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Alright, so I have been playing Warhammer 40,000 for about a year.

I've taken a few loses, and kept getting better by learning from my mistakes.

The people I play against are... not the brightest bulbs in the closet, and after a bit of time I've tweaked a list that they are having a hard time beating.

Yesterday, I played against a grey knight player. He had 100 point advantage over me, and although I won't go into extensive detail, I cleared the table in 4 turns.

Thing is, during it, he seemed to be really annoyed. I yet to lose any victory points to him, and he was downed to 2 squads.

I then didn't want to ruin our friendship...so I deliberately made my 2 warbikers, instead of retreating 24 inches(and denying him from receiving ANY victory points), charged in and he got a point. I said "firing the big shoot from my trukk to your terminators" and he said something along the lines of "come on man thats not fair" so I canceled the order.

I deliberately played my shooting-heavy army as an assault army because before the game started he said "you're not just going to sit back and shoot me are you" even though by charging I still was able to crush him, utterly. Like 90% of my games. I'm not trying to brag.

So here is my question. What should I do? Do I deliberately play poorly and use crappy army lists and make the game unfun for me, or do I use actual well-thought-out armies, utterly destroy them, but risk them never wanting to play with me again?

Disclaimer: Before the game started, he said "come at me bro".

Destroy them. Make them weep and lick their tears from their face as they cry.
But really just play the game, if they want to win, they have to get better.

Sore losers are sore losers! I lose almost every game i play against my cousin but we jam out and have a good time laughing and yelling at each other the whole time. If he is going to take an army that is hard to take against shooty armies and he doesnt know how to counter them then you should find a better opponent. Im not a fan of dumbing down my lists to suit other people. Im too competetitive to go super easy on people but im by no means WAAC lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and if someone says, "come at me bro" my object is to table them on turn 2 if possible lol

Thing is, you've clearly demonstrated a willingness for a "casual game" by trying to handicap yourself...but, this guy tells you to "Come at you 'Bro", and proceeds to vent against a viable strategy he clearly wasn't prepared or unwilling to go against. So don't go easy next time. Seriously, this guy has got to shape up, otherwise, the only person he'll ever want to play is you because you opt to handicap yourself while everyone else will hand him his butt on a silver plate.

I know it's a tough call because you want to remain friends...but he's acting like a butt; and if your friendship hinges on whether or not you would throw the game (every game) for him, uhm.........


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know you friend best, if there's a "friendly" way to goad him into being a better player - do it. In the long run you'll both benefit.

It isn't your job to lose to people. It's their job to beat you. I never mind a loss if I feel I've learned something, even if I lose repeatedly to the same person. And that happens to everyone at one point or another; repeated butt-kickings by a dirty nemesis.

Beat him not beyond the point where he is not completely at a loss at how to beat your list, and keep pushing him. Maybe even give him some after game advice.

I hate powergaming, but even I reckon if thats how he wanted to play, lay waste with the strongest army you can field.

Just make sure that both players agree if its a "play to win" or "play for fun" game at the start, and then play accordingly. If he wants to play to win but gets pissed when your shooty army stands back and shoots, tough gak for him.

I am in the exact same boat. I have switched armies 3 times already to get people to play me. Nids were considered weak at my store till I played them.

I don't handicap myself tho as I only play league games and in tournaments for prizes.

They made a league rule just for me! If no one will play me that week i get a win.

I don't see how orcs would beat GK or Nids esp if they know what they are going up against. Don't live in New Orleans do you? I'd fix your little red trukk.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Destroy them. Make them weep and lick their tears from their face as they cry.

This. Sounds like this person just likes to whine instead of trying to get better at the game, so either crush them and move on or just don't bother playing 40k against them.

"Destroy them. Make them weep and lick their tears from their face as they cry."


My only problem with this advice is it might not be sanitary and not everyone takes a bath everyday.

What's your army, and what's your list?

If I'm playing people that I've repeatedly beaten before, I won't dumb down my tactics, because that's no fun for anybody. I will, however, alter my list- take a few options that I think are cool, but not necessarily good. Drop a Vendetta for some Sentinels, drop an Exorcist for a pair of Penitent Engines, etc. Then I go at them as hard as I can. I still have fun, they still have fun, I get to try out some new combos, and maybe we both get to improve our game a little bit.

That being said, if it's a league, or a tournament, or any sort of ranked game, bring your best to the table- list and tactics. If they're running their mouth before, during, and after every match-up, reach for your grater and bring the cheese. If they've got a min-maxed cron-air netlist, even if they don't know how to use it, then don't feel bad about throwing a box of Valkyries at them. But if it's a friendly matchup, and you know going into it that I have the upper hand, I see nothing wrong with taking the opportunity to see how some new, and possibly less-than-optimal, units can pressed into service- because sometimes you'll learn something about your army that you never knew before, and if not, it's always good for a laugh. And if you're still whooping them, even when you're using Tyrannofexes and Chaos Land Raiders, then maybe it's time to either find some new opponents, or, if they're friends, take them under your wing in a 2-on-2 and try to give them some advice to improve their game.

If they are "not the brightest bulbs" have you considered giveing them some strategy advice while playing? Or maybe after the game? Maybe with a little friendly coaching they can get better. Or maybe set up a doubles game where you can team with them so your coaching tips will be better received.

Snoipah wrote:
So here is my question. What should I do? Do I deliberately play poorly and use crappy army lists and make the game unfun for me, or do I use actual well-thought-out armies, utterly destroy them, but risk them never wanting to play with me again?

It seems like you answered your own question. If playing the way that they want you to play is unfun, then what risk is there of them not wanting to play you?

Having said that, you can always give them advice.

Win as much as you can, don't stop being competitive, just be nice while doing it. As long as you are nice, cordial, and friendly, I wouldn't care if you destroyed my army. It sounds like you're pretty nice so you shouldn't have a problem. if its a beginner, go easy on them, but otherwise, use the best strategies you can.

hope that helps a bit
-Color sgt Kell

"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters

I'm of the opinion that you should never make sub-optimal moves for your situation. It's patronizing and cheapens any success they may have as a result. However, starting at a deficit and playing at full capacity can be fun for you as well as your opponent (who gets an advantage, but knows that you didn't hold back during the game). Also, be sure to point out anything that your opponent misses and give them the option for a do-over. If he fires at a vehicle inside your KFF, point out that you're getting a cover save and, if he wants, let him retarget at a vehicle outside its protection.

One thing you might try (if you're friendly with these players at all) is reading up on their preferred codexes and giving them some tips. Pointing out which units are best at countering your preferred army can result in better performance for them and more challenge for you.

The only problem with not holding back is people will quit the hobby. I know for a fact that the 2 people that asked that I be dropped from league play for being too competitive quit b/c the store didn't drop me.

The store stuck up for me but lost money. I think it is a no win situation.

Azreal13 Nice Genghis Khan quote.

It isn't a no win situation. You still can have fun while crushing someone's army; The onus is on you to make the game fun despite whatever actually happens in the game

I can't teach you how to be a fun person, but just relaxing and not taking it too seriously helps.

I find crafting either fluffy lists, naming models and creating a narrative helps, especially if he's a regular gaming opponent. This way you can create a continuity for your armies between games,
so that crushing defeats can be hilarious for both players as it becomes a race to see how hard the army that loses usually can fail.

Going all out to win can be very exciting if playing competitively, but does create tensions between both players.

You need to give them advice without being condescending or patronizing. Before the game you could look over their list and make any suggestions.

Since you know you can beat them your next challenge is to make your opponents better players. My regular opponent and I always talk about the game we just finished and try and figure out what we might of done differently. Sometimes it turns out that one of us feels like they goofed up a particular decision but the other person thinks it was not a serious error. If the people you are playing against are immature, it may be a really tough situation for you to salvage.

You could for example ask them what they think is hard to deal with about your army and then advise them how you would counter it if you were playing their army.

My problem is that I don't enjoy making my opponents better players or I would do it.

I have asked them after the game why they did some that was just absolutely insane. Like why the guy just kept dropping obliterators one after another next to Coteaz, 3 PC Servitors, and 5 Jokearos. He told me b/c he thought one might get thru, I just sighed and said that would never happen with that amount of fire power and Coteaz w/ Prescience. They just don't get it and I don't enjoy beating my head against a brick wall.

So just stop playing against them. You obviously have different and incompatible goals (competitive strategy vs. screwing around throwing dice) and neither side wants to change, so continuing to play is just making everyone unhappy for no good reason.

Conan The Barbarian (1982):
"Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good."

But really, I always say to do whatever makes the game enjoyable. Now, I haven't played a game since 3rd and have been recently amping up to get back into it when I get back from Afghanistan, but my main goal in gaming, of any sort, is to have fun on both sides of the table. But then I have never really seen a reason to be overly competitive in my little toy soldiers hobby. I'm also very laid back and comfortable with myself as is, so winning and losing have no impact on my day! Anyway, happy gaming!!!

You know if you aren't at a tournament or practicing for a tournament I say take it easy (as long as it's still fun for you). It's more important to have a friend at the end of the game. If you want him to get better try telling him exactly what the list is designed to do and challenge him to beat it. tell him to tailor his list against it saying that you want to see how you'll do against the "worst case scenario". Say stuff like "you know what would be a rough unit for me to deal with?" Or say to spectators (when well within earshot) "oh crap now he's just going to do x next turn and wreck me"
two of the biggest and most basic things to learn in this game are target priority and keeping a view of the big picture (i.e. going for objectives rather than just killing things). if you can teach him that you'll both have a better game.


well that started to stray off topic... ADD ho!

The problem is they play in the league.

 Mythra wrote:
The problem is they play in the league.

See, this guy's example is the problem. (I am going to make the assumption that this league intended to count and reward wins, and had no 'competition doesn't matter' type of clause.) It's people who voluntarily put themselves in a competitive environment. I have never had a problem with people enjoying a game their own way, different people derive enjoyment from different things. The problem comes when they march into a place where people are enjoying a different aspect of the game and demand to be catered to. These guys walked into a competitive event, found competition, and got mad at that. The onus is on BOTH people to provide an enjoyable experience, and the event placed a certain expectation on them. If you don't find it fun, why are you there? This is something I've always been irritated by in the past as well. In MMOs, people will join raids going I AM A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE AND WILL PLAY AND SPEC HOW I LIKE, IT'S MY SUBSCRIPTION FEE SO I CAN DO THAT. And the response is, this is a raid environment, there are certain expectations, everyone here has paid their own subscription fees, and you are damaging THEIR enjoyment of the game by standing in fire and wasting their time. Being a good players goes both ways. Going into a tournament or league and expecting people to softserve you because that's what YOU want hurts THEIR enjoyment. Everyone involved has an equal 'right to fun' so to speak, but the specific event DEFINES an expectation set.

My stance on what Mythra did is that he and his store were entirely correct in their position, because the two others had unrealistic and selfish expectations. If Mythra had stepped it down, then he diminishes his own enjoyment now, and these guys get the idea they can continue to bully him and others out the same way. They don't get to define 'too competitive' as 'beats them'.

I have much the same problem. In my weekly league I've not lost since August of 2011 (only 3 draws since then too)... often playing 2 games a week, against roughly 20 different players. I don't even play the same faction, let alone list (see sig).

At first they wanted beating me to mean something. Now we have a comp system where I spot them 2 victory points and I play 80% the points they do.

Recently I've had some really close games and they feel like they have a chance to beat me. Once I've lost, I'll ditch the comp. Next time I lose, I'll go up to 90% points. Do something like this. You get to try, they get a chance. This way no one's holding back, but it stays competitive.

I was under the impression "come at me, bro." was universal for let's try to beat the hell out of each other. I mean he threw down the gauntlet.

Sometimes I try out new, or crazy lists and see how things work out. It is their job to learn from their losses; so don't ruin your fun for them to have a chance at an "easy" win. I mean I always want people to play their best against me. Even if they are trying out something new, so I try to meet out that same respect.

Bad sports are not real friends.

Real friends are happy for your win.

ini this situation i woudl play the list You wat to play - but "in the interests of good sportsmanship" give hi hints durign his turn to help him improve.

I played agame against a guy last week who was using his DA for the first time and, until i told him, didn't know that Belial didn't scatter or thst he ha a teleport homer to bring in more DW on top of him.

Spent most of the game telling him how to kill my necrons.

 Praxiss wrote:
ini this situation i woudl play the list You wat to play - but "in the interests of good sportsmanship" give hi hints durign his turn to help him improve.

I played agame against a guy last week who was using his DA for the first time and, until i told him, didn't know that Belial didn't scatter or thst he ha a teleport homer to bring in more DW on top of him.

Spent most of the game telling him how to kill my necrons.

I tend to do this as well.

I play at a few places, one is very non competitive and as such I hardly go there (not really knowing the rules, bad lists etc, really have to tone my game down there), another place is a store, there is a core of 5 tourny level players def the best place for me to game (4tk in colchester), another place is the Overlords home of the overlords podcast, mixed bag down there few competitive players few not so competitive, do take nicer lists there then I do to 4tk and started going to another place which looks to be the same as the overlords.

Had a game on Sunday, fella I played is a long time daemon player, he liked the flamer spam before and was quite hard to beat. Played him when I first started playing and I was onto a winner until the darn flamers turned up!. He also likes to be difficult during the game to get reactions so I usually go hard against him. Sadly for him he mis read a few of the rules, and did not like it when I pointed out he was wrong and was backed up by a few other players (also going as far as pulling up the FAQ's and Dakka when he was sure he was correct) one rule being FMC's must deploy in jump pack mode he thought they had to spend the first turn in jump pack mode as well, and trying to use armour bane on his hammer of wrath attacks until I pulled up the FAQ. Writing down his gifts so I could hardly read them and using different gifts at least once for his Bloodthrister.

All this lead to a not very pleasaent game, his comment was if I want to play like that fine, my response was I want to play by the rule book. I ended up insta killing his bloodthrister with a daemon prince, nearly wiping out his beasts with horrors in CC and was about to kill his other DP and bloodletters when he said the club was closing (even though another game was ongoing from two guys that had the keys to open/close the club....) and didnt want to carry on after turn 5, I said thanks for the win then. I think at this point it was a draw, (kill points) but the next turn I would have easily took the lead.

Should have guessed the game was going to be like this after I got there first set up my army with army list and he wrote a list while looking at them even though the game and points level was decided a good few days before. Sigh.