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Hi All,

First of all, Hello, i am new(kind of.... been reading this forum for about a year on and off, but finally registered! yay! )

Second of all, i know it said this is not the forum for 40K discussions, but i thought/hoped it would be OK for my post as 40k is an element of discussion and not the primary topic!?

So.... Back last year(maybe even late 2011!?) during the release of the revised 40k necron codex/army i decided upon joining the world of 40k, i brought the full rule-book(5th edition, so now out of date! :( ) and a necron codex!

I got given a Necron Command barge for Xmas (in which case, it must of been late 2011!) and then due to family commitments,etc.. it dwindled out....(i never made the command barge, it sits there waiting!) I continued to watch videos/read this forum on and off until this week, when I decided i needed a new hobby and miniture gaming was it!.. But then the problems started! I looked at what was available and came across 40K Dark Vengance.... (It was black reach when I started in 2011!) as I watched videos on youtube, my attention then got drawn to a miniature game called Mercs...

So I stand (sit...) here with 2 games in front of me, and these are the problems/questions I am caught up about:

40k
I love the whole 40k world, i love how accessible it is, and the amount of people playing it, there is a lot of help around!

But... I am not a great painter(In fact, I have barely painted miniatures apart from a few Airfix models as a child!)
I am not sure on the whole Dark Angels Vs Chaos Space Marine thing.... i used to love the idea of space Marines versus Orks(black reach) but this.... Im not sure...

Finally(and the thing it all comes down to...) funding! I need to by primer, Paint(iv got a GWS starter set, but most of the colors don't look like what i would be painting anything in Dark Vengeance!?..... Dark Vengeance is such good value!

Mercs

I like the concept of this game, the miniatures look lovely, But they look hard to paint(as does 40k though!) and Iv heard they are hard to construct!?

I don't have enough money to buy 2 starter kits and the paint I require, so would only be able to buy 3 models per a team and run small games until i can purchase more(what is my intention each month!)



This post sounded really good in my head but I think what i am trying to say is:

If you were starting out in the world of miniature gaming and were given about £100-150 to start with(for everything! paint, miniatures,tapes,dice) with the end goal that 2 people(got no close local groups/shops, and i don't really want to go to these until I know the basics, and i'm looking at something i can have a few mates over and play in the evenings...

Sorry if this post is a bit vague... Anything i can make clearer please ask! I am hoping to put an order through tonight for the bits with the hope i will have them by the weekend to start gaming!!

If I was starting out and had someone who was also starting at the same time, I would 100% avoid GW products and go for something else.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
If I was starting out and had someone who was also starting at the same time, I would 100% avoid GW products and go for something else.

Hmmm.... I am very tempted by Mercs! but my concern is, instead of a nice big starter set, I am either going to have to buy 3 models of one faction, and 3 of the other.....

alternatively, I could buy 1 faction starter pack and have a faction Vs faction 3v3 battle until i can purchase my second faction starter pack!?

What is the average spend on paint/washes/primer for an army's color scheme? how many different colors do you normally?

There are a bunch more games out there. Rather than tying yourself to particular games from the start, choose what you want to do, whether you want dedicated minis, how much you want to spend, etc. then see what there is on offer to you on this forum or a website like Wargame Vault.

Also, Mercs and 40k are two different beasts. Mercs is a skirmish game (which you will find loads of) whereas 40k is a far larger army scale. GW also offers dedicated plastic minis, which nearly no other companies do. There's a few third party manufacturers, but that's about it.

Also, seeing as it's one of these threads, might as well plug myself. If you click the banner in my sig it'll take you to my beta ruleset. It's just a social skirmish games that's quite quick to play, but there aren't any dedicated miniatures (and most likely never will be) or such.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
There are a bunch more games out there. Rather than tying yourself to particular games from the start, choose what you want to do, whether you want dedicated minis, how much you want to spend, etc. then see what there is on offer to you on this forum or a website like Wargame Vault.

Also, Mercs and 40k are two different beasts. Mercs is a skirmish game (which you will find loads of) whereas 40k is a far larger army scale. GW also offers dedicated plastic minis, which nearly no other companies do. There's a few third party manufacturers, but that's about it.

Also, seeing as it's one of these threads, might as well plug myself. If you click the banner in my sig it'll take you to my beta ruleset. It's just a social skirmish games that's quite quick to play, but there aren't any dedicated miniatures (and most likely never will be) or such.

So.... I want dedicated mini's, with a pretty popular game (so I can post on here with Questions/Search on here for answers)

I have had a decent look over the normal "bigger games" i know; infinity / Mercs / 40k and these(with exception of infinity that confused me to figure out how its even played, and i heard their miniatures are hard to put together..) are the ones i narrowed it down too... I am open to recommendations though!

And my budget is about £150 to start with... so out of 150 i need 2 people to be able to play a game...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and once i have some mini's i will look over your game! sounds interesting from the fluff!

To start 40k for two people is feasible... £70 for the full starter box and a little room for expansion. However, in terms of sustainability, it'll cost a fair bit, and if you don't want to spend a lot of time painting, it could be difficult. Even with the basic 3 colours, it'll take you about an hour to paint up a squad. However, 40k has incredible background, and a very wide fanbase with dedicated miniatures and support.

However, there's loads of other games, and most alternative games tend to be far cheaper. Just from looking down the forum page, I can see active games with plenty of support; Warmachine/Hordes, Brushfire and Endless Fantasy Tactics, Blackwater Gulch, FoW, Infinity, Malifaux, MTG (A card game, yes, I know.). Many of these have their own minis.

You're really spoiled for choice in terms of games. Some groups, like On The Lamb, have trial rules available for free which are just the full game with a lot of the special rules and such trimmed off.

I'd not buy anything yet, but would look around for a club or shop to play at.
Find that FLGS or club, go along with an intro post on their forum or something, and arrange to see some games.
If they have anyone who plays Mercs, get them to show you the game.

As for buying the DV starter set, if you don't want to use DA and chaos, someone at that venue is likely to buy the rest off you.

Once you get a game you like, and people to play against, work out with them how many points they play at, and buy towards that.

There's a sticky post in one of these forums with lists of non-GW games. Have a trawl through that.
But, there not much worse that having loads of models for a game that no-one else plays.

The problem is. My only local shop is in fact a GWS... I was just looking for a nice set at home and wasn't really intending on going to clubs until I have gotten better at playing either.

Do people rate the DV set?

Anyone have any experience with mercs? The gameplay I think I can get to grips with. The painting and assembly I am not surf about, and I can't tell how hard it is because there are no assembly videos online, only painting.

To play MERCs you need at least five of the six models in a faction, because the game is about teams of five. At the start of a game you pick five of the six options in your faction.

(There is also a faction that only has five models, and picks a model from a different faction on a kind of loan basis.)

However, it is still a cheaper game than 40K, because very few figures are needed overall.

Of course you can play with only three models a side, but it will be a more limited game in terms of tactical options, manoeuvring and excitement.

The models are made of metal and need to be pinned and cemented with epoxy for maximum strength. This is fiddlier than assembling Finecast or polystyrene which the GW models are made of.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To play MERCs you need at least five of the six models in a faction, because the game is about teams of five. At the start of a game you pick five of the six options in your faction.

(There is also a faction that only has five models, and picks a model from a different faction on a kind of loan basis.)

However, it is still a cheaper game than 40K, because very few figures are needed overall.

Of course you can play with only three models a side, but it will be a more limited game in terms of tactical options, manoeuvring and excitement.

The models are made of metal and need to be pinned and cemented with epoxy for maximum strength. This is fiddlier than assembling Finecast or polystyrene which the GW models are made of.

:/ the whole concept of pinning and epoxying is a little off-putting :( i am going down to my local GWS in 20 mins to look at and maybe play test the DV set...

Keep the comments and recommendations coming though guys! helping loads!

Thanks

Tom...

If you haven't got any friends into other games, and your only source for gaming is a GW...

It's gonna be a struggle.

Well I plan on purchasing most of my stuff from the Internet, but yeah. 40k stuff does seem to be one of the more accessible games... Just not sure I like chaos or DA!?

TornUp wrote:
Well I plan on purchasing most of my stuff from the Internet, but yeah. 40k stuff does seem to be one of the more accessible games... Just not sure I like chaos or DA!?

Then ebay the paperback rulebook, and you can get a template/dice set pretty cheap.

Then you can play any army you like.

I think it does boil down to what opponents you have. Not everyone has a circle of friends who does wargaming, so you may have to rely on Clubs/Events/FLGS for gaming opposed to general hang-outs. If the clubs/events/FLGS all do a particular system, then you may have to rely on that.

If you have a group you can mold into any system you wish, or multiple active systems where you get gametime, then you can choose what minis you like or what game you enjoy.

And, just so you know, if you choose to there are alternate sites for minis. Anvil has a really good SM range and also is moving into guard.

If you hate painting then perhaps consider X Wing?

I've played my first few games and its great fun, minis are pre painted, you can pick up the game for £25 and literally never spend another penny on it, it needs only a 3' square to play on and if want, a piece of black cloth makes the perfect backdrop.

I appreciate its not the same style of game as those you've mentioned, but you'd probably still have enough left in the budget to give one of those a go as well!

You don't need to be a good painter, I'm terrabad at painting but manage to make reasonble stuff or the table, (in time)

40k is still a great game, don't let the haters push you to play something you don't like or have an interest in.

I don't personally play mercs, but I hear it's a great game as well, so do whatever you feel like doing, don't listen to us really, you have a good plan.

Dark Vengeance is a good value for 40k. Rule book, two armies, and dice with templates. If you shop around and trade you can spend very little and get a fair amount of stuff to expand it. I bought DV and then after traded my way to double the points of the chaos side with 20 dollars, takes some time but doable.

But like someone above said if you dont like painting and are up to suggestions the X Wing game might be up your alley. Ive heard nothing but great things about it.

MERCS is easy to play with 3 models. Infact if you check out Beasts of War mercs week that is how they start. Also on the mercs forums there is plenty advice about playing and any help you need you would get.

To be honest also the models are no harder to make than any other. Any model you make you will need to take your time. Does not matter what game it is.

Plus MERCS is far, far cheaper than 40k. It has better rules, models and is a very community supported game.
40k is full of holes, is not fun contary to popular belief but this is a 40k forum so......

If you are all about saving money and having a good time then MERCS is for you. If your about wasting money and having to paint hundreds of models pick 40k.

Though by no means is MERCS your only game. There is also Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Batman arkham asylum and many more.

Let the brow beating from the fanboi`s begin.......

I'm not disagreeing with your point of view, I'm just going to give the OP the warning it's only one of many. Yep, 40k is full of flaws, but there's a big (although not that great) community for it that he'll easily be able to get into.

Maybe you could find some Specialist Game players at your GW? Stuff like Inquisitor, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc.?

"If you were starting out in the world of miniature gaming and were given about £100-150 to start with(for everything! paint, miniatures,tapes,dice) with the end goal that 2 people(got no close local groups/shops, and i don't really want to go to these until I know the basics, and i'm looking at something i can have a few mates over and play in the evenings..."

I would spread that cash around and get into a few different Skermish games, and leave large scale corperation unplayable GW stuff as a non choice.

There are a heck of a lot of choices out there to be pigeon holed to one and none.

Your GW reasons are not rational in this day and age, and I'll throw it out there that Dark Vengence as a starter choice is a bad one if you are running with the two sentence thought process quoted above.

Specialist Games like Gorkamorka and Necromunda? Sure, heck yeah, but when I see what they devolved into with the additional hostility drama of thier antics, it leads one to just outright say- Thanks for nothing, I can go somewhere else and get 5 times as much for the trouble.

Mercs seemed a bit steep for what you get. I see that " Oh, you don't need a lot to play" as a copout for this games pricing. ALA Warmahordes.

Dig around out there, you can do better with that 150 pounds then these two choices.

Warlord Games has a pretty good price point and is fairly scaleable from skirmish to company on company sized battles.

MERCS is inexpensive. A rulebook, and five figures. That is all you need, maybe ever.

One note though, DO NOT USE epoxy on your models. Pinning and a rubberized super glue like the Gorilla brand is better. Epoxy is gloppy and may obscure details and is harder to repair in case of an accident. I say this as it is what I used when starting out so many years ago. I have several Chaos warriors that have no detail around their wastes as the original amount of epoxy was not enough and they kept "peeling" out of it so more was needed in order to be effective. Pinning and super-glue would have been so much more effective and efficient. I still have them and still regret using epoxy, buy I didn't know better at the time.

This is a sub-forum that is unnofficially an anti-GW sub forum. I suggest you ask in the 40k forum as well as you'll get a lot of, frankly, bs, from this forum regarding 40k.

To play 40k as it is designed to be played, requires much more money than MERCS. I would never recommend 40k to someone with budget issues. This being said, if you just want minis, Dark Vengence is less expensive than buying metal or resin minis. You could pick up a copy, sell one of the armies, and use the minis for another game, like MERCS or Infinity.

I think that the best way to begin would be to look for some local people to play with. Post in the "Find a Game" section.

Honestly to start MERCS you only need to buy a box of models. Current starter sets come with 6 models. You only ever need 5. You also get quick start rules and dice. How much £36 or however many dollars.

You dont even need the book to begin with as the quick start rules are what you will use for quite some time while getting used to the game anyway.

If you are working on a budget, anything to do with GW is a waste of time as it`ll cost at least.... infact its that much you can`t even say it`ll cost x times as much.

Infinity may seem complicated but is actually extremely intuitive, with very little abstraction. You will pick it up in no time, and can proxy miniatures in the meantime.

For the money you are proposing, you could probably play both Mercs and Infinity to be honest.

 BryllCream wrote:
This is a sub-forum that is unnofficially an anti-GW sub forum. I suggest you ask in the 40k forum as well as you'll get a lot of, frankly, bs, from this forum regarding 40k.

Or, as an alternative, you have a more pluralistic view of the hobby in this section, that isn't full of people who only play GW games. And by comparing GW to other games, looking at the wider wargaming hobby, they are less likely to swallow the crap that is constantly flung at them.

Actually Bryll, while there are a lot of anti-GW sentiments voiced here, I don't think that it inherently means that we are anti-40k.

I think that if you are on a budget then you should actively seek out that which provides the biggest bang for your buck. Unfortunately I cannot say this is true with GW's products.

Mercs and Warmachine have excellent starting costs. For $50-$60 you get exactly what you need to play at a money-saving price, even more so with MERCS as you can get a WHOLE faction for $60 along with dice and the essential rules.

As a person who loves many game systems I try not to say that one is "better" than another. Each one has its own faults and failures, but this is not about that. Each one has its high points and places it excels, but this is not about that.

This is about informing the OP of the merits of what is available on the shelves and providing enough information to help him make his choice.

 BryllCream wrote:
This is a sub-forum that is unnofficially an anti-GW sub forum. I suggest you ask in the 40k forum as well as you'll get a lot of, frankly, bs, from this forum regarding 40k.

Yet, only one post so far in the thread had actively tried to dissuade the poster from 40k, everyone else had either outlined possible cost-effective ways of starting or suggested some viable alternatives.

Just because you're used to continually defending GW, no matter what bat gak crazy shenanigans they pull, perhaps you should read what is written before getting defensive?

 azreal13 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
This is a sub-forum that is unnofficially an anti-GW sub forum. I suggest you ask in the 40k forum as well as you'll get a lot of, frankly, bs, from this forum regarding 40k.

Yet, only one post so far in the thread had actively tried to dissuade the poster from 40k, everyone else had either outlined possible cost-effective ways of starting or suggested some viable alternatives.

Just because you're used to continually defending GW, no matter what bat gak crazy shenanigans they pull, perhaps you should read what is written before getting defensive?

Was wondering when the blue man of creamy smoothness was going to show up. He does go by the name of BryllCream... Right???

Back to the topic. There are plenty of games to choose from and I agree with many of those already posted.

But to enjoy the game you are going to have to see what is being played in your local region. And if it is 40K or Mercs, or Warmachine/Hordes then that is where I think you should try your hand at.

Because it is not so fun to game alone. - Adam

 Pacific wrote:

Or, as an alternative, you have a more pluralistic view of the hobby in this section, that isn't full of people who only play GW games. And by comparing GW to other games, looking at the wider wargaming hobby, they are less likely to swallow the crap that is constantly flung at them.

I'd have more sympathy for that if I didn't follow this forum religiously. You're kidding yourself if you think it's fair or balanced or anything other than nerd rage against GW.

Let's stick to the topic.

To summarise the pros and cons so far:

40K
Most widely played, expensive

MERCS
Cheapest max cost, metal models

Infinity
Easy yet deep ruleset, metal models

The key point seems to be that the OP doesn't want to have to assemble metal models. Therefore he should pick 40K.