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Ive been working over the conundrum of tau in assault and the picture is bleak obviously, then I started to look at it from the angle, with all those sniper rifiles and characters/suit taking advanced targeting for precision shots can we maybe BE safer in assaults? killing out the power weapon sgt for example?

Basically can enough sniper/precision shots do enough specific damage to tooled out assault units to make the brunt of their assaults not hurt so much?

Here is what can use precision shots (advanced targeting)

Commanders (give em plasma guns? on a 5+ precision shot so you can peel out sgts, special weapons, heavy weapons, power weapons, etc

Crisis suits
Stealth Suits
Riptides
Broadsides (id still take interceptor with them though i think....)

What true sniper options do we have?

Kroot with snipers
Sniper teams

If you have enough of it, will it reduce the damage some assault units can do to you? can you kill hqs reliably hiding in units? and if so which? I am going to start looking....

Not at all effective. The chances of success are too low, and you're better off spending your points on more firepower and killing the entire unit instead of trying to snipe out a specific model.

Also, it's nearly worthless as an assault defense. Since Tau are so horrible in assault you don't need the power weapon sergeant alive to win combat, you can just throw in a basic tactical squad and (if you survive combined overwatch) slaughter the target. Meanwhile true death star units will have every model armed just as effectively (for example, TH/SS terminators) so a precision shot is no better than any other shot.

That cant even possibly be true in all cases. Their are some units, that one/two models is pivotal to its success.

If you have 12 kroot snipers I can get 2 rending precise shots on average. How is that not effective? it can kill terminators!

Im not talking about full on killy squads as the goal with them is to kill them all with focus fire, but if you kill all of them and behind them is a tactical squad that you could snipe out the power weapon then you could blunt their damage.

edit - oh and if you blunt their edge can farsite, or a vespid unit go at them without dying? even a kroot squad full of hounds, thats alot of attacks before the marines can hit back!

I really dont get your advice peregrine.
Seems a bit backwards to me.

Alot of units have access to characters or upgrades that really boost the units strength, not just in assault.

Longshots are rapid fire with a ton of range.
Throw in an ethereal for storm and you get an extra shot within 24" ontop of that.

Granted kroot are nice at this, but its just seems sniper drones are far better for toughness, volume of fire and better stats in general.


Against another tau army, landing precision shots on a fireblade means you stop the volley fire rule.
Thus reducing the fire power from said unit.

Against nob bikers, killing off the painboy means no more FNP for the unit, meaning shooting them becomes more effective.

I really do think this will help to no end for tau.
Even if its picking out the plasma guns to stop them toasting suits, or the melta guns to remove ID threat.

If a melta unit land near a hammer head, simply pick out the threats from the unit.
I love the idea of it and for me, it really does enforce the idea of using sniper drone teams.

The thing about tau is, if pretty much -anything- get's up close to you, you are screwed, because tau will lose to pretty much anything in an assault. So sure, you took out the power fist, but even the normal marines are all that's needed to beat the crap out of tau in close combat.

Theorius wrote:
That cant even possibly be true in all cases. Their are some units, that one/two models is pivotal to its success.

Yes, sniping the melta gunner out of a tactical squad is still a good thing, but you're talking about assault units. Against Tau there is no such thing as a single model being pivotal because even basic tactical marines can crush Tau in assault.

If you have 12 kroot snipers I can get 2 rending precise shots on average. How is that not effective?

Because you still have to wound. Your 12 snipers get 2 precise hits, but only 1 wound on average with only a 33% chance of it being an AP 2 wound that doesn't just bounce off armor.

but if you kill all of them and behind them is a tactical squad that you could snipe out the power weapon then you could blunt their damage.

By sniping the sergeant you've made it worse for yourself because now you're more likely to lose combat by a small enough margin that you can pass the leadership test and stay locked in combat during your own shooting phase (therefore protecting the enemy unit). Tau don't want to survive combat, we want to either avoid it entirely or die in a single round.

Why do people only see this as useful in combat?
If anything, it makes the shooting better for your own army and reduces damage from stronger weapons.

Tau will die in assault, but if you take a chappy out of a jump unit, it reduces the ability of said unit and you have a better chance of staying about for another turn.

I jut see it more for picking out a unit multiplier, rather than a killy combat model.

 Jackal wrote:
Alot of units have access to characters or upgrades that really boost the units strength, not just in assault.

Yes, but the OP was proposing this as a solution to the Tau weakness in assault.

Peregrine - Maybe you should read the OP?
He states heavy and special weapons.

They dont seem much like CC things to me

 Jackal wrote:
Tau will die in assault, but if you take a chappy out of a jump unit, it reduces the ability of said unit and you have a better chance of staying about for another turn.

Again, this is a BAD thing. Tau rarely want to survive in combat, you want to die as efficiently as possible so that you avoid any chance of being locked in combat and protecting the enemy unit from your own shooting. If you can't stop a unit from getting into combat at all you want it to hit something expendable, and hit it as hard as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
Peregrine - Maybe you should read the OP?
He states heavy and special weapons.

They dont seem much like CC things to me

I read it. It makes a token mention of shooting weapons, but clearly focuses on assault:

Ive been working over the conundrum of tau in assault and the picture is bleak obviously, then I started to look at it from the angle, with all those sniper rifiles and characters/suit taking advanced targeting for precision shots can we maybe BE safer in assaults? killing out the power weapon sgt for example?

If you have enough of it, will it reduce the damage some assault units can do to you?

True, but with tau tarpitting a unit for a turn is not allways bad.
Gives you another turn to move units about to remove the threat.
After being assaulted by tac squad, you wont really have much of a unit left anyway.
But your still holding that killpoint from the enemy. (which in later turns could be a game changer)


Yes, but just because its a small mention does not mean it does not exist in the text.
Space pups are a nice example here.

JoTWW is a real killer against tau (riptides mainly)
If you remove the priest from his unit, you can save 180+ points of damage.

While i see what the OP was getting at, i just feel its far more effective at removing ranged threats.

 Jackal wrote:
True, but with tau tarpitting a unit for a turn is not allways bad.

The problem is that you're unlikely to survive two rounds of combat. If you survive the first one (almost always by losing combat but getting "lucky" on the morale test) you're almost certainly going to die after the second one when your few survivors are cut down by overwhelming numbers. And when this happens all you've accomplished is protecting the enemy unit from your own shooting phase, they're now free to act in their own turn.

Well to be fair, you "can" toss crisis suits into combat with ok results so long as there arnt any power swords + in it to make them sad pandas. (but you shouldn't be doing this anyway unless you have a VRT)

but wouldn't the better way to deal with assault is just to kill them?.

well snipers could potentially help you do that by reducing the enemy LD, by killing generally what is the highest LD model per squad, and forcing pinning tests (which can help in rare occasions) but otherwise its not like the other non precision/rending shots are doing nothing.

Peregine good point on the rending i was channeling an old edition when rending triggered on hit and not wound!

on to the rest!!!!!

The point is about attrition and nothing else.

I dont care if a space marine with a spoon is better at everything than a tau but if I wittle him down to two marines and he assaults 10 kroot they are NOT going to win....

So with sniper fire what kind of damage can we do to units so we win the attrition war at range and when assaulty units finally reach us for melee.



Most armies plan to have the special troops be the last dude to go down, we can take him down FIRST more reliably than most others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
I really dont get your advice peregrine.
Seems a bit backwards to me.

Alot of units have access to characters or upgrades that really boost the units strength, not just in assault.

Longshots are rapid fire with a ton of range.
Throw in an ethereal for storm and you get an extra shot within 24" ontop of that.

Granted kroot are nice at this, but its just seems sniper drones are far better for toughness, volume of fire and better stats in general.


Against another tau army, landing precision shots on a fireblade means you stop the volley fire rule.
Thus reducing the fire power from said unit.

Against nob bikers, killing off the painboy means no more FNP for the unit, meaning shooting them becomes more effective.

I really do think this will help to no end for tau.
Even if its picking out the plasma guns to stop them toasting suits, or the melta guns to remove ID threat.

If a melta unit land near a hammer head, simply pick out the threats from the unit.
I love the idea of it and for me, it really does enforce the idea of using sniper drone teams.

Jackal good point on the extra shot, I forgot the sniper drones were pulse! this makes them very good teq killers!

Theorius wrote:
I dont care if a space marine with a spoon is better at everything than a tau but if I wittle him down to two marines and he assaults 10 kroot they are NOT going to win....

Actually they will.

Two tactical marines = 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Surviving nine Kroot swing back = 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.5 unsaved wounds.

So the marines win combat on average, and if you don't have a shaper your morale test is at LD 6 which means a fairly good chance of breaking and getting swept off the table. And that's just basic tactical marines, if you're talking about assault marines or any other "better than tacticals" unit you're going to lose even more.

Most armies plan to have the special troops be the last dude to go down, we can take him down FIRST more reliably than most others.

Most armies plan that against non-Tau armies. Against Tau it doesn't matter because even the basic models can wipe Tau off the table in assault if they survive to get there. Instead of screwing around trying to kill the sergeant just bring more guns and kill the entire squad.

 Peregrine wrote:

Theorius wrote:
I dont care if a space marine with a spoon is better at everything than a tau but if I wittle him down to two marines and he assaults 10 kroot they are NOT going to win....

Actually they will.

Two tactical marines = 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Surviving nine Kroot swing back = 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.5 unsaved wounds.

So the marines win combat on average, and if you don't have a shaper your morale test is at LD 6 which means a fairly good chance of breaking and getting swept off the table. And that's just basic tactical marines, if you're talking about assault marines or any other "better than tacticals" unit you're going to lose even more.[

LOL! good break down, but your assuming they get the charge, and not taking into account overwatch, support overwatch...

additionally your example is exactly what I am trying to break it down to as I can look at optimal kroot buildouts so that I take enough hounds who have 2 atks, int 5 to keep that balance even (or as even as I can)

I can also account for the ethereal ld 10, and is he anticipating a charge so he popped off stubborn? can that ethreal be the melee dude to make it even better?

I think I will make a list of units that are...kill them all on sight!!! and ones to wittle down to X.

This seems like the tau way...what is the most efficient way to spend my shots, and even prepare for assault in the end as assault forces will likely get something to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Theorius wrote:
I dont care if a space marine with a spoon is better at everything than a tau but if I wittle him down to two marines and he assaults 10 kroot they are NOT going to winplan to have the special troops be the last dude to go down, we can take him down FIRST more reliably than most others.

Most armies plan that against non-Tau armies. Against Tau it doesn't matter because even the basic models can wipe Tau off the table in assault if they survive to get there. Instead of screwing around trying to kill the sergeant just bring more guns and kill the entire squad.

I also agree with this in regard to melee weapons, but the meltas, plasmas, force multipliers, they would be sad to lose those!!!

Theorius wrote:
LOL! good break down, but your assuming they get the charge, and not taking into account overwatch, support overwatch...

Well yes, support overwatch is nice, but now you're talking about killing the entire unit and avoiding assault, not 10 Kroot winning in assault against two marines.

I can also account for the ethereal ld 10, and is he anticipating a charge so he popped off stubborn?

Why are you giving up the +1 shot bonus in exchange for stubborn against two tactical marines? Just give out the extra shots and kill the last two marines in your own shooting phase.

can that ethreal be the melee dude to make it even better?

Sure, but now you're no longer talking about 10 Kroot vs. 2 marines, you're comparing 10+ Kroot and a special character to those marines and not surprisingly finding out that 170+ points of models can beat 35 points of models.

I also agree with this in regard to melee weapons, but the meltas, plasmas, force multipliers, they would be sad to lose those!!!

Yes, but you were talking about precision shots as a way of solving our assault problems.

 Peregrine wrote:

Theorius wrote:
LOL! good break down, but your assuming they get the charge, and not taking into account overwatch, support overwatch...

Well yes, support overwatch is nice, but now you're talking about killing the entire unit and avoiding assault, not 10 Kroot winning in assault against two marines.

I can also account for the ethereal ld 10, and is he anticipating a charge so he popped off stubborn?

Why are you giving up the +1 shot bonus in exchange for stubborn against two tactical marines? Just give out the extra shots and kill the last two marines in your own shooting phase.

can that ethreal be the melee dude to make it even better?

Sure, but now you're no longer talking about 10 Kroot vs. 2 marines, you're comparing 10+ Kroot and a special character to those marines and not surprisingly finding out that 170+ points of models can beat 35 points of models.

I also agree with this in regard to melee weapons, but the meltas, plasmas, force multipliers, they would be sad to lose those!!!

Yes, but you were talking about precision shots as a way of solving our assault problems.

Actually Pergrine I was saying you are 100% right about the 2 marines in assault (the scenario could even be seen that after overwatch 2 marines survive and they still win!!) so I was now looking at items to "bolster" them so they can survive.

Depending on the army you are facing you can prioritize what to kill with your sniper/precision shots be it assault items or specialized ranged shots.

Repulsor Drones are pretty awesome.

They stopped two charges and force the enemy to be out in the open for no good return. pretty cool.

Advanced Targetting is pretty cool. I just caught on to HOW cool when you have it on Burst Cannons. Oofta!

Look out sir is the problem, but with enough shots, you could take out the Power Lance and/or some other beef in the unit. some units just can't be saved though. kroot bing charged by Assault Marines ends badly every time. So the question is do you pay for the upgrade if it DOESN'T man saving your unit?

Tough one.

 Jancoran wrote:
Repulsor Drones are pretty awesome.

You mean mediocre. It only applies to one unit, and only if they charge the Pathfinders. If the enemy unit charges something else, or decides not to attempt a risky charge, there is no penalty.

Advanced Targetting is pretty cool. I just caught on to HOW cool when you have it on Burst Cannons. Oofta!

Sorry, but it sucks on BCs. You have the same percentage chance of killing specific MEQ model as a advanced-targeting fusion gun (which also gives you instant death) and much less chance than an advanced-targeting plasma gun. If you're going to spend upgrade slots on trying for precision shots then the BC is only spared the "worst option" title because flamers can't get precision shots at all.

Advanced targeting systems are not great but they are not horrible either. If you have 3 extra points why not take it? When you have ap1/2 weapons and ignore cover being able to pick out a target pretty good. Take out that heavy weapon and all of a sudden that unit doesn't seem nearly as dangerous.

On kroot I am not as sure I like it. You have no guarantee that your precise shot will have rending and being able to pick out your target means a lot less when they are getting an armor save.

Kroot are there for position and syncing. Their damage output is just a bonus. But 20 Sniper Rifles is pretty fun.

Of the ways i have heard of assault "baiting" is when you use darkstalker in a pathfinder team with a repulsor drone.

First overwatch, then 6" consolidate and then the reduction from the drone, and if i am not mistaken the same character also reduce Toughness.

Otherwise you can suit-up a crisis with a retro vector thrusters and gain hit`n run.

These are alternative methods of dealing with assault, but i do wonder tho, will the assault fail if they fail their pinning test? or do they not take the test at all during assault?

Dracoknight wrote:
Of the ways i have heard of assault "baiting" is when you use darkstalker in a pathfinder team with a repulsor drone.

First over watch, then 6" consolidate and then the reduction from the drone, and if i am not mistaken the same character also reduce Toughness.

Otherwise you can suit-up a crisis with a retro vector thrusters and gain hit`n run.

These are alternative methods of dealing with assault, but i do wonder tho, will the assault fail if they fail their pinning test? or do they not take the test at all during assault?

Another cool one i heard of with dark strider was to sit right behind another unit that is spaced at least 1" apart so that you can move in between them, then when they charge, support fire together, then consolidate in front of your front models, that way its impossible for the chargers to get into base contact.

though that is OT,

only problem with ATS is that it takes up a valuable slot.

if it wasn't for that. think its worth it getting it on a character? a 1/3 chance of placing your shots on things you need dead and 1/6 chance, if it is your warlord, to have those shots be un LOS able.

I am almost convinced Tau have some good assault shenanigans.......

Im going to look into including the follwing in my army

Farsight
The melee ethereal
Kroots with snipers / hounds (hounds for 2 atks at init 5)
Crisis suits with plasma rifiles advanced targeting and vector thrusters
someone with the item that gives furious charge, counter charge, tank hunter ect, forget what it is called
vespids (hit and run int 6)


Vespids can hang for one round of assault with init 6 and hit and run. Put a commander in with them with vector thrusters, but is hit and run based on the best init, the worst? or the majority? have to look that up.....


Im gonna do some math hammer on vespids vs assualt marines and genestealers, see if it would be better to shoot, suffer charge with overwatch, one round of combat then hit and run, or if it is better to charge then do two rounds of combat then hit and run.


edit - also, which allies would be fluffy that they might have been assimiliated by the tau? imperial guard or grey knights? they can be fluffied up like they were made part of the tau. I personally wont take allies for advantage unless they fit thematically, like orcs would never work as orks would not join the empire, but humans will!!!

Tau don't do well in assault. No matter how many points you try to invest..

I also wouldnt build around precision shots, too luck dependent. They are nice if you get them, but don't make it a backbone of your list.

Its not about doing well in assault.....

The point is where we fail is when assault armies assault us, and I want to have a counter for that.

I do not follow the paradigm of the internets says this is good and this isnt, strategy and tactics matter more and we have the tools to do some things people try and say are to hard, or not efficient and I think those people are wrong....

What i dont agree with is taking tons of guns and hoping you shoot them all before they get to you, I want 1-2 units that I can realistically use to take on alpha strike assault forces. ((I also do not think it is fun for my oppoents who want to assault if I deny them ever getting to roll some dice, I want to meet their challenge so people want to play me))

Yeah, but you will be pouring points into something that wont really work. If you want to have counter assault, take allies. You've got plenty of choices. Orks/Daemons/SM.

Having precision shot is nice, but there is a limit to how many points you would want to dedicate to it. look at the ROI for the upgrade and assume you only get one round of them. If you can get as many, if not more points back for the upgraded units then the non-upgraded, then they are work taking.

Yes, there are allies you can take - and if you are looking for anti-assault, I would go Eldar (that is what I am looking at). The are Battle Brothers, bring wonderful Psychic powers to the field and their melee units are pretty ossim

You know, the OP mentioned something in passing that got me thinking... every time I look at Stealthsuits 1 support system I always draw a blank. ATS could be a fairly decent option for a Stealthsuit, over CDS which is very circumstantial...

With the stealthsuits and ATS, you could allocate wounds onto an enemy unit in an advantageous manner so as to make an assault unit no longer within threat range of a different squad (for example, eliminating Orks closest to a fire warrior gunline, instead of closest to the stealthsuits)

HRR Broadsides (especially Shas'vre's) would make good use of an ATS as well, being able to pile on ID's onto space marine sergeants or characters 33% of the time. Aside from those two units, I don't see ATS being useful.

On the note of countering assaults, though, I agree with Amaraxis, Eldar would make superb allies and their mobility can sync quite well with Tau mobility.