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I have been using my Swiftslayer Doombull build for awhile now and my opponents are of the opinion there is no meaner CC character. I have to believe there is so lets see the killer builds you guys have. This is not a thread about delivery or how to stop him just assume they make it to CC without issue. What makes them effective? What are past accomplishments of this build?

Doombull
Heavy Armor
Shield
MW-Sword of swift slaying
MA-Ramhorn
T-Dawnston
EI-Other Tricksters Shard
GoC-Gnarled Hide

This gives you a S6 T5 I5 1+ save guy that rerolls saves and each time he makes a successful save he gets an additional attack.
If he is fighting someone of lower initiative he gets reroll hits
He starts the game with 5 attacks and frenzy making it 6, each time he wins a round of combat he gets an additional attack.
D3 impact hits on the charge
Stomp at S6
Immune to killing blow.
5 wounds
Your opponent is forced to reroll ward saves.

I think the biggest thing I have ever taken down with him is a got him into a horde of 54 Orc Big'Uns, killed a warboss, bsb, lvl4 shaman and about half the big'uns before they broke, he lost 2 wounds in the process and accumulated 5 additional attacks.

So lets see the other sick Lords out there.

Archaeon...


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Choice of 6 or 10 attacks with no armour saves allowed
Can't be wounded on less than a 3
2+/3++
-1 to hit in CC
WS9 I7
3 additional additional attacks from mount
Autopasses Panic tests, rerolls break tests


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Oh, and can be buffed by eye of the gods

Dwarf Lord on Shieldbarers.... Give him some good Runes, and he will have a 1+/4++ save, and 6 WS 7 always strikes first no armour saves attacks. As well as 2 additonal WS5 S4 attacks for the Shieldbearers.

Uding an unamed lord,

Chaos Lord
Scaled Skin
Burning Body
Soul Feeder
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Talisman of preservation
Enchanted Shield
MoT
Obsidian Blade

0+/3++, reroll 1s on WS
5 S5 Flaming attacks with no AS, WS8
4 wounds T5 with chance to regain lost wounds
Buffed by Eye of Gods

Mount him on a gorebeast chariot for D6+1 KB impact hits and 5 extra attacks...

HE Lord on Star Dragon, Vambraces of Defense, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon, Amulet of Light. If the Lord doesn't kill you, chances are the Dragon will. It's probably not the most powerful CC Character in the game, but he's pretty powerful anyway.

Dark Elf Pendant lord with soulrender.

Bret HKB lord.

Lord Skrolk.

Tyrion.

Taurox.

Chakax.

Queek Headtaker.

Archaon.

A Bloodthirster.

Skulltaker.

For their cost, bretonnian lords are deadly.
lord- barded warhorse, virtue of heroism, sword of swift slaying, gromril great helm, potion of foolhardiness

5 asf hkb attacks with a 1+ re-roll armour save and the blessing save for less than 250 points!

WOC:
Flying deamon prince
Chaos armor
Mark of nurgle (most things will need sixes to hit him due the big WS + MoN)
1+str wep 2+ save to all first hits against him.
Flaming breath.
Soul feeder.

Wizard lvl's to your choise but death, but this was based CC... he's still good at that but a flying sorc to

Tzeentch lord on a disc or gorebeast.. but pretty much what Niteware said earlier.

Niteware wrote:
Uding an unamed lord,

Chaos Lord
Scaled Skin
Burning Body
Soul Feeder
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Talisman of preservation
Enchanted Shield
MoT
Obsidian Blade

0+/3++, reroll 1s on WS
5 S5 Flaming attacks with no AS, WS8
4 wounds T5 with chance to regain lost wounds
Buffed by Eye of Gods

Can't have 0+ in 8th edition.

-Matt


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Vampire Lord:
Beguile, Aura of Dark Majesty, Dreadknight, Quick Blood, Master Strike.
Tricksters Helm, Talisman of Preservation, lance, shield, heavy armor, barded steed.

1+ armor, 4+ ward, WS9. Ld -4 or re-roll to hit me. Re-roll to wound me. 5 ASF attacks at WS9 Init7, or trade them all for 1 with heroic killing blow. ASF mostly to negate opponents bonuses from ASF.

He's not a super beat-stick, but he is stupidly hard to kill. Heroic killing blow has scared more than one opponent into declining the challenge.





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For dwarfs, I used to run:
Lord on shield bearers, great weapon, re-roll armor saves, +1 to armor save, attacks greater than S5 count as S5, 4+ ward.
4 S6 attacks, 2 S4 attacks, 1+ re-rollable armor save, 4+ ward.

With strength maxing at S5, unless you've got an ignore armor weapon, you're wounding on a 4+ (at best) he's saving on 3+ (with re-roll) then 4+.

Worked well in 7th, should still do well in 8th.
-Matt

Faq says you can have 0+ , but that a 1 is always a fail.


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In fact, it removed the lower limit entirely


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The aditional paragraph for page 43 if you want to check it out

Damn there are some big beat sticks out there.

Niteware wrote:
Faq says you can have 0+ , but that a 1 is always a fail.


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In fact, it removed the lower limit entirely


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The aditional paragraph for page 43 if you want to check it out

This FAQ?
Page43–
Saving Throws. Change the third paragraph to “Note that a save of any kind can never be better than 1+. This does not prevent a model having items or special rules that would take the save even lower, its imply caps the saving throw at 1+. Also, remember that a roll of 1 is always a failure.

Still capped at 1+.
You can have a dark elf lord with heavy armor, enchanted shield, on a coldone, with a seadragon cloak, and cast glittering robe on them. Add up, it's a Negative 2 save, Negative 3 vs shooting. All that caps at 1+ though, so it counts as a 1+ save. If he's shot by a S5 shot, I need a 3+ to save.
If it did work the other way, a dark elf with all that gear would save against a cannon on a 3+ (since S10 is save -6, and he's save negative 3 or better vs shooting).

-Matt

Yes, it looks like it should save on a 3. Add up the gear and the minuses and you get the save - save isnt better than 1+ so is raw

Niteware wrote:
Yes, it looks like it should save on a 3. Add up the gear and the minuses and you get the save - save isnt better than 1+ so is raw

No, really, if you have a -3 save you're not capped to a 1+ and thus not following the rules.

Hmmm. So you are reading it that you can take the items but they don't do anything for AS? Surely saves are worked out situationally, after the attack has taken place? So the negatives are taken into acciubt as well as gear.

If yiu had Chaos arkour, scaled skin, enchanted shield this wiuld be 0+ (functionally 1+). If you had another time that gave you something at the expense of AS, some kind of sword of recklessness, you would add them all up to 1+.

What is the difference between this and ading a -7 modifier frkm a canon?


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My point being that your save is the number you have to throw ro save, rather than jist a theoretical number.

But it's not. If you're - then it becomes even harder for large str attacks to reduce that save. Not everything is either a cannon or str 3. The max is 1+. Which means 6+ Str negates all armor no matter what.

I understand what you ae saying there duke except that a) it didn't tackle the issues I raised and b) this wouldn't happen often so it is unlikely to be a major issue.

To reitterate, my point is that the sae is the number you have to throw, which is comprised of all the +s and -s. You can never have better than +1, but -3 +7 = +4, so is not better than +1.

The FAQ says you can take the gear, why would you be unable to count it?

If your save was always the aame (like a ward save) then I'd agree and I am open to a logixal argument...

Niteware wrote:
You can never have better than +1, but -3 +7 = +4, so is not better than +1.

But -3 IS better than 1+. Both of their saves translate into 2+ for a weak attack, but a 5str attack makes the 1+ a 3+ and it doesn't affect the -3 at all. That is "better." If you had to choose which one was superior it's no contest. Just because vs a low str attack they are identical doesn't mean they are equivalent on all attacks. A -3 armor save has a 6+ save against the center of a generic stone thrower, while a 1+ has long since lost all its protection.

Note that a model can never have a save (of any kind) better than 1+ for any reason, and that, even then, a roll of 1 is always a failure

Saying you can't have it "of any kind for any reason" is about as definitive as you can get.

Niteware wrote:
I understand what you ae saying there duke except that a) it didn't tackle the issues I raised and b) this wouldn't happen often so it is unlikely to be a major issue.

To reitterate, my point is that the sae is the number you have to throw, which is comprised of all the +s and -s. You can never have better than +1, but -3 +7 = +4, so is not better than +1.

The FAQ says you can take the gear, why would you be unable to count it?

If your save was always the aame (like a ward save) then I'd agree and I am open to a logixal argument...

The FAQ says you can't count it because you're limited to 1+.
Why are you allowed to take it?
Lets say I'm running empire with knights with great weapons (2+ armor). I have a lore of metal wizards, who wants to cast Glittering Robes on them (gives them scaly skin 5+).
Combined with barding, full plate, and being mounted, this would give them a 0+ save.
What the rule is saying, is that I can still legally target them with the spell, but the outcome is that I'm limited to 1+ armor.

Another example.
My Dark Elf lord is riding a cold one, with heavy armor, cloak. That gives him a 2+ armor save, 1+ vs shooting. If the FAQ didn't allow you to buy gear to improve you save beyond this, I wouldn't be able to take a shield, let along a dragon helm, as it would improve my armor save vs ranged attacks. So, the FAQ says, go ahead and buy the gear, but your save is capped at 1+.

Final Example.
Character with 1+ armor is leading empire greatswords (4+ armor from full plate). Without the specifics in the FAQ, I wouldn't be able to target the unit with glittering robes due to the presence of the character.

-Matt

How has no one mentioned a strigoi yet?

8 S5 attacks or 5 S8 attacks, other trickster's shard, poison, rerolls to hit, ASF, red fury. You got yourself a bloodthirster killer right there if you go the S sword or an entire unit killer if you go the A sword.

It depends on whether the cap is applied ex nihilo - so is capped at 1+ before deductions from attacks - or whether the sav exists at the time you are using it, which is whenstrength modifiers have been applieed.

The BRB says at any time for any reason. How you missing that?

So far it looks like VC, WoC, DE and HE all have some beat sticks, what about Skaven, OK, Empire, any of them have some crushers?

DukeRustfield wrote:
The BRB says at any time for any reason. How you missing that?

I'm not missing that... I'm not arguing that your save is better than 1+, because your save is the number you need to throw, rather than an abstract value. I am suggesting that your ave remains at 1+ if you have suffiecient +s to keep it there.


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So I got home and got my brb... the bit I was mising is the strength -s are NOT part of the AS, which does exist ex nihilo. The str bit is an AS modifier.

DoC greater daemons can get pretty silly.

Just a simple one:

Bloodthirster with Eternal Blade and multiple wounds (2). Every round his stats on average would be
8, 10, 10, 8, 6, 5, 10, 9, 9.
Which I'm pretty damn sure is the highest in the game without getting other buffs. He also has HA, a ward save, terror, thunderstomp, fly, magic resist, and every attack does 2 wounds, etc. In CC alone he could put out 24 wounds a round, assuming there was enough multi-wound targets around to take it.

All DoC GD are very powerful and have some outrageous abilities. It's just random if you get them sometimes.

tgf wrote:
So far it looks like VC, WoC, DE and HE all have some beat sticks, what about Skaven, OK, Empire, any of them have some crushers?

Skaven have Skrolk, who has a 1/6 chance of killing enemy characters before they even strike, is T5, 5 attacks at S6 on the first round, is WS6 and effectively provides all models barring Pestilens models with MoN. Then there is Queek, who has his 6 ignoring armour save attacks.

Empire have Kurt Helborg, Karl Franz, Fangmasters, Volkmar(Not sure about the new book).

I don't know the ogre items so I can't help you there.

DukeRustfield wrote:
DoC greater daemons can get pretty silly.

Just a simple one:

Bloodthirster with Eternal Blade and multiple wounds (2). Every round his stats on average would be
8, 10, 10, 8, 6, 5, 10, 9, 9.
Which I'm pretty damn sure is the highest in the game without getting other buffs. He also has HA, a ward save, terror, thunderstomp, fly, magic resist, and every attack does 2 wounds, etc. In CC alone he could put out 24 wounds a round, assuming there was enough multi-wound targets around to take it.

All DoC GD are very powerful and have some outrageous abilities. It's just random if you get them sometimes.

Toe to toe, the great unclean one beats him in combat.
Blood thirster is good, but "only" S6, an poor defense.

He's S8 with the sword (on avg) and S9 on the first round because of Khorne.

If the 2 fought with the same abilities above, the Bloodthirster would kill the GUO simply because of his max Init.

DukeRustfield wrote:
He's S8 with the sword (on avg) and S9 on the first round because of Khorne.

If the 2 fought with the same abilities above, the Bloodthirster would kill the GUO simply because of his max Init.

Sure, if they have the abilities that benefit the blood thrister.
But if the GUO gets toughness, or gets curse of the leaper off on himself, the balance shifts back to the GUO.

If they fight each other with no upgrades, the GUO slightly edges out the bloodthrister, due to having more wounds, and having poison attacks.

A level 4 GUO with fencers blades and 2 rolls on the lesser gifts is a beast.
-Matt

Sounds to me like they are both beat sticks. I didn't think DoC had BRB magic items availible to them.