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Okay. So I'm planning to field a Heldrake in a friendly campaign against orks. Both of us have a flier (My Heldrake and his Dakkajet/Burna Bomma).
The Orks I will be facing typically com in large numbers of ladz, with some elements of mechanization (Trukks and Battlewagonz).

There are likely to be at least one unit of lootaz with a Big Mek w/SAG, and probably some stormboyz (who love deepstriking on my head).

My question is, how effective do you think a Heldrake with baleflamer is going to be?

They are always effective. But just how effective depends on the meticulousness of your opponent, if he spreads out properly expect to do far less damage than expected.

Well, its somewhat useful. The Ork army as described could be able to shoot it down. So count too much on it. But it can do some damage when it arrives. Lootas should be the first target.

It's a little overkill for orks. I'd rock the hades autocannon drake to wreck some vehicles or the dakkajet.

One of the big bonuses it brings is being able to vetor strike to hurt the smaller units (bikes, buggies, coptas), or bearking open trukks and battle wagons before flaming the boyz - agree with other posters, lootas first.

I wouldn't worry aoo much about kitting out for dakka jets (unless they are spamming), their aweful armour makes them vulnerable to everything (just like the heldrakes rear armour!)

It would be really useful in taking out the inevitable biker nobz right? Both flamer and Vectorstrike ignore cover and armoursave, leaving them on just a flimsey 5++ 5+++. Would also do good vs the BIg gunz right? Majority toughness being 3 and all you melt a god load of gretchins and if your lucky you melt the Arty with no save. My question to you is, when is a Heldrake not useful?

When you fight me...

Seriously, my mate's Heldrake has yet to inflict the level of kill it is famous for against me. Im not even remotely afraid of it like the majority of MEQ armies are. I dont even think it is worth 170 points for what it does

Interesting question as I run CSM against my girlfriend's orks regularly. Here's the deal...

Your heldrake is there to peel the backfield troops off objectives to deny them. They're superior anti-infantry. As stated earlier, lootas first. They hit on 5s normally and put out massive shots at 7 S. Since she plays them regularly on back field or in cover, I make a point of using the heldrake on them since he just doesn't care with that baleflamer. On my way back there I try to vector strike light armor (generally kans in my case. trukks are a nice target as well).

Remember to NEVER show your back to a large mob. Orks don't mind taking snap shots as much and that rear 10 is its glaring hole. Along that line, never hover unless you need to make a late game shot or a late game 180 pivot. Immediately resume zooming asap. this is true of any army.

Another reminder is that your opponent's Big Mek is T3. Guess who has a S6 template? Yeah, you. There's your STW point. If he's not holed up in a transport, he's generally a sitting duck. Use you're mobility to get him closest to your heldrake and spit hot fire.

Most important part. Be familiar with the stack of rules the heldrake comes with and check the errata/FAQ. It's weapon is a turret mounted weapon measured from the base. Combined with torrent you can lay your template down almost anywhere nearby. Keep in mind that the drake is a daemon, aka has a 5++ invulnerable save. You won't be using jink, which would keep you from flaming. Daemonforge may come in handy but i haven't really needed it. It Will Not Die is the shiz. Remember to make those rolls to regain the Hull Points. The Vector Strike is resolved at S7 with AP3 and ignores cover. Good to use on quadguns if you encounter any.

If you can, take two. They work well in tandem. I'm not much for spamming, but they're distracting as hell for most people. Best options for most opponents are to block LOS or bring 2+. They lose a lot of their punch.

Dakkajets? I generally try and ignore them unless they're causing problems, but if nothing else is available, vector strike them. A C&B near their own infantry can be fun.

Don't be afraid to leave the board. Ongoing reserves is an automatic pass on your following turn and can be a great way to maneuver or to avoid rear armor shots.

Best advice? Don't be mean. If you're playing a friendly campaign, I'll leave with saying that she dislikes playing me (even though I've only beaten her once) because I play hard defense with my heldrakes running point to clear infantry. I've listened to multiple opponents who have just beaten me go on a rant about how my heldrake(s) are OP. They are. If you choose to field one or more, be sure not to ruin a fun game night with sore feelings.

 reiner wrote:
Interesting question as I run CSM against my girlfriend's orks regularly. Here's the deal...

Your heldrake is there to peel the backfield troops off objectives to deny them. They're superior anti-infantry. As stated earlier, lootas first. They hit on 5s normally and put out massive shots at 7 S. Since she plays them regularly on back field or in cover, I make a point of using the heldrake on them since he just doesn't care with that baleflamer. On my way back there I try to vector strike light armor (generally kans in my case. trukks are a nice target as well).

Remember to NEVER show your back to a large mob. Orks don't mind taking snap shots as much and that rear 10 is its glaring hole. Along that line, never hover unless you need to make a late game shot or a late game 180 pivot. Immediately resume zooming asap. this is true of any army.

Another reminder is that your opponent's Big Mek is T3. Guess who has a S6 template? Yeah, you. There's your STW point. If he's not holed up in a transport, he's generally a sitting duck. Use you're mobility to get him closest to your heldrake and spit hot fire.

Most important part. Be familiar with the stack of rules the heldrake comes with and check the errata/FAQ. It's weapon is a turret mounted weapon measured from the base. Combined with torrent you can lay your template down almost anywhere nearby. Keep in mind that the drake is a daemon, aka has a 5++ invulnerable save. You won't be using jink, which would keep you from flaming. Daemonforge may come in handy but i haven't really needed it. It Will Not Die is the shiz. Remember to make those rolls to regain the Hull Points. The Vector Strike is resolved at S7 with AP3 and ignores cover. Good to use on quadguns if you encounter any.

If you can, take two. They work well in tandem. I'm not much for spamming, but they're distracting as hell for most people. Best options for most opponents are to block LOS or bring 2+. They lose a lot of their punch.

Dakkajets? I generally try and ignore them unless they're causing problems, but if nothing else is available, vector strike them. A C&B near their own infantry can be fun.

Don't be afraid to leave the board. Ongoing reserves is an automatic pass on your following turn and can be a great way to maneuver or to avoid rear armor shots.

Best advice? Don't be mean. If you're playing a friendly campaign, I'll leave with saying that she dislikes playing me (even though I've only beaten her once) because I play hard defense with my heldrakes running point to clear infantry. I've listened to multiple opponents who have just beaten me go on a rant about how my heldrake(s) are OP. They are. If you choose to field one or more, be sure not to ruin a fun game night with sore feelings.

Thank you for the detailed post Exalted.
This information is very useful for me

It isn't worth it because you are paying a high price for an AP3 flamer, which the orks really don't care, any flamer will do the same job. Sure the VS is nice against light vehicles and everything but for the cost of a heldrake you probably can afford a better unit to deal with them, say... havocs or oblies.

A lot of good info here except that the Big Mek is T4, like most Orks so not sure why someone would think T3?

I specifically made an Ork list of 100% 5++ and FnP to counter 2 Helldrakes at 750 and 1000.

I lost more stuff to the Vector Strikes then the baleflamer.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/511971.page

I look forward to the opponent bringing Helldrakes (and Vendettas) as both are an almost complete waste against my lists. The all eventually hover since I've usually wiped out everything else they had, including Abadon.

Lord Yayula wrote:It isn't worth it because you are paying a high price for an AP3 flamer, which the orks really don't care, any flamer will do the same job. Sure the VS is nice against light vehicles and everything but for the cost of a heldrake you probably can afford a better unit to deal with them, say... havocs or oblies.

The AP3 isn't what's useful, it's the mobility and ignoring cover. The heldrake is ineffective against higher AV so I usually bring along some obliterators for that. Two unmarked oblits are going to run 30 points less than a heldrake. You are correct in asserting that they are not insta-win models.

PipeAlley wrote:A lot of good info here except that the Big Mek is T4, like most Orks so not sure why someone would think T3

My bad! PipeAlley is correct here. I didn't remember this correctly.

I'll be flogged again when I return home....

Probably thought the Big Mek was T3 because it always regarded as vastly weaker than a Warboss - which he isnt AS bad as people make him out to be, i still tend to kit him with a Pklaw so i got 2 in a blob of boyz, 1 of which accepts challenges (the nob) the other klaws whatever is around (kff mek).

The only thing i fear of that Heldrake is if i cant take it out fast enough and it 1shots my lootas. 90% of the time i play the terrain doesnt allow me to have any cover whatsoever if i am spread out a bit unless i want a huge blindspot in my sight. So i end up deploying them in a ball on top of ruins so they can actually shoot something - so anything thats an AoE even if it doesnt ignore cover is ahuge threat.

A local cron player that is building CSM got his heldrake a couple day sago and the first thing he said was "HA! Your Nobz Are Belong To MEEE!" i just go "Cool, youre at most going to cause 4 wounds with that if i watch what im doing, i get my 5++ 5+++ still which isnt AS bad as you think, and dual wounds so you might not even kill a model. And you wound on 3s, not 2s."
Pain in the butt, yes. Counter? No. A single heavy or bigger flamer is not a threat to my bikernobz, but it is to most anything else lol.

Heldrakes are the ultimate tac choice. Ap3 is great, their mobility is great, the torrent is great and ignoring cover is fantastic.

The only match ups where they'd be a burden are TEQ spam DW (fortunately it's pretty weak so shouldn't be an issue) and flying circus daemons. Even then it can still fulfil an important role of clearing some cheap troops off an objective, which is far more important than "making its points back".

If your CSM army cannot kill troops or indeed any infantry with a 3+ save or worse, and for some reason you have to use your helldrake with the flamer to do so, you're doing CSM wrong.

Stick to the autocannon, it's great for taking out light vehicles and fliers, plus with vector strike you can always put the hurt on one unit with d3+1 str 7 ap 3 hits with no cover. Far better then the flamer averages against a good player.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
It would be really useful in taking out the inevitable biker nobz right? Both flamer and Vectorstrike ignore cover and armoursave, leaving them on just a flimsey 5++ 5+++. Would also do good vs the BIg gunz right? Majority toughness being 3 and all you melt a god load of gretchins and if your lucky you melt the Arty with no save. My question to you is, when is a Heldrake not useful?

Majority toughness does not apply for artillery.

 juraigamer wrote:
If your CSM army cannot kill troops or indeed any infantry with a 3+ save or worse, and for some reason you have to use your helldrake with the flamer to do so, you're doing CSM wrong.

Stick to the autocannon, it's great for taking out light vehicles and fliers, plus with vector strike you can always put the hurt on one unit with d3+1 str 7 ap 3 hits with no cover. Far better then the flamer averages against a good player.

you are the first person to share my viewpoint on his...

 IHateNids wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
If your CSM army cannot kill troops or indeed any infantry with a 3+ save or worse, and for some reason you have to use your helldrake with the flamer to do so, you're doing CSM wrong.

Stick to the autocannon, it's great for taking out light vehicles and fliers, plus with vector strike you can always put the hurt on one unit with d3+1 str 7 ap 3 hits with no cover. Far better then the flamer averages against a good player.

you are the first person to share my viewpoint on his...

I also share the viewpoint, but in that I see it as the weapon of choice for any second Heldrakes. The first is burny enough for my taste, after that, I want some more solid fire support.

 Selym wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
If your CSM army cannot kill troops or indeed any infantry with a 3+ save or worse, and for some reason you have to use your helldrake with the flamer to do so, you're doing CSM wrong.

Stick to the autocannon, it's great for taking out light vehicles and fliers, plus with vector strike you can always put the hurt on one unit with d3+1 str 7 ap 3 hits with no cover. Far better then the flamer averages against a good player.

you are the first person to share my viewpoint on his...

I also share the viewpoint, but in that I see it as the weapon of choice for any second Heldrakes. The first is burny enough for my taste, after that, I want some more solid fire support.

I thought long and hard before putting my heldrakes head together. I concluded that a dragon monster thing needs to flamer. There are plenty of other things in the list to take on armour or flyer spam; forgefiend gets twice the dakka for the same points for instance.

I've had good luck using them against backfield grots. When you lay down the template, make sure that you will fry the ork with the grots, and then usually they will run off the table due to 25% causalities. If by luck your opponent manages to make that 5+ leadership, vector strike the grots on your way off the board to cause another leadership test.