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 Jancoran wrote:
what does a mismatch have to do with this? Even if they lose (and it isn't as if Creed can stop that from happening from time to time), this doesn't change his value.

Sure it does. Creed only makes you "good" at killing things your lasguns already do a better job of killing.

WHEN the moment of truth happens in which you must inflict maximum damage on the enemy,

And you know how you do that? Spend Creed's 90 points on bringing more guns.

Can he save a unit from running off the table once? saved how many points? when his men tie a combat they should have lost? whats it worth. When his men 24" away knock a flyer out of the sky and then core it out... was he worth it? When you're rolling LOTS of dice to run at the objective in turn 5 and win... He's worth the game isn't he?

You know what does all of this for fewer points? A basic CCS.

You just gotta have as many answers as you can and IG are pretty cool in that regard.

Exactly. You need as many answers as possible, and that means spending points on efficient killing units instead of overpriced gimmick characters like Creed.

 Jancoran wrote:
what does a mismatch have to do with this? Even if they lose (and it isn't as if Creed can stop that from happening from time to time), this doesn't change his value.

Look I can tell you that your BeastMasters would be bombarded to the point of ineffectiveness with my Manticore and Colossus before they EVER reached the front lines. What is the point in going there? Bad things happen to both sids all the time. Its a war sim for Gawds sake!

WHEN the moment of truth happens in which you must inflict maximum damage on the enemy, Creeds men do a great job of making sure that enemy most definitely knows he was in a fight afterwards, win lose or draw while the commissar makes sure no one runs. Can he save a unit from running off the table once? saved how many points? when his men tie a combat they should have lost? whats it worth. When his men 24" away knock a flyer out of the sky and then core it out... was he worth it? When you're rolling LOTS of dice to run at the objective in turn 5 and win... He's worth the game isn't he?

Every single game will be different and give different units a chance to shine. Some will never be useful yet later will win you three straight. You can't change that. You just gotta have as many answers as you can and IG are pretty cool in that regard.

You're missing the whole point where Lasguns with FRFSRF will kill more than assaulting guardsmen and cost less. And Lasguns are awful.

I'm not "missing a point". I do math too.

40 Lasguns are great. 120 shots creates 20 wounds which is 6.67 unsaved MEQ wounds. Trouble is, there wont be 40 by the time a charge would be imminent. Also, the axes alone kill 4 marines on the charge. So explain to me how this POTENTIAL 120 shots (most likely to be 60-80, but sure we go with it for arguments sake) is better than that? If even just 20 of those Guardsman survive for the charge, escorting their axe wielding buddies with them, they will kill equal or more marines with fewer Guardsman! It's as likely as you telling me 40 Guardsman will still be there when the time comes.

So I dont think I'm "missing" anything. I think I'm just being inundated with things that sound good instead of good sound reasons. I think that if you learned to play without Creed, cool. Keep doing it. Whatever you're doing is working. Stating as some kind of impirical "fact" that Creed is a points dump is another matter.

Creed isn't good with blobs, he's good with MSU.
Yeah, commissars being stubborn is better, but you can't just pick 4 units within 24" and say, ok, now your stubborn.
If you've got enough infantry squads, you can blunt an attack by throwing fearless guys in the path.

How I would look at creed, is for 90 points you can throw 60 points to stop an assault.
Do that 4 times in a game, it is a 330 points spent. Those points spent are buying you another shooting phase or two, or trapping an enemy unit off an objective. And those throw-away squads did get a round or two of shooting in before selected for glory.

Concentrate fire and wipe out some of the enemy, and then stall with For the Honor of Cadia.

 Jancoran wrote:
Trouble is, there wont be 40 by the time a charge would be imminent.

Nor will there be 40 guardsmen still alive to charge.

Also, the axes alone kill 4 marines on the charge. So explain to me how this POTENTIAL 120 shots (most likely to be 60-80, but sure we go with it for arguments sake) is better than that?

Because the lasguns can do it from 12" away, and don't have to roll for random charge distance. Also, they don't require spending 40 points on power axes and 90 points on Creed.

And really, if you're going to spend 90 points to buff a blob and 40 points on power weapons, isn't a Rune Priest a better choice all around? Sure, there's an associated troop tax, but we've discussed how to deal with that efficiently before.

I'll take ATSKNF over fearless any day.

 Jancoran wrote:


Also, the axes alone kill 4 marines .

I love how you take into account axes but not special and heavy weapons.

 Jancoran wrote:
I'm not "missing a point". I do math too.

40 Lasguns are great. 120 shots creates 20 wounds which is 6.67 unsaved MEQ wounds. Trouble is, there wont be 40 by the time a charge would be imminent. Also, the axes alone kill 4 marines on the charge. So explain to me how this POTENTIAL 120 shots (most likely to be 60-80, but sure we go with it for arguments sake) is better than that? If even just 20 of those Guardsman survive for the charge, escorting their axe wielding buddies with them, they will kill equal or more marines with fewer Guardsman! It's as likely as you telling me 40 Guardsman will still be there when the time comes.

So I dont think I'm "missing" anything. I think I'm just being inundated with things that sound good instead of good sound reasons. I think that if you learned to play without Creed, cool. Keep doing it. Whatever you're doing is working. Stating as some kind of impirical "fact" that Creed is a points dump is another matter.

I still don't think you understand that you're throwing 300+ points of guardsmen into killing 170 points of marines. And even then, it's not all that likely. If your "powerblob" gets charged, it's dying, no question.

Your strategy of using creed hinges on wasting valuable special/weapon slots on a highland charge with t3 characters wielding str4 ap2 weapons at initiative 1. And it hinges on you getting the charge off. And not taking any casualties before melee. Because it you're even reduced to 75%, you're likely losing to those marines in melee. Even with Creed, and the charge.

Creed is cool, and that is fine. But that's about all that can be said of him. His boon lies in letting you outflank something. "For the Glory of Cadia" is an awful order.

-TheCaptain


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:


40 Lasguns are great. 120 shots creates 20 wounds which is 6.67 unsaved MEQ wounds. Trouble is, there wont be 40 by the time a charge would be imminent. Also, the axes alone kill 4 marines on the charge. So explain to me how this POTENTIAL 120 shots (most likely to be 60-80, but sure we go with it for arguments sake) is better than that? If even just 20 of those Guardsman survive for the charge, escorting their axe wielding buddies with them, they will kill equal or more marines with fewer Guardsman! It's as likely as you telling me 40 Guardsman will still be there when the time comes.

I'm going to help you out and just math this in a vacuum for simplicity. I do hope you don't ignore this wall of text. I can assure you, I did the math myself, and doing accurate math isn't fun at all. But I felt it had to be done in order to quell this ridiculous discussion.

Shooting blob:
Cost: (PCS, 2 Infantry Squads, 2 Lascannons, 2 Plasmaguns, Rune Priest) 300 points.

PCS uses FRFSRF, Rune Priest uses Prescience.

12 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols fire 38 shots total, 28.5 hit, 9.5 wound, 3.16 marines die.

2 Plasmaguns fire 4 shots total, 3 hit. 2.5 wound and kill.

2 Lascannons fire 2 shots total. 1.5 hit, 1.25 marines die.

6.91 marines dead from shooting.

Pro's:
Rune Priest psychic defense.
Prescience means rerolls on overwatch, melee, and regular shooting.
Don't need to leave the aegis line thus take less casualties.
Has ATSKNF (Can't get swept, autorallies, etc)

Con's:
Not good in melee.


Creed Melee Strat.
Cost: (CCS+Creed, 2 Infantry Squads with Power Axes and Commissar) Cost: 295

Creed uses "For the Glory of Cadia"

You get overwatched, taking 1.5 casualties (we'll leave that out of the math for the purpose of calculating IG attacks)

9 Marines and a Sergeant mean Sergeant challenges. Assume you accept with your Commissar for your best chances.

Sergeant has 3 attacks, hits 1.5 times, wounds 1 time, putting .66 wounds on your Commissar

9 Marines hit 6 times, wound 4 times, and kill 2.66 guardsmen

2 Sergeants and Commissar mean 12 Power Axe attacks on the charge, 8 go to marines, 4 go to the Marine Sergeant. 4 hit marines, 2 hit sergeant. 2.6 dead marines, 1 wound on a Sergeant.

16 guardsmen mean 32 attacks. 16 hit, 8 wound, 2.66 Marines die.

So IF you are charging, you beat a Tactical squad by 1.5 wounds. (6.33 to 3.33+1.5 from overwatch)

Pro's:
Allows you to outflank a squad

Con's:
Requires you to leave Aegis Line
Requires you to move upfield
Requires you to be in melee (and thus taking casualties to be effective)
Can lose combat and get swept
Has to charge, or dies horribly

So even on the charge, you don't outkill the same points worth of shooting IG.

Not to mention, you take more casualties, and expose yourself to shooting in order to even get a charge off.

And if you get charged, your squad will more than likely get wiped out in a turn or two. Wasting more than 160 points of "melee guardsmen" on a Tac Squad.

If you do get the charge, and make it in at full strength with both of your sergeants and your commissar, you take roughly 7 dead guardsmen and 300 points to kill a Tactical squad in one game turn. I hope you don't think this is a good strategy after seeing the math. It relies on too many variables, and counts on both charging and the survival of a high-target warlord to even be slightly effective.

-TheCaptain

Something else to keep in mind is that tactical marines aren't going to be assaulting your guardsmen. They are better off shooting, where they ignore your armor. and your odds of killing them are basically the same (unless you have special/heavy weapons). If something is that close to your guardsmen gunline, it's probably ork boyz, or a DE beastpack, or GK purifiers, or terminators or even assault marines. 2 attacks minimum base, and possibly some other trait (like purifers) that are part of their role as dedicated melee troops. This is assuming you're sitting in a gunline waiting for a charge. If your plan is rather to charge your guard across the table, you're losing out on your heavy weapons in your pursuit of melee.

If you want to try this, have at it, it's your army...just bear in mind that the ranged capabilities of guard are generally what make them good. Those are supplemented by orders, which, as has been pointed out, you can get for cheaper and with more flexibility.

Corollax wrote:
And really, if you're going to spend 90 points to buff a blob and 40 points on power weapons, isn't a Rune Priest a better choice all around? Sure, there's an associated troop tax, but we've discussed how to deal with that efficiently before.

I'll take ATSKNF over fearless any day.

There's tradeoffs here but i definitely don't dislike the Rune Priest offering.

Would I RATHER do it that way? No. That partly is because I dont actually LIKE the Allies mechanic (so personal preference plays into that somewhat)_ but also there are practical reasons. The priest is an IC while in the unit. That makes him a little easier to remove than I'd like. You lose nothing by whittling the 40 man squad and if he's hit, he's hit but if not, you'd have done the same anyways. Not necessarily true when the unit is separate. Separate units force you to choose.

Only Precision Strikes can single out Creed in his unit during melee as he can't be challenged. That's a bonus if it came to it but again, he can split the enemies fire up and give releif to the main unit by taking fire, so there is something to be said for that.

I can't say that I have a strong bias between those two options. the Rune Priest can TL a unit if he has that Psyker discipline, he gives ATSKNF (which I find ridiculous even though true) although the Commissar would have given stubborn anyways, so i am so-so on that point but I'll concede that it is good while it lasts (about one lucky challenge or so). he cant do Creeds other Psyker powers (by which I mean both effectively get "powers", they're just different).

So I wouldn't fault someone for doing it. It's sound. But I probably wouldn't do it myself though and I dont think its that much better in its ultimate effect. situationally as i said, either one may shine given the right situation, in equal measure.

A blob has anywhere from 2-5 sergeants that can accept challenges for the Rune Priest, even IF you decide you don't want to decline the challenge. It is seriously a non-issue. Meanwhile, the Rune Priest gets a 2+ LoS, while Creed has to rely on 15 point bodyguards or his pathetic 4+ LoS. And of course, he doesn't have a 40 guardsmen around him to absorb those hits. In 6th edition, being a regular character in a tiny CCS squad stinks. Being an IC is a much better deal, all around.

Again, ATSKNF is better than Stubborn because it allows you to break from combat and retaliate during you shooting phase. Which is what guardsmen are better at doing in the first place. You even get a free consolidation movement.

Peregrine: I note you excluded the part of my post where I already addressed your point. As I said...40 guardsman are as likely to be alive for my charge as for your shooting attempt at close range. So if you WANt to calculate it that way, great... the example just needs to go both ways.

TheCaptain: a lot there but not a lot that changed what I said.
In a perfect world we would not be faced with the need to charge Guardsman. clearly such a thing would be done in certain cases and not in others. I think you should focus in on what i eluded to earlier: you don't always have the choice if you want to win, to sit back and shoot. Objectives must be reached. Sometimes units you wish didn't have to go hunting, do.

My last game against Sisters of Battle (with my Sisters) faced a 40man(50? not sure) blob, led by Jacobus and it was a LOT to kill. I killed it eventually. All the Creeds inthe world couldn't stop its end after his leader left it or died (ugh, its dimming!).

But the point of focus is that it was FORCED by my strategy of heavy outflanking to have to move and move some more and charge. It had no choice. It could not stand and shoot. It would have been a massacre. So they engaged. Had Creed been there, those Sisters would have been a bit easier to handle. .. But he wasn't and so the Sisters who are no dynamos, ground them down and though the Sisters succumbed, it weakened the unit over the course enough that they could finally be dispatched (thoug ironically a tank shock made a mockery of all those efforts by driving the unit off the board!!!).

Now I use that example to show two things: first, when the unit got to my Sisters initially the acxes weren't involved because I had outflanked him. But when they DID get involved, they mowed the grass just like Creeds men would have done...only Creeds men would have done it on the charge instead of the slow grind it became over three phases.

The other thing about that example was that Creeds ability might have saved the entire unit from falling completely offf the table, had they a couple extra inches to work with. That would have been huge. As it was, he won anyways on secondaries, but it may not have come to that if Creed were there. Moreover, the unit could have run further when it needed to in an earlier round, after being somewhat hampered by terrain. Perhaps his unit inside the Vindetta might have even gotten a chance to twin link the unit to kill a tank that was blocking him from getting to my scoring unit on the objective.

And so on...

The Rune Priest might have had DIFFERENT but equally important benefits for the unit. but obviously how can we know for sure? We really can't know. We can only look back in time and say hmm... maybe...

Most every unit is a maybe. It can die before its effective. it can never be given the chance to BE effective. It can have its best attribute nullified by the nature of the force (such as Heldrakes against Deathwing lists). We never really know until we're there.

 Jancoran wrote:
Peregrine: I note you excluded the part of my post where I already addressed your point. As I said...40 guardsman are as likely to be alive for my charge as for your shooting attempt at close range. So if you WANt to calculate it that way, great... the example just needs to go both ways.

Not quite. Guardsmen are initiative 3, and will generally hit after their opponent when they choose to charge. Any assault results have to first subtract your expected casualties. This is not the case in the prior shooting phase. Though I suppose you have a point if we're specifically talking about Necrons.

 Jancoran wrote:
The Rune Priest might have had DIFFERENT but equally important benefits for the unit. but obviously how can we know for sure? We really can't know. We can only look back in time and say hmm... maybe...

Most every unit is a maybe. It can die before its effective. it can never be given the chance to BE effective. It can have its best attribute nullified by the nature of the force (such as Heldrakes against Deathwing lists). We never really know until we're there.

See, that's the funny thing about list building. It doesn't really matter what the opponent brought last game. If you only had to optimize for one game, we'd be discussing how to tailor our lists instead of staying TAC.

Instead, it's common etiquette that we construct an army that can credibly function against whatever our opponent means to bring that day. If that means that one of your units ended up being a dud, so be it -- it's not about the circumstances of a specific game, but rather its contribution over an extended period of time.

 Jancoran wrote:
Post

Dude... we are not going to win here. They will not accept the fact this can work, and that you can win with it. If it is not in a shiny bawx shooting plasma, it is not viable. I bet none of these guys ever ran Roughriders or 10 man squads of Ogryns, much less power blobs. They keep talking on how Creed's 24" range for Orders is wasted because 12" is off of the board, but none of them bother to take note that your reaching the enemy deployment line with that 24". Normal CCS can't touch that... because obviously your sitting still in your gunline and not attacking... why would you ever want to issue a order beyond your deployment zone? Or heaven forbid issue a order that boost your Guardmen in CC, much less give them other boots like a Ministorum Priest for 45-60pts. Now, all of the sudden, your looking to charge! And your not terrible at it because your re-rolling misses which equal a lot more kills and your at a higher Str to get more of those hits as actual wounds to force more failed armor saves... or no armor saves if using the Axes. And besides, even if I had wasn't running Creed and a Priest, are you actually dumb enough to let those Berzerkers or Genestealers charge /you/? Yeah, your going to fire lasguns on overwatch and /that/ is going to save you? Don't make me laugh... you charge, you take away CC attacks from them, pure and simple... tactically it is the better move than overwatch.

Heck, it is like they forget that you can leave your heavy weapons behind in these handy little squads that Creed can also issue Orders to if he has nothing else to do... they are troops so they are scoring. Oh wait... they are fragile! Unless you have a Lord Commissar within 6" of them... even if they are, they are still cheap and that means they are not firing on other things, like the 60+ Guardsmen advancing on them. Besides the point you probably have more heavy weapons than your opponent does anyways, even if they are Longfangs.

Creed is a aspect to enhance Guard in melee, as well as enhance your firepower against certain targets and ability to do things like ignore Night Fighting because it is a cover save... and he can do this 4 times, at a greater distance than a normal CCS. I am not saying get Kell and Nork and make your CCS a 400pt unit, but you can pull this off for 200-ish points and that is reasonable in comparison to other HQ choices in other books (Eldar, Chaos Space marines, Orks, Marines... all have 200pt-ish HQs). When folk are talking blowing 330pts for 6 Chimeras that are really doing /nothing/ for you besides getting you 12" closer to your opponent... your not getting them for the firepower, that is for sure. If IG could get Rhinos for 35pts, I will bet my bottom dollor 9 out of 10 folk posting in this thread would drop the Chimera faster than a prom night dumpster baby. So drop that BS that he is to expensive... Yarrick is Expensive, Calgar is expensive, Abbadon is expensive, Ghazghkull is expensive, Asurmen is expensive.

 Jancoran wrote:

Corollax wrote:
And really, if you're going to spend 90 points to buff a blob and 40 points on power weapons, isn't a Rune Priest a better choice all around? Sure, there's an associated troop tax, but we've discussed how to deal with that efficiently before.

I'll take ATSKNF over fearless any day.

There's tradeoffs here but i definitely don't dislike the Rune Priest offering.

Would I RATHER do it that way? No. That partly is because I dont actually LIKE the Allies mechanic (so personal preference plays into that somewhat)_ but also there are practical reasons. The priest is an IC while in the unit. That makes him a little easier to remove than I'd like. You lose nothing by whittling the 40 man squad and if he's hit, he's hit but if not, you'd have done the same anyways. Not necessarily true when the unit is separate. Separate units force you to choose.

Only Precision Strikes can single out Creed in his unit during melee as he can't be challenged. That's a bonus if it came to it but again, he can split the enemies fire up and give releif to the main unit by taking fire, so there is something to be said for that.

I can't say that I have a strong bias between those two options. the Rune Priest can TL a unit if he has that Psyker discipline, he gives ATSKNF (which I find ridiculous even though true) although the Commissar would have given stubborn anyways, so i am so-so on that point but I'll concede that it is good while it lasts (about one lucky challenge or so). he cant do Creeds other Psyker powers (by which I mean both effectively get "powers", they're just different).

So I wouldn't fault someone for doing it. It's sound. But I probably wouldn't do it myself though and I dont think its that much better in its ultimate effect. situationally as i said, either one may shine given the right situation, in equal measure.

Creed is a character. He can be challenged. Creed is just as easily "singled out" as a rune priest. Except creed can be instakilled by a single precision plasmagun shot.

Rune Priest has 24" of nullifying any enemy psychic power at a 4+. He gives the blob LD10 and I4. ATSKNF means the blob flees quite easily after casualties, which is good for guard, because they autorally and shoot next turn. And ATSKNF means you can't be swept in close combat.

Stubborn makes it harder to flee, and when you flee you can be swept easily.

Rune Priests have Force Weapons, meaning they can Instant Death just about anything, and come stock with a 3+ save, and can improve it from there, even getting invulns.

Commissars and Rune Priests are in whole different tiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or not. But I will address it sincerely, and if it was indeed sarcasm, I apologize for not catching it.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Post

Dude... we are not going to win here. They will not accept the fact this can work, and that you can win with it. If it is not in a shiny bawx shooting plasma, it is not viable. I bet none of these guys ever ran Roughriders or 10 man squads of Ogryns, much less power blobs.

You can win with anything. But in the tactics forum, generally, you suggest what is best at winning. No one denies you can win a game with Creed in your list. But he's still bad. Just like Roughriders and Ogryns and Powerblobs. You can win with them, just like you can win with an army full of Penal Legion. But it isn't competitive, nor good.

And besides, even if I had wasn't running Creed and a Priest, are you actually dumb enough to let those Berzerkers or Genestealers charge /you/? Yeah, your going to fire lasguns on overwatch and /that/ is going to save you? Don't make me laugh... you charge, you take away CC attacks from them, pure and simple... tactically it is the better move than overwatch.

No. But Shooting lasguns, heavy weapons, and special weapons, and then overwatching your opponent is better than just charging them. See, because as IG, you don't get to shoot if you want to charge.

So drop that BS that he is to expensive... Yarrick is Expensive, Calgar is expensive, Abbadon is expensive, Ghazghkull is expensive, Asurmen is expensive.

Creed is a BS4 T3 model with a 4+ save. For 90 points. That's too much.

-TheCaptain

I'm not sure comparing your melee blob to a Tac squad is an effective metric. Tac squads are not the base by which you judge assaults. If a Vanilla player is assaulting with a Tac, he's either finishing off something weak, buying himself time, or a bad player.

This is anecdotal, but I had a "melee blob" led by a Commissar attack a GH squad that was under standard. Only one of four axes even survived past i4 to swing back. It ended with a sweeping advance. And even GHs aren't what I would be measuring against. If you're spending hundreds of points to kit a Guard blob for assault...compare it to Wraiths, Beastmasters, Nob Bikers...the units that actually win games based on what they do in assault, not units that assault when they have to.

I been thinking of using creed in my list. His one order is ok but the longer range for orders and outflanking make him worth the points.

I personally only invest in axes on the commissars in my blob squads. They are like an insurance policy, with the Sgts eating challenges. I put some weight into the fact that i have 20+ guardsmen other then just 4 axes. Even if they only hit and wound on 5s.

Being fearless helps so much. I normally run along side SoB and use St. Celestine, I use her from time to time to make a squad fearless and to tie up major threats, They did a fair job against DE Beast Packs. Tied them up all game and she didnt even die.

Corollax wrote:
Instead, it's common etiquette that we construct an army that can credibly function against whatever our opponent means to bring that day. If that means that one of your units ended up being a dud, so be it -- it's not about the circumstances of a specific game, but rather its contribution over an extended period of time.

I agree thjat the effect over time is exactly it, and I think we agree there. I say Creed gives you that flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Creeeds very good. Saying he doesn't give you a better chance to win is ignoring the obvious.

spend the 90 points elsewhere. Like i said: i can win without him. I just don't see why you should. I could list all the fun ways I can use him some more but I think the thread has devolved enough to where it would do more harm than good.

Whether you play Creed or you don't, there's plenty to conside i nthe thread.

I ran creed the other day and he wasn't too bad. The range and improved leadership of orders was quite nice when I wasn't rolling double sixes on my first order I had his spare veteran man the quad gun and he had a lascannon behind the aegis snugly fit between two basilisk so he ended up being of one of the last things killed. Lets just say it wasn't him that lost my game it was things like bad orders bad rolls and a lot of corbulo led assault terminators getting good rolls against 40+ lasgun shots. Also a librarian dread bloodlanced two of my Russes first turn so I can def feel the synergy he gave me. Also its nice to give scouts to a big blob unit on the edge of the deployment zone so they get the extra 6in of movement

Jancoran:

I do not know what opponents you are fighting against.

I play with foot list guard and I can only tell you, that from my experience, my Command squad is one of the first squad (if note the first) my opponent is trying to kill. Even my CCS can barely make it to my turn 2. Would I bring Creed into the battle, the enemy fire would kill him in the first turn he is in LOS. There is no reason to take him. Expensive dead meat...

I am sorry, but this is true. I love the model but his rules are just not good enough. Savvy opponent will not let you use him.

 Lothar wrote:
Jancoran:

I do not know what opponents you are fighting against.

I play with foot list guard and I can only tell you, that from my experience, my Command squad is one of the first squad (if note the first) my opponent is trying to kill. Even my CCS can barely make it to my turn 2. Would I bring Creed into the battle, the enemy fire would kill him in the first turn he is in LOS. There is no reason to take him. Expensive dead meat...

I am sorry, but this is true. I love the model but his rules are just not good enough. Savvy opponent will not let you use him.

I have the opposite problem, my opponents almost never kill my CCS, usually they are going for my artillery

I would rather have 2 CCS with camo and LC, then take creed.

Lothar: Slay the Warlord makers it a target. thats true of all HQ's that are left in the open. So I guess don't do that? Not sure why he's kinda out there and not behind or in a Chimera, but you probably have your reasons so I won't question that.

Anytime you take a character, you gotta consider his defense somewhat. Also, depending on the terrain and opponent, his defence may simply be unnecessary. and we ARE talking about his impact on balance over time. from game to game, things can always go badly for any unit. Watched a guy lose a sure win by failing 6 out of 7 Terminator saves in a row. It happens.