makes the entire list better.

Wait. Did someone really just say "Aun'Va" and "makes the entire list better" in the same sentence?

Someone throw another ball for Peregrine. Lol.

Yeah. Aun'Va makes his entire army better. A little expensive, but he he does what I said he does. Read his rules. I've used him. Makes a wilty army into a not so wilty army that isable to hold the line a lot better, to stop the inexorable march of enemies through their number. so yes. Better.

As for Creed, the actual ball we were all playing with as compared to the one you're chasing Peregrine, Creed is very very good. Makes the IG do what they do better. Can't see a downside to that.

It should be pointed out that General Myndoras Odon, from IA11, is an excellent alternative to Creed for those seeking access to more Orders. While he doesn't do everything that Creed offers, he comes at a pretty significant discount.

...the collection of wargear for his command squad is a bit...eclectic, however.

 Jancoran wrote:


As for Creed, the actual ball we were all playing with as compared to the one you're chasing Peregrine, Creed is very very good. Makes the IG do what they do better. Can't see a downside to that.

He lets you melee better (not what IG does.)

and gives you 4 orders for a higher pricetag than 2 CCS' (and thus 4 orders and several more wounds and more heavy/special weapon slots).

Orders make IG do what they do better. Creed isn't the route to get more orders.

You're neglecting the fact that Creed also has a larger radius to issue orders. A 24" circle is twice as large as two 12" circles. I'm not saying it justifies the additional expense, but it is a factor.

Corollax wrote:
You're neglecting the fact that Creed also has a larger radius to issue orders. A 24" circle is twice as large as two 12" circles. I'm not saying it justifies the additional expense, but it is a factor.

Ehh. If you have stuff that far away, you move CCS #2 closer to it. 2 CCS' allows unit dispersion, rather than counting on one unit for all of your orders. Creed's unit gets hit by a Str6 or higher large blast, good chance all your orders are gone.

*looks at the smoking crater where Creed's CCS used to be*

And this is why I didn't say he justifies the additional expense.

Corollax wrote:
You're neglecting the fact that Creed also has a larger radius to issue orders. A 24" circle is twice as large as two 12" circles. I'm not saying it justifies the additional expense, but it is a factor.

Though this is really a theoretical advantage since a large part of Creed's 24" order circle is going to be off the back edge of the table. In terms of relevant table area covered the dual CCS option is a lot closer.


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 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah. Aun'Va makes his entire army better. A little expensive, but he he does what I said he does. Read his rules. I've used him.

I've read his rules. I do play Tau as well as IG, after all. Aun'va is by far the worst character in the game. You pay 155 points more than a standard ethereal for a WORSE ability (replacing the awesome re-roll ability with the utterly useless stubborn rule), which often makes your army worse (since stubborn makes you more likely to be locked in combat when you want to break and leave the opposing unit open to shooting). Meanwhile your "price of failure" weak point is now on a unit that is no longer an independent character and therefore unable to hide in a unit that won't immediately get shot off the table.

TBH, I'd rather just remove 205 points from my list and have nothing at all than put Aun'va on the table.

Makes a wilty army into a not so wilty army that isable to hold the line a lot better, to stop the inexorable march of enemies through their number. so yes. Better.

You know what else does that, does it better, and costs 155 points less? A standard ethereal.

As for Creed, the actual ball we were all playing with as compared to the one you're chasing Peregrine, Creed is very very good. Makes the IG do what they do better. Can't see a downside to that.

The downside is 90 points. Creed is terrible because he costs a lot of points while adding very little to your army. His special order is terrible (fearless is pointless when even basic commissars already give you a 97% chance of passing a leadership test, and furious charge is worthless) and his improved order radius and extra orders are worse than taking two CCS, so you're paying 90 points to outflank a single unit.

I take Creed because I want a Lord Commissar (with a Camo Cloak, on my Icarus LC or Quad gun, possibly getting Orders from Creed to 'Fire on my Target' to ignore Flyer cover saves) in my second HQ slot to give his Aura of Discipline to my HWSs to make them Ld 10 for the Orders I am giving them to 'Bring it Down' or /ignore/ cover saves (not re-roll successful ones) with 'Fire on my Target!'. If I /really/ want to do Orders and have multiple 20 man blobs, I want Creed and a /second/ CCS to pull off 6 Orders a turn. I do not need 6 Orders a turn, 4 does the job and 24" radius covers my entire deployment zone

Man... you guys have to look at the big picture sometimes. Yes, he is expensive. Yes, Furious Charge sucks now because... well, assault is dead in 6th, so is mech. The interwebs sayz so! But so is giving your 30 man blob a Commissar and giving them all (now Str 5) power axes and charging into someone and saying, "Sure... Sergeant Able will die to your challenge, but Sergeants Beta, Charlie, and Commissar T-Bag are tearing up your squad with 9-12 attacks at AP 2. Our Priest with the Str 7 Chainfist (and 3 extra AP 2 attacks) here is telling us we get to re-roll misses on the charge. Suck it, suck it hard." Oh, the loss of Init is killing us here. Like the Init 4 was the bomb in 5th. It was AP 2 Powerswords and swinging before the Fists swing.... could have been Init 2 for all we cared. Heck, if your clever, you don't even have to be close enough to issue or receive a challenge and can still get your licks in on the Pile in phase at Init 1.

Oh, on top of that, do you want to Outflank with your Demolisher? How about your Vendetta (squadron???)? Remember those days? Creed does this and that is huge IMO. Oh, I am sure there is some Forgeworld experimental rule sorcery HQ that does this too that is cheaper... but Creed is in my Codex and that is what I am using.

I've always wanted to try the Forgeworld Patton wannabe, I just could never find out which book his rules are in. He's actually cheap enough to be useful from what i've heard, and he can take a dedicated valkyrie, which is sweet.

As for Creed, he's tons of fun and cool in friendly games, but he's so expensive for what he does you don't see him in "serious" lists for a reason. Guys at the tourney level take units that are as cheap as possible to maximize firepower. Taking a character that costs almost twice as much as the unit you buy him for that adds little real firepower to your list is the exact opposite of what they want.

He's hardly the worst buy in the book. he's just WAY to expensive for what he does and for what unit he's in. If he's going to get used, he either needs a decent point reduction (60pts or so would probably be a fair price), or become an IC so he could form a retinue to keep him alive.

The fearless order does have some decent uses. If you have something rampaging around your lines, charge a fearless squad at them. As long as they are not wiped out, they will probably break in the enemy's turn and you get to shoot again. With stubborn you occasionally break in your own turn, which is horrible.

 Trickstick wrote:
The fearless order does have some decent uses. If you have something rampaging around your lines, charge a fearless squad at them. As long as they are not wiped out, they will probably break in the enemy's turn and you get to shoot again. With stubborn you occasionally break in your own turn, which is horrible.

Thats not a bad idea, I never thought about that and even adds to the expendable fluff of the guardsmen lol.

Corollax wrote:
You're neglecting the fact that Creed also has a larger radius to issue orders. A 24" circle is twice as large as two 12" circles. I'm not saying it justifies the additional expense, but it is a factor.

Precisely. Its a BIIIIIIIG radius with him. He allows you to deploy very much more freely.

People can SAY that for the Honor of Cadia isn't good if they want to. what do I care? But most blobs come with 4 Power Axe wielding sergeants and when that hits you ith For the Honor of Cadia, it just hurts. 3 attacks on the charge from those sergeants all at immense strength. Those 12 attacks on their own will be enough to level most squads they decide to attack, but the added STR for the rest of the dudes is insurance. This usually matters ONE round out of the game, but it nearly always is a big deal at that point in those games. Usually after the Sentinel has failed to hold the line and now it is up to the boys of the 501st to get the job done (or whatever fun fantasy you decide you like here).

I guess he sort of speaks for himself in games. Like every other component part of lists, he's not going to win it for you on his own. Heis, after all, a synergy character, so as his men go, so also does he. But his impact on them is pretty significant in my mind.






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 Peregrine wrote:

I've read his rules. I do play Tau as well as IG, after all. Aun'va is by far the worst character in the game. You pay 155 points more than a standard ethereal for a WORSE ability (replacing the awesome re-roll ability with the utterly useless stubborn rule), which often makes your army worse (since stubborn makes you more likely to be locked in combat when you want to break and leave the opposing unit open to shooting). Meanwhile your "price of failure" weak point is now on a unit that is no longer an independent character and therefore unable to hide in a unit that won't immediately get shot off the table.

TBH, I'd rather just remove 205 points from my list and have nothing at all than put Aun'va on the table.
.

Again Peregrine, you need to be more imaginative. You don't play Aun'Va in the same style army you play now and one doubts you really ever even tried him out.

I've seen your other posts on Tau and you give the impression that you play basically the cookie cuttter version of Tau that NetListers evrywhere endorse. I am 100% supportive of you doing it. It's decent enough even though its not winning any tournies. But when Aun'Va is in the list, you use very different units and the entire game is different so those things you said are strengths, not weaknesses. Im not going to turn this into a clinic on how to use him. That's for another thread, probably a list building one ironically.

What I will say is different between the two is that with CREED, you can play esentially your normal list, as he fits pretty well into all of them. He doesn't really call for a different build very much. His four orders will be useful nearly every round in all but the most extreme lopsided versions of IG. One thing I like about Creed is this universally useful role he can play and how well he allows you to deploy.

TACTICALLY speaking (which inclues deployment) a nomal force will be more tightly packed in order to take orders. This creates a central "hub" where all the units are sort of vulnerable to disordered charges and the like. The hub also is like a ball and chain around the leg of units that want to move, becaue the bubble of the commander is smaller. So the net result is that you kind of are limited in how to deploy and it can leave you vulnerable to outflankers. Terrain also can be more impactful because you're now dealing with LOS blocking more often when clustered, potentially made worse by a LACK of terrain or an overabundance of it, depending on how your army build looks.

As a good example of this restriction I played a 101 Space marien list that was combat squad'd like crazy (objectives no KP's) with Tau, I was able to Pin his front units frequently enough that moving around them cost him dearly and he ended up kinda being unable to bring his full force to bear. The IG can experience this same thing if they can't ue more of the board.

Thee are just things you have to consider when looking at Creeds value to you. it goes further than just one ordr he can give. He's regrouping your units with that radius too! That's no small thing. He's making units RUN faster with the radius which is no small thing. He's cool.

 Jancoran wrote:

Corollax wrote:
You're neglecting the fact that Creed also has a larger radius to issue orders. A 24" circle is twice as large as two 12" circles. I'm not saying it justifies the additional expense, but it is a factor.

Precisely. Its a BIIIIIIIG radius with him. He allows you to deploy very much more freely.

People can SAY that for the Honor of Cadia isn't good if they want to. what do I care? But most blobs come with 4 Power Axe wielding sergeants and when that hits you ith For the Honor of Cadia, it just hurts. 3 attacks on the charge from those sergeants all at immense strength. Those 12 attacks on their own will be enough to level most squads they decide to attack, but the added STR for the rest of the dudes is insurance. This usually matters ONE round out of the game, but it nearly always is a big deal at that point in those games. Usually after the Sentinel has failed to hold the line and now it is up to the boys of the 501st to get the job done (or whatever fun fantasy you decide you like here).

I guess he sort of speaks for himself in games. Like every other component part of lists, he's not going to win it for you on his own. Heis, after all, a synergy character, so as his men go, so also does he. But his impact on them is pretty significant in my mind.

It's not that big of an area, considering he'll be at the back of the board. You're really basically getting a 24" semicircle of orders, vs. Two 12" circles with more mobility.

Nor to mention Power axes are a waste of points. Strength 4, initiative 1, AP2 is soooooo lackluster. Even with furious charge, 12 attacks at AP1 is ehhhhhhh.



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 Jancoran wrote:

TACTICALLY speaking (which inclues deployment) a nomal force will be more tightly packed in order to take orders. This creates a central "hub" where all the units are sort of vulnerable to disordered charges and the like. The hub also is like a ball and chain around the leg of units that want to move, becaue the bubble of the commander is smaller.

You're paying 140 points for 4 orders that have to rely on one squad.

100 points gets 4 orders over two squads that you can spread out, and have more wounds and weapon slots.

 Jancoran wrote:
Precisely. Its a BIIIIIIIG radius with him. He allows you to deploy very much more freely.

Except that a big part of that 24" radius is going to be unavailable. Almost half of it is gone right away off the back edge of the table, and another big part of it is covering area outside of your deployment zone where you probably don't have any models. Meanwhile the two CCS you can buy for the same price give you two 12" circles which cover most of the same relevant area, but for fewer points and with better redundancy and weapon upgrade options.

Those 12 attacks on their own will be enough to level most squads they decide to attack, but the added STR for the rest of the dudes is insurance.

12 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds. Compared to 4 wounds without spending 90 points on Creed, and compared to 4.5 wounds from shooting the blob's lasguns instead of charging (even WITHOUT FRFSRF), which saves you another 40 points in power axes. I think the choice here is obvious.

Again Peregrine, you need to be more imaginative. You don't play Aun'Va in the same style army you play now and one doubts you really ever even tried him out.

Fine, you're the tactical genius, how about explaining exactly how Aun'va works in a list and how he performs that role better than a much cheaper standard ethereal.

 TheCaptain wrote:

It's not that big of an area, considering he'll be at the back of the board. You're really basically getting a 24" semicircle of orders, vs. Two 12" circles with more mobility.

Nor to mention Power axes are a waste of points. Strength 4, initiative 1, AP2 is soooooo lackluster. Even with furious charge, 12 attacks at AP1 is ehhhhhhh.

You're paying 140 points for 4 orders that have to rely on one squad.

100 points gets 4 orders over two squads that you can spread out, and have more wounds and weapon slots.

You're free to leave Creed wherever you feel you want to. But I don't see why you would claim he'll be flattening himself against the board edge like some cowardly lion. That would be, i guess, your style talking, and not his potential.

You're not PAYING 140 for Credd either. Thats exaggerating. You'd pay for the squad anyways.

12 Power axes striking at STR 5 is not... as you say... Lackluster. It's a death sentence. They are the icing on the proverbial cake. You're already attacking but now you have like... 40 STR 4 attacks and 12 Power axes at STR 5 whacking on a Marine unit. You don't think that's going to work out? You know of Hordes that would look forward ot that perhaps? I don't!

And if ALL Creed did was increase the wounds ONCE...maybe you'd be right. But he's NOT just doing that so why are you stating it as if that were hsi sole contribution? The squad they charge is gone. They won the combat, pushed the field and what more did you really want from them or any unit? Creed made the difference there. He can do it multiple times in a game, though he wont be called on to do so all the time. The units he saves from running ALONE could mean the game. The ones he rushes to the objectives near the end could be the game. Who knows,

The case for him seems pretty solid but if you think he's too expensive, then i guess that's the decision you gotta' make. Not like you can't run the list a different way or without him. But he's really good.

 Jancoran wrote:


The case for him seems pretty solid but if you think he's too expensive, then i guess that's the decision you gotta' make. Not like you can't run the list a different way or without him. But he's really good.

He's "really good" for melee IG.

Which isn't a good way to run IG.

40 Str4 attacks means 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead marines. 12 Power axes at str5 means 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead marines. 7.3 dead marines total.

Marines strike first, though. 11 Attacks, 7.3 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 dead guardsmen.

That's assuming you get the charge. If the marines are charging you, you lose combat by quite a lot.

Creed's squad is 140 points bare minimum. A 20 man blob + axes + commissar costs 165 points.

A 10 man Marine squad costs 170 points. You're spending nearly twice the price of a basic SM troop unit to almost wipe it out.

No offense, but you're vastly overestimating the melee capability of IG. Remember, bolters pen IG armor. If you're charging, you're probably out in the open.

And just because you're probably taking a CCS doesn't mean a squad with creed doesn't cost 140 points. It still does.

-TheCaptain

And marines aren't even a dedicated assault unit. Try running those numbers against a unit of beastmasters. Razorwing flocks are brutal.

Please don't forget about your explanation of how to use Aun'va. I'm waiting to hear this brilliant strategy you've discovered for making him not suck. Or were you just making that up so you could pretend that I'm being unfair to the poor characters?

 Jancoran wrote:
You're free to leave Creed wherever you feel you want to. But I don't see why you would claim he'll be flattening himself against the board edge like some cowardly lion. That would be, i guess, your style talking, and not his potential.

Because he's a support unit that has no reason to get anywhere near the enemy.

12 Power axes striking at STR 5 is not... as you say... Lackluster. It's a death sentence.

Do the math. 12 power axes at STR 5 is 4 wounds. That's not very impressive.

40 STR 4 attacks and 12 Power axes at STR 5 whacking on a Marine unit.

Ok, so the basic attacks contribute 3 wounds. Congratulations, that's a total of 7 wounds. Your 250 point blob + 90 point character killed most of a tactical squad.

Oh, and just for fun, let's use FRFSRF instead of charging: a 4-squad blob kills 6 marines with lasguns. Add heavy/special weapons and that total goes up, so your 90 point special character and expensive power axes are just making your units worse.

The squad they charge is gone.

Unless of course it's a full tactical squad, in which case it's still alive. Or a proper horde unit. Or a MC. Or pretty much anything besides fire warriors.

Creed made the difference there.

Nonsense. +1 STR on those 40 attacks adds 0.8 dead MEQ. For 90 POINTS.

what does a mismatch have to do with this? Even if they lose (and it isn't as if Creed can stop that from happening from time to time), this doesn't change his value.

Look I can tell you that your BeastMasters would be bombarded to the point of ineffectiveness with my Manticore and Colossus before they EVER reached the front lines. What is the point in going there? Bad things happen to both sids all the time. Its a war sim for Gawds sake!

WHEN the moment of truth happens in which you must inflict maximum damage on the enemy, Creeds men do a great job of making sure that enemy most definitely knows he was in a fight afterwards, win lose or draw while the commissar makes sure no one runs. Can he save a unit from running off the table once? saved how many points? when his men tie a combat they should have lost? whats it worth. When his men 24" away knock a flyer out of the sky and then core it out... was he worth it? When you're rolling LOTS of dice to run at the objective in turn 5 and win... He's worth the game isn't he?

Every single game will be different and give different units a chance to shine. Some will never be useful yet later will win you three straight. You can't change that. You just gotta have as many answers as you can and IG are pretty cool in that regard.