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Hey Guys,

I have a World Eaters CSM army with allied Daemons, my brother (the only person im able to play regularly) has 3 armies (ork mega nob spam, necron flier spam and a SM bike spam with Vulcan) yet in the dick move of the century he has decided to sell them all and build 1 Grey knight terminator army... my question is this.... HOW THE FRICK AM I SUPPOSED TO BEAT THAT! am i correct in thinking this is going to be impossible?

Here is my list:
HQ: Skarbrand and a Bloodthirster
TROOPS: 4 units of 10 bloodletters
ALLIED HQ: 2 CSM daemon princes
ALLIED TROOPS: 2 squads of 10 cultists
ALLIED ELITES: 2 helbrutes
ALLIED HEAVY SUPPORT: 2 Maulerfiends

Here is his List:
HQ: Draigo and a Librarian
TROOPS: 1 unit of 10 paladins, 1 unit of 1 paladin and 1 unit of 10 terminators
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3 dreadnoughts with psybolt autocannons

My issue is this, due to psych out grenades if he charges me he will go first and has enough force weapons that he will instant kill ANYTHING that he charges as nothing has eternal warrior anymore. to add to this he takes sanctuary and quicksilver powers! Sanctuary making it so if i charge i count as going through difficult terrain (strike at Initiative 1) and he can also make himself initiative 10 with quicksilver! and even if i manage to get the charge and for some reason he was unable to use his powers, he will still most likely have more than enough left to kill me anyway. i can take out the dreads easy enough. but what chance do i have of taking out a unit that is practically guaranteed to go first and instant kill me in assault when I have no shooting!

please tell me if there is something I am missing because from where I stand he has just list tailored and selected an army that I stand 0% chance of competing against!

Yeah, you can beat him, but not with all those blood letters...I'd replace 2 squads with CSMs with bolters.

Avoid close combat by staying 18" away from his squads at all times.

Assault with blood letters on turn 5...

Keep the demon princes in the air, bringing them to the ground on turn 5...or trade them in for heldrakes, and bring a cheap lord to be the HQ...

Your maulerfiends are probably useless, I guess if you can get them into the paladins, they may hurt those squads, but avoid smashing dreadnoughts


Tactically you have a shot, just sway away and shoot your butt off

That's exactly what he's done, so get some allies!

Why does he need to sell 3 armies to build one of the cheapest lists ($$ wise) in the game? Or does he not enjoy those other armies anymore?

Minor note: You can only take a single unit from each FOC slot in an allied detachment. You can't have 2 HQs, 2 Elites, or 2 Heavy Supports.

Fear not! You actually have some good options.

1. Ignore them! You're likely going to have more scoring units, even if he combat squads everything. His infantry units are slow and only have a 30" threat bubble (6" move and 24" range guns). Throw him juicy threats (like monstrous creatures) and win the scoring game. Five out of six of the game types use objectives.
Note: The Portalglyph can be nice here. An extremely elite army can't waste shots on 2 Bloodletters.

2. Skull Cannons of Khorne (sticking with your theme) are actually pretty decent. His Dreadnoughts can destroy it pretty easily, but it removes the initiative loss from charging through difficult terrain - deals with Sanctuary. Although it doesn't ignore their armor, it will insta-gib Paladins with strength 8.

3. Obliterators, Vindicators, and Predators with lascannon sponsons are cheap, ignore his armor, and can insta-gib Paladins.

4. Especially if he isn't rolling on Divination, a Soul Grinder or two should really hurt. Apart from his Dreadnoughts, he doesn't have a great answer for it (and even strength 8 isn't fantastic against it). Paladins/Terminators without Hammers can't even hurt it in combat. It's strength 10 AP 2 in combat, striking before his hammers. It has some shooting, so it can hurt his Dreadnoughts and Troops at range.

Here's an important question - how much do you want to stick with your Khorne theme? If it's not super important, you have plenty more options.

It'll be hard, but you do have the tools to compete against a Termie heavy Grey Knights list. You won't be able to do it with Khorne, though. You can either spam Daemonettes and Seekers of Slaanesh for rending, which should have a decent chance of hurting his Termies (warning: they will be incredibly vulnerable to their offensive abilities; you will have to get very good at completely overwhelming him), or you can run Tzeentch heavy and grab as many instances of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway as you can. Chaos Space Marine allies can be a pretty big help, too, but you're going to want to go shooty instead of assaulty. Oblits w/ Lascannons can ID against their cover/invuln saves from long range. Grab as much S8/AP2+ as possible and ID his expensive models.

Edit: I also agree with Siphen's point about Soul Grinders. The one game I've played against a list like this my 3* Soul Grinders carried pretty hard.

Could be worse, he could be buying three dreadknights!

my list uses double FOC meaning you can take double allies, it is perfectly legal, but that is not the topic, the topic is how can i use it to beat the grey knights, i really do not want to change my list because that makes me as bad as him, (ok not quite but still) as for scoring units i have 6 units of 10 weeklings where as he can not only combat squad giving him 3 units of paladins and 2 units of terminators but he can also make D3 of his dreads scoring thanks to draigo....

I've tried fighting against those damn instant death weapons. Its impossible even how awesome your princes and skarbrand is.

The skulltaker is EW and have instant death on their AP:3 weapon. 2 wounds though.

3 vindicators would be awesome.

Changing your list isn't at all unfair. You don't want to play the exact same army every single game anyway. Test out your current list and if you don't have fun, then change it up.

The other option would be to simply ask him to drop Sanctuary and Quicksilver from his Librarian. Games are meant to be fun and if you feel that your army can't do anything against his, those two little psychic powers change everything. Without them, you can charge him and at least deal some damage.
To be perfectly honest, his list would be much stronger rolling on Divination anyway.

Do you know what equipment he gives his terminators, single paladin, and group of paladins?

Get your longest ranged str 8 ap 2 gun out and call it a day. He can put Draigo up front to avoid the ID for one group, but the rest will have problems.
The rest of the game will be about exploiting his lack of mobility. I'm not too familiar with your units, but it looks like a good amount of CC, am I right? I feel your pain here. Paladins happily munch on even the toughest monsters once the assault comes into play. Even more so against your demons, thanks to a myriad of special abilities. If you do feel the need to assault try to do so in a way that draws them away from whatever gun line you have assembled. If you can hold on for your turn and get whiped out on theirs, you're coming out ahead.
The dreadnaughts are certainly a problem. Facing just one is bad enough. Are your princes winged? They would seem your best bet to take out his ranged support. It's suicide to send them after the paladins anyways. If things go well, his dreadknights will be too distracted to take aim at your own heavy guns allowing them to focus on the paladins.
There are plenty of potential kinks still. He could start deep striking things in, threatening whatever formations you've assembled. Proper bubble wrapping of his dreads could also prevent any early assault. In any case, just remember that he faces an uphill battle (strategically speaking). With so few models on the table, every unlucky roll or poor decision can have dire consequences. Just don't play into his CC game and force him to make as many saving throws as possible. Victory will arrive eventually.

such a nancy girl LOL!
Its not hard to beat 20 Termies..
But If you want I can sell them and make a purifier list..
My Orks, Bikes and Necron are all much more competitive armies, this one is purely for fun..

I think my best bet is to dual assault with maulerfiends and princes and thirsters. This way your attacks are reduced to 1ea from lasher tendrils and that shouldn't be enough to whipe me out...

That sounds like the worst option. Charging in with expensive units that the paladins can easily splat with their hammers will cause you to lose.
You need some foot troops. You've got barely any troops and barely any guns. The best way to kill paladins is to shoot them. Plasma, melta, torrent bolters. They're also very slow and have very short range.
Don't play to his advantages by charging into combat, play to his weaknesses by giving him too many cheap units to kill.

Heres another quick question. Does a maulerfiends lasher tendrils reduce the attacks of a character in a challenge?

AFAIK Maulerfeinds aren't characters and thus can't challenge. Which means that it can't affect a character who is in a challenge as it's effectively a separate combat.

so say an enemy character challanges a bloodthirster in a multiple combat which a maulerfiend is in?

No the maulerfiend isn't a character. There's no way around it, you must be a character to be involved in a challenge. Challenges aren't against a specific enemy either. You issue a challenge, if your opponent accepts, your opponent selects the character. If your opponent declines, you select the character that will not fight. You can't single out a character model unless it is the only character there.

 Juggalo17 wrote:
so say an enemy character challanges a bloodthirster in a multiple combat which a maulerfiend is in?

It doesn't the moment they enter challenge they are counted as b2b only with each other therefore the lashers wouldn't have effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:
No the maulerfiend isn't a character. There's no way around it, you must be a character to be involved in a challenge. Challenges aren't against a specific enemy either. You issue a challenge, if your opponent accepts, your opponent selects the character. If your opponent declines, you select the character that will not fight. You can't single out a character model unless it is the only character there.

I think he was referring to having the Bloodthirster in challenge but the mauler next to him at the same time, not the mauler actually challenging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic thou, what you need is some vindicators, 1-2 vindicators should obliterate the paladins before they can get close, being S10 means they are instakilled and also denies them FnP if they have an apothecary. The only problem would be draigo tanking the wounds with his sv3++ and EW, So make sure Draigo isn't the closest model to your vindies.

Oh, and if you are tailoring against GKs don't get the heldrakes as suggested above, they do nothing against that many termies.

Heldrakes are still good against Purifiers, Strike squads and the alike.

Vindicators aren't that great... I think Obliterators is the best for them since it can take out their Dreads and kill the Termies with assault cannons etc...

Oblits just seem too versatile to not bring.

Why would you kill the termies with assault cannons when you have plasma cannons/TL plasma guns? I second the use of vindicators, S10 AP2 is nothing to sneeze at. Shoot the paladins, then the termies, then if the tanks are still alive go for the dreads (though oblits would be better for taking those out).

The ideal weapon for killing a termie is AP2 or better, the ideal weapon for killing a paladin is S8 AP2 or better. With a large blast, you can generally get at least 3 40mm bases on average...that's 175 pts of paladins with only a 5++ between them and ID. Put them on opposite sides of the board so it's harder for Draigo to tank the shots (and if he does that, use bolters for torrent fire). If you have something that can fly, go for the dreads in close combat, they won't do so well there with no DCCW and you'll need to take them out so your vindicators have a better chance of survival.

 Makutsu wrote:
Heldrakes are still good against Purifiers, Strike squads and the alike.

Vindicators aren't that great... I think Obliterators is the best for them since it can take out their Dreads and kill the Termies with assault cannons etc...

Oblits just seem too versatile to not bring.

The list the OP posted has no sv3+ which makes the heldrake worthless, against a GK list which uses indeed purifiers yeah it's ok, but that is the only thing the heldrake will do.

Regarding the oblies, each Assault cannon inflicts 0.49 wounds on a paladin (assuming they have an apothecary, otherwise it is 0.74), that means you need to shoot them 40.5 times (assuming a squad of 3 that is 14 shooting turns) to kill a 10 man squad, which won't happen.

Lascannons/meltas might be you best shot against paladins (since plasmas allow FnP) with oblies and even then each lascannon/melta shot makes 0.29 wounds which would negate FnP and instakill them so mathematically you just need 33.75 lascannon/melta (on a squad of 3 thats 11 shooting turns) shots to kill the 10 of them.

It is hard to calculate the many probabilities involving a blast shot but assuming you roll an avg of 7" on 2 dice -4" due to WS, and assuming the paladins are spread lets say you hit 3 paladins per turn. That is 2 dead paladins in one shot, only 5 turns to kill 10 paladins, if you got 2 vindis they should be dead by turn 3.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
Heldrakes are still good against Purifiers, Strike squads and the alike.

Vindicators aren't that great... I think Obliterators is the best for them since it can take out their Dreads and kill the Termies with assault cannons etc...

Oblits just seem too versatile to not bring.

The list the OP posted has no sv3+ which makes the heldrake worthless, against a GK list which uses indeed purifiers yeah it's ok, but that is the only thing the heldrake will do.

Regarding the oblies, each Assault cannon inflicts 0.49 wounds on a paladin (assuming they have an apothecary, otherwise it is 0.74), that means you need to shoot them 40.5 times (assuming a squad of 3 that is 14 shooting turns) to kill a 10 man squad, which won't happen.

Lascannons/meltas might be you best shot against paladins (since plasmas allow FnP) with oblies and even then each lascannon/melta shot makes 0.29 wounds which would negate FnP and instakill them so mathematically you just need 33.75 lascannon/melta (on a squad of 3 thats 11 shooting turns) shots to kill the 10 of them.

It is hard to calculate the many probabilities involving a blast shot but assuming you roll an avg of 7" on 2 dice -4" due to WS, and assuming the paladins are spread lets say you hit 3 paladins per turn. That is 2 dead paladins in one shot, only 5 turns to kill 10 paladins, if you got 2 vindis they should be dead by turn 3.

Oh yeah I forgot about that Pallies are 2 wounds...
Yeah, then Vindicator would probably do a good job.

I also think a Tzeentch Daemon Prince with Telepathy and Black Mace will fair pretty nicely.
Just make sure invisibility or the hallucination goes off before going into the charge.
If you rolled the bug one for Halluncination it essentially nullifies them for a turn.

Black Mace will probably kill a bunch just like that from the charge, and or you could challenge isolating out a character or removing 1 less attacker.

He minmax'd to beat YOUR army. Lol. Well...switch armies? Twould be hilarious. Or just get another one. EBay for the win.

You could try kharn the betrayer, ap 2 at initiative and can't be insta killed by force weapons due to 'blessing of the blood god'.

Plus he's Khorne which fits with the theme.

I think most of you are not seeing the larger picture.
Games workshop want you to think taking some vindicators would be the best idea because they make money off it, then as soon as his opponent realised that he added Vindicators he will add something to counter them making more money for GW, then Juggalo17 would have to get something to counter the things that counter his Vindicators, etc, etc.
It is a never ending circle that only GW will benefit from!
The best thing to do is write an army that you like and then learn how to play it, if you lose all the time it can only mean 2 things.. your list is horrible or your tactics are horrible, or possibly your opponent is just better than you are.
I have not once made an army to specifically counter an opponent and always spend time writing my list making sure i can deal with any threat i Verse, every single army I have made I pend time writing a good list, then i buy the army and dont ever need to make changes with the exception of when my opponents decide to deliberately make an army that specifically counters mine so I would just sell my army and move on to something different. which I believe isnt what Warhammer is about, although it seems like GW thinks that is what warhammer is all about!

I agree with the Kharn post if you want to stay fluffy. Also a chaos lord with the blind ax would fit in. Both of those guys hit at initiative. If the lord is in terminator armor, he will be hitting before any ap 1 guys go.

Lascannon predator would pull good double duty killing both dreadnoughts and paladins at long range. AV 13 isn't that easy to get through up front.

Sinny! wrote:

as his opponent realised that he added Vindicators he will add something to counter them making more money for GW, then Juggalo17 would have to get something to counter the things that counter his Vindicators, etc, etc.

It's not quite that simple though. things that counter tanks are generally poor against massed infantry. He could easily just trade back in the infantry rather than going out and buying more. The same applies for other unit types.

It is a never ending circle that only GW will benefit from!

Why is the company that produces the models I love and the game I enjoy the enemy? That's a ridiculous stance to take.

The best thing to do is write an army that you like and then learn how to play it.

So suggesting to him to make a more tac list, and more tac collection in general is a good idea. Which is what people are doing. Adding the example of vindicators (although I'm not a fan) would aid his list to be more tac, since if you can't handle terminators then you've clearly made a list with weaknesses. No one is suggesting "make a list that exactly counters draigowing" they are adding ideas to help him deal with 2+ spam.

i don't think its a total loss.

Since you are going Daemon's primary, remember that your Heralds can all trade in their gifts for ether / greater etherblades or whatever that Khorne axe is. Ap2 with great weapon skill and initiative, is pretty solid. It will really open up a lot more terminator armour busting capabilities in your army.

Also as was pointed out, Skull Cannons are an excellent idea, since if you charge the last thing you want is to go last due to terrain.

FLESHHOUNDS. 2+ invlunerable save against Force Weapons means a squad of these bad boys can tie down Grey Knights forever.

Kharn the Betrayer. ap2 at initiative, buckets and buckets of attacks. He is a terminator killing machine. Hes also immune to the Instant death effects of force weapons. So just needs to worry about Hamemrs IDing him, etc.

Generally the best way to beat Draigo Wing, is to not worry about Draigo's squad until the end. Go after his regular GKT, go after his Solo Paladin. Once those threats are gone, you can start to consider how you will defeat Draigo and Pals.

You should have no shortage of high initiative, high strenght ap 2. Busting up terminators in cc is a problem sure, but its far from impossible.

8 heralds with greater ether blades in 25 man daemonette shells with screamers to kill the dreads... Might make him cry