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This is not a thread on debating the RAW or RAI of the rule in question, but looking for anyone that has gotten a ruling in favor or against in tournament play. How did you present it and how was it accepted or rejected?

What about Heldrakes and upper levels?

 Happyjew wrote:
What about Heldrakes and upper levels?

The conflict arises in that the Baleflamer cannot place the template in upper levels of a ruin as it is not one of the eligible unit types that has permission to do so.

I figured that was what you were talking about, just wanted to verify.

From Adepticon:

Template weapons with the Torrent special rule,
besides not having to be placed touching the firing
model’s base, must still abide by all other targeting
restrictions for Template weapons. [pg. 43, W40KRB]

It appears that means they till cannot target higher levels.

Thank HJ, that is a pretty solid ruling to use as backup.

 Happyjew wrote:
I figured that was what you were talking about, just wanted to verify.

From Adepticon:

Template weapons with the Torrent special rule,
besides not having to be placed touching the firing
model’s base, must still abide by all other targeting
restrictions for Template weapons. [pg. 43, W40KRB]

It appears that means they till cannot target higher levels.

Huh? I don't quite follow...

I thought templates couldn't target multiple models on multiple floors... that it could only target on floor at a time.

The other restriction that comes to mind is barrage templates only able to target the top floor...

I'm an aspiring Chaos general... pweese help me out. o.O

 whembly wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I figured that was what you were talking about, just wanted to verify.

From Adepticon:

Template weapons with the Torrent special rule,
besides not having to be placed touching the firing
model’s base, must still abide by all other targeting
restrictions for Template weapons. [pg. 43, W40KRB]

It appears that means they till cannot target higher levels.

Huh? I don't quite follow...

I thought templates couldn't target multiple models on multiple floors... that it could only target on floor at a time.

The other restriction that comes to mind is barrage templates only able to target the top floor...

I'm an aspiring Chaos general... pweese help me out. o.O

Under the template rules, there are only certain units that can target the upper floors of a set of ruins. Jump infantry for example is one of the units. However, flyers are not in this list of units able to target upper levels of ruins. They can target upper levels if they switch to hover mode as they become like a skimmer (one of the allowed units), but when zooming they can only target the ground floor and I think one more level up.

@whembly:
You might want to review pg 94 and pg 101 for template weapons against buildings and ruins.

@Happyjew:
Having reviewed pg 101, I'm not sure the Adepticon ruling means what you said it does.

I find it odd that the Heldrake can only target the lowest two levels while Zooming, but can target any level while Hovering.

I know it's not what the OP is after, but FWIW we have house ruled it in my group so that a Zooming flyer is treated as being "on" the top level of a ruin when it fires - meaning that Template weapons can only hit models on the two highest floors of a ruin. It made more sense to us.

Haven't played any tournament games with my Drake yet, so haven't seen any tournament rulings on it yet.

I thought the template rules suggesting which level you can target is based on units fiering from within a ruin?


[Edit] I remember a thread on this before and thinking it was just a big black hole in the rules

[Edit2] One of my friends group plays it as it can not target the lower levels, One of my other friends groups plays it as it can not Target anything above level 2. Big mess

The BRB says when targeting a unit IN a ruin, the firer can only target models on its floor +/- 1. (There are exceptions given for skimmers/jetpacks). The question is, what level does a flyer count as being on. The top would make the most sense, but there are no rules to that affect, so I would imagine they count as being on he ground floor like everyone else.

For what it's worth, ill play with them counting as on top.

CountCyrus wrote:
The BRB says when targeting a unit IN a ruin, the firer can only target models on its floor +/- 1. (There are exceptions given for skimmers/jetpacks). The question is, what level does a flyer count as being on. The top would make the most sense, but there are no rules to that affect, so I would imagine they count as being on he ground floor like everyone else.

For what it's worth, ill play with them counting as on top.

Well the flyer is on the ground floor so it could only hit that and the floor just above that.

Yet when it becomes a fast skimmer it is able to target any level. So it seems odd that when "flying high" it cannot hit the top level but ony the ground +1, when it drops down it.can target anywhere.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet when it becomes a fast skimmer it is able to target any level. So it seems odd that when "flying high" it cannot hit the top level but ony the ground +1, when it drops down it.can target anywhere.

Like I said. I'm going to keep playing it as top level, therefore only able to hit top level -1 (while zooming). Would make sense that when moving so quickly they would have to increase in elevation to avoid hitting obstacles.


Stupid house rules making so much sense.

In our local games we play that it can target any level it wants as long as it follows the 12" rule for placing the template. We decided that if you can move the template anywhere you want as long as it is within 12" of the base then moving up or down was fine too. It does mean you have to be a little closer to the building to hit the top level, but we thought it was a good compromise.

ChaosSmaug wrote:
In our local games we play that it can target any level it wants as long as it follows the 12" rule for placing the template. We decided that if you can move the template anywhere you want as long as it is within 12" of the base then moving up or down was fine too. It does mean you have to be a little closer to the building to hit the top level, but we thought it was a good compromise.

This sounds like the best approach.

CountCyrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet when it becomes a fast skimmer it is able to target any level. So it seems odd that when "flying high" it cannot hit the top level but ony the ground +1, when it drops down it.can target anywhere.

Like I said. I'm going to keep playing it as top level, therefore only able to hit top level -1 (while zooming). Would make sense that when moving so quickly they would have to increase in elevation to avoid hitting obstacles.


Stupid house rules making so much sense.

Common sense doesn't matter in 40k, just like a FMC can get cover from a barricade or a rock while flying, it doesn't make sense at all but that's how it is.

At my FLGS we play it any level as well, just like a fast skimmer.

clively wrote:
@whembly:
You might want to review pg 94 and pg 101 for template weapons against buildings and ruins.

@Happyjew:
Having reviewed pg 101, I'm not sure the Adepticon ruling means what you said it does.

Only certain unit types can hit higher (or lower) floors then normal. Flyers are not included in that list. Torrent weapons are not placed in base contact, but within a certain distance. They then follow all the rules for normal template weapons. I read Adepticons ruling as while you can still place the template within the normal allowable range for torrent weapons, you still must abide by the restriction of only being able to target your level +/- 1.

@happyjew. The list you are talking about isn't a restriction but rather permission for certain types to shoot at all levels, and yes the flier isn't in that list. However, any unit can shoot at its level +/- 1.

I guess the real question is: what level is a zooming flyer on?

Physically it's not on the ground level as the stand is 6" high. If we keep with the spirit of TLOS, then we should consider it to be on the 3rd level - 3" per floor plus a little bit for the body. This corresponds with how a flier gets cover, meaning you don't consider it to be on the ground and seems to lead to the least amount of confusion.

Due to the template rules on pg 101 this would mean we could hit levels 2 through 4. Which would be the same, or one level higher or lower which applies to all models.



A different, but very similar situation would be an infantry unit on a 6" tall hill that happens to be immediately next to a ruin. Would they only be allowed to target the first and second floors or would they target 2 through 4? I think the latter decision would be more appropriate.

HIWPI: All zooming flyers are on level 3 and can use template weapons against one of the 2-4 levels. Whereas Hovering flyers have specific permission to hit any single level of the building.

clively wrote:
@happyjew. The list you are talking about isn't a restriction but rather permission for certain types to shoot at all levels, and yes the flier isn't in that list. However, any unit can shoot at its level +/- 1.

I guess the real question is: what level is a zooming flyer on?

Physically it's not on the ground level as the stand is 6" high. If we keep with the spirit of TLOS, then we should consider it to be on the 3rd level - 3" per floor plus a little bit for the body. This corresponds with how a flier gets cover, meaning you don't consider it to be on the ground and seems to lead to the least amount of confusion.

Due to the template rules on pg 101 this would mean we could hit levels 2 through 4. Which would be the same, or one level higher or lower which applies to all models.



A different, but very similar situation would be an infantry unit on a 6" tall hill that happens to be immediately next to a ruin. Would they only be allowed to target the first and second floors or would they target 2 through 4? I think the latter decision would be more appropriate.

HIWPI: All zooming flyers are on level 3 and can use template weapons against one of the 2-4 levels. Whereas Hovering flyers have specific permission to hit any single level of the building.

Thats a good point. Do we say infantry outside a ruin can not target the upper floors normally because of the * target your level +/- 1. * ? No becuase they are not in the ruin and are not bound by that restriction, we then revert to TLOS, which is what a Helldrake outside a ruin would count as also?

Edit; So don't land your Helldrake within a ruin? I suppose when target your level +/- 1 comes into play (Are you in the ruin when your in the area terrain below it? are you in the ruin when on a ''floor''?) is a seperate question

clively wrote:
I guess the real question is: what level is a zooming flyer on?

Which level is the base sitting on? That's the method you use to determine which level any other unit type is on, so I don't see why flyers would be any different.

 Peregrine wrote:

clively wrote:
I guess the real question is: what level is a zooming flyer on?

Which level is the base sitting on? That's the method you use to determine which level any other unit type is on, so I don't see why flyers would be any different.

Maybe because flyers have a rule about when you use their base. Firing torrent/flamer isn't on that list.

-Matt

Unless the flyer is actually IN/ON the ruins there's only one level it could be on, regardless of the fact that the hull is above it.

I didn't know jets and planes are on the ground. Oh wait, they aren't... They are in the air. The base is there solely because of this thing called physics. If GW could make a flyer that didn't need a base to stay in the air then they would and half of you would have your brains explode because you just can't comprehend that GW sucks at rules. Stop being babies and pretending that a jet is the exact same as a tank. It's not. It's in the air, it's flying. Deal with it. The base is meaningless and only exists to represent GWs limitations of making a model that can really fly. If a flyer is on the ground level then it has landed or crashed. Read the rules.


NOW THAT THE DISCUSSION OF WHETHER OR NOT FLYERS ARE LAND BASED VEHICLES IS OVER, LET US MOVE ON.

A flyer is ~6 inches in the air. The real argument is if that is an abstract distance or its actual flying height. If you argue abstract then a flyer can flame the top level and the level below it. If you argue that it's the real height then it gets levels 2-4.

Not really, if you argue the abstract you treat it as a model on the ground floor, regardless of how it is actually modelled.

In the rules/game models aren't flying in the air, they are on the table, touching the table. That is why you can't move on top of it's base or move the flyer on top of other units or move within 1" if you are an enemy.

Also, out in the open ground there are no levels beyond the ground, unless you imagine virtual levels?

For the rules flyers ARE land-based vehicles, but with a load of special rules to make them work.

Interesting topic

Interesting indeed...
I was not aware of the situation..
If you agree on the level it can hit with your opponent beforehand, you can possibly place objectives and troops accordingly and never fear the beast!!

This is an interesting question.

To throw another wrench into the mix, how do you handle a Chaos Daemon Prince with the Brand of Skalathrax, since he is not on a huge flying stand but on the ground level?

Personally, I think in a strict RAW reading, you have to consider flyers as "on the level" of wherever their base is, so they would not be able to hit any levels 3 or higher. Since the template for the Heldrake is measured from the base of the model, that's what you have to go with. Same thing for the Prince with a Brand.

Clearly that doesn't make a lot of sense, so in any kind of non-tournament scenario, I would just play it as if the Flyer were on the top level and go from there.

spartiatis wrote:
Interesting indeed...
I was not aware of the situation..
If you agree on the level it can hit with your opponent beforehand, you can possibly place objectives and troops accordingly and never fear the beast!!

Except when it drops into hover mode in turn 5 and kills them all. =(

It seems that some people want the best of both worlds, being able to flame on any level due to being in the air, but then also being able to flame the ground level in ruins.

I see how the rules would work in the case of a zooming flyer only being able to hit the lower levels in terms of a strafing run while going into hover mode would allow filling a specific level with burning demonic fuel.

As it stands the rules apparently support any level in hover mode and only ground +1 in zooming mode.