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Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.

What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?

Preferred loadout is with Celestine; which isn't possible in your situation.

She boosts ALL their saves by a bit.

Not sure how good they are on their own.

I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

 Billagio wrote:
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.

w1zard wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.

Thats what I kind of was figuring too, but the stormlord didnt really catch my attention. Only 20 shots, half of which will hit doesnt seem that great since we have lots of anti-infantry options. Is the Shadowsword/baneblade worth taking in your standard gunline list?

Going with a super heavy kind of requires you to build your list around it since it's such a large portion of your list.

Consider if you're playing with friends or a more competitive area. Your friends will probably not be thrilled.

If it's a competitive list you need to probably realize that if your opponent can manage something like, what, 12 wounds to it it'll be hitting on 5s? I've seen Baneblades deleted or at least severely crippled in the first round of shooting many times in this edition.

I did recently play a super heavy list with a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword, and a Banehammer with everything else designed for support. I called it the friendship ender.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Going with a super heavy kind of requires you to build your list around it since it's such a large portion of your list.

Consider if you're playing with friends or a more competitive area. Your friends will probably not be thrilled.

If it's a competitive list you need to probably realize that if your opponent can manage something like, what, 12 wounds to it it'll be hitting on 5s? I've seen Baneblades deleted or at least severely crippled in the first round of shooting many times in this edition.

I did recently play a super heavy list with a Macharius Vulcan, Shadowsword, and a Banehammer with everything else designed for support. I called it the friendship ender.

I ran a list with a valhallan shadowsword in a sup com detachment. Valhallan doctrine makes them so much more tough, it takes 20 wounds before they degrade. It was amazing.

 Billagio wrote:
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

You better try them yourself (by using proxy model for example) because different people have different preferences, game styles and play in different communities. For example, a lot of people at this forum like Shadowswords but I see them as almost useless (though I have one and like its appearance). I personally think Hellhammer is the best, but again, many people strongly disagree. At least everyone agrees that Baneblade is good -- it is now a real workhorse, though it is not considered "the best of the best".

Or just magnetize your kit and do an "Octoblade". It will let you experiment and always have a Superheavy you need.

Hey guys!

Quick little review of something we've passed over: The Malcador/Minotaur combo. I've been running this lately - I can fit a battalion of Imperial Guard, 3 Minotaurs, and a Spearhead with 3 Malcadors (including one Annihilator) in it with 70 points of dead space still to spend (usually, in my case, a techpriest and an astrotelepath).

The main thing is it's similar to my superheavy list, in that it overloads the enemy with T8 3+ wounds... but holy hell is it overloading. 56 wounds from the Malcadors, 66 wounds from the Minotaurs = 122 T8 3+ wounds, plus you still get 30 guardsmen with orders.

The screens are fairly weak, but I've considered it less important since the FAQ, and the firepower of the Malcadors doesn't measure up to the Russ. But I've played against Russ spam lists, and the sheer brutalizing firepower of the Minotaurs combined with the great durability of the Malcadors (and of course the Minos themselves) has given me the turns I need of hammering away with the big guns on the Minotaurs.

Worst part is I'm running Tallarn because I like being able to move - and one of the advantages of the Malcador over the Russ is the ability to move 10" and still fire to full effectiveness, if it's Tallarn. A Tallarn Tank Commander can achieve a similar effect with the order, admittedly.

Lastly, the third advantage of the Malcador is it's true heavy tank firepower. Now, don't get me wrong - the main gun is atrociously bad compared to the Russ, being literally the same gun with 50% fewer shots. But the sponson and hull guns - whoopee! My Annihilator has a twin lascannon and a demolisher cannon, a pintle stubber, and sponson stubbers, though they could be magnitized for lascannons. For about twice the price of a Leman Russ, it has 9 anti infantry shots, d3/d6 dual-purpose shots, and two lascannon shots. It's actually fairly impressive.

More impressive in the secondary armament field however are the two other basic malcadors - 3 lascannons + battlecannon on 1, and 3 autocannons + battlecannon on the other. The battle cannon may only fire half as many times than the Russ, but the secondary armament damn near matches the firepower of a second Leman Russ by itself, while being more durable and faster for less than the points of two Leman Russes.

Losses are, of course, orders (which is huge), Grinding Advance (so if you want to move you really should be Tallarn), and a few extra wounds compared to a second Russ.

In my opinion, however, the Malcador is very underrated this edition. I used to think it was crap, and got even worse after the Russ came out in the dex with the double-fire grinding advance, but after playing several russ lists with my Malcadors and Minotaurs it's clear to me that the Malcador has a place - even if that place is just absorbing bullets for something more valuable (like a Minotaur) because of its sheer rugged endurance with its 18 wounds.

Looking at guard. I have read this thread since the FAQ drop from late march onward.

I was looking at doing Tallarn Mech Infantry theme. Run around in Chimeras or Taurox with Lehmens. I know most people play gunline cadia, but I like the idea of doing the Blitzkrieg tactics. Tallarn seems best for that with their special orders/traits. Is this viable? Has anyone tried it? What units would be best for this.

Was looking at 2 tanks cmds
4 blobs infantry
3 blobs of mortars
Chimeras or Tauros
Some elite spec weapons or veternas kitted out to ride around
Leman Russ
Probably a vulture with punsher cannon
3x 3 scout Sentinels with the heavy weapons Autocannon and flamers most likely to take advantage of Tallarn Swift as the wind.

Thoughts?

So what's the deal with the lost relic of cadia? Has that been faq'd at all? I googled it and people are claiming it's not a single use item, which, after reading the actual text it doesn't explicitly say it is a single use item but it just seems way to OP not to be - especially if your opponent happens to be chaos which we're seeing a lot more of these days.

Lost Relic is one of several important items addressed in the Guard FAQ. If you have not read it I would highly recommend doing so.

ah, yep, my bad. Must have glossed over that one. Is it still a useful relic? In my current list I'd have to spend 3CP to get it (already got LOC and Kurov's Aquila)

You have a very high ratio of Orders to infantry, Laurels and no Cadian vehicles. I would probably pass except against Chaos. Rerolling 1s on those Lascannons even if your Laurels rolls fail (assuming you go reroll hits first) might be worth it depending on matchups.

 necron99 wrote:
ah, yep, my bad. Must have glossed over that one. Is it still a useful relic? In my current list I'd have to spend 3CP to get it (already got LOC and Kurov's Aquila)

It is auto take vs Chaos. Think about it, for TWO extra CP, you are potentially getting dozens of rerolls for a turn.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Lastly, the third advantage of the Malcador is it's true heavy tank firepower. Now, don't get me wrong - the main gun is atrociously bad compared to the Russ, being literally the same gun with 50% fewer shots. But the sponson and hull guns - whoopee! My Annihilator has a twin lascannon and a demolisher cannon, a pintle stubber, and sponson stubbers, though they could be magnitized for lascannons. For about twice the price of a Leman Russ, it has 9 anti infantry shots, d3/d6 dual-purpose shots, and two lascannon shots. It's actually fairly impressive.

It's not impressive, it's utter trash. The twin LC and demolisher cannon are both LRBT turret weapons, so that's roughly equal to firing a single turret weapon twice. The pintle stubber can be taken on either vehicle, so that doesn't count. The two sponson heavy stubbers are worse than the heavy bolter sponsons the LRBT can take, so you're committed to taking lascannons to have any hope of competing. The LRBT can take a single lascannon, so you're left with comparing one lascannon vs. the LRBT's sponson gun options. Is having a lascannon instead of two heavy bolters worth doubling the cost of a model? no. The Malcador pays double the points for a negligible advantage in firepower and a decent improvement in wound count. In any situation where you could have a Malcador a pair of LRBTs will be superior by a large margin.

But I've played against Russ spam lists, and the sheer brutalizing firepower of the Minotaurs combined with the great durability of the Malcadors (and of course the Minos themselves) has given me the turns I need of hammering away with the big guns on the Minotaurs.

Then stop playing against bad players who don't understand target priority? Why would you ever target the Malcadors first? They have a terrible ratio of firepower to durability, targeting pretty much anything else on the table is going to reduce incoming fire faster. Ignore the pathetic Malcadors, kill the Minotuars, and clean up the Malcadors whenever it is convenient. Not that you should be taking Minotaurs anyway. They're a cool model, but Basilisks have much better firepower per point and any durability advantage is marginal when you can hide out of LOS and be entirely immune to attack.

 Dynas wrote:
Looking at guard. I have read this thread since the FAQ drop from late march onward.

I was looking at doing Tallarn Mech Infantry theme. Run around in Chimeras or Taurox with Lehmens. I know most people play gunline cadia, but I like the idea of doing the Blitzkrieg tactics.

I can't speak for Tallarn (in all honesty I have not tried that doctrine yet) but if you are interested in blitzkrieg you might look into the Catachan Doctrine. Re-rolling variable shot weapons on vehicles makes Hellhounds and flamer-equipped Chimeras nasty. Also the +1 strength boost to infantry is nothing to sneeze at. If I know that my infantry are about to get charged, I'll often charge first instead. Str 4 makes a big difference vs MEQ.

Anyone else here think Guard flyers with the exception of the vulture, are massively overpriced?

The Valkyrie has some redeemable qualities, but all of the others are from FW and are either neglected or were pointlessly nerfed in Chapter Approved. The real head scratcher is how the twin Punisher Vulture got through that mess unscathed (not that it actually needed a nerf) when it was the one people were panicking over.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.

What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?

I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.

 MacPhail wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.

What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?

I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.

Lascannons are AP-3.

Slab Shields give you a 2+, with your base 4+.

Brute Shields, if I remember correctly, only give a 5++.

In other words, Slab Shields and Brute Shields are exactly the same against Lascannons, unless you're in cover, in which case Slab Shields do better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Hey all, I was going to take a small allied Guard detachment with my Genecult and I was curious about a bullgryn squad to maybe give my opponent some target choices, plus I want to model them as thinly disguised abberants.

What’s the preferred loadout and delivery method? Mauls and slabshields? 3 with a priest in a chimera, or 5-6 advancing up the board?

I've been running 3 alongside Celestine (magical) and a Priest (pretty solid). Without Celestine's save enhancement, I'd be tempted to throw in a brute shield, because someone always seems to be shooting lascannons at them. Other than that, slab shield and maul all the way. They're fun and nasty and dangerous to ingore. Mine killed a Helbrute without breaking a sweat last week. I have a Chimera sitting around half assembled for them, but I haven't tried it yet. It may solve the problem of crossing the table without Celestine, but the jury's out on that one.

Lascannons are AP-3.

Slab Shields give you a 2+, with your base 4+.

Brute Shields, if I remember correctly, only give a 5++.

In other words, Slab Shields and Brute Shields are exactly the same against Lascannons, unless you're in cover, in which case Slab Shields do better.

Good point on my bad math... even stronger case for slab shield then.

They give a 4++ actually.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
They give a 4++ actually.

Was away from book, so that’s my bad. Still-slab shields seem better.

Almost as good agains lascannons, as good in cover, and way better against anything without or with only minor AP.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
They give a 4++ actually.

Was away from book, so that’s my bad. Still-slab shields seem better.

Almost as good agains lascannons, as good in cover, and way better against anything without or with only minor AP.

If you’re running 5-6 I could see the use of a couple to shrug off the aforementioned lascannon shots coming their way.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
They give a 4++ actually.

Was away from book, so that’s my bad. Still-slab shields seem better.

Almost as good agains lascannons, as good in cover, and way better against anything without or with only minor AP.

Main benefits for the brute shields is CQC and the fact that pyschic barrier and take cover stack with them if I remember right. I think there's a way to make them a 2+ invuln, which for Ogryn using shock mauls is no joke.

w1zard wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.

For shadowsword is it best to equip with 4x lascannon, 5x heavy bolter and the volcano cannon? Are the other 2ndary weapons worth taking? Also, what about camping a Techpriest Enginseer near him, and an Astropath to cast nightshroud to increase surviability?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone tried a cheap inf squad with the grenades stratagem and using the Laurels of Command Relic that allows 2 orders. Use Move, Move, Move and Forwards for the Emperor to get within range. Make them voystran for Firstborn pride.

So you are moving 6+6+2x Advance Die. 2 Cp to get +1 to hit and you are throwing Frag Grendades. That 10d6 shots hitting on 3's. Good for horde clearing.

Thoughts?

 Dynas wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I know this has probably been discussed before, but what is the best baneblade variant? Im guessing Baneblade/Shadowsword still? Are they still worth bringing?

Shadowsword for anti-vehicle, Stormlord for anti-infantry or if you want a transport, Baneblade if you want a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle firepower. Those are the only three variants worth taking, as the rest are kind of lackluster in comparison. I personally think the Shadowsword is the best out of those three because it absolutely reaches out and deletes one thing a turn with its volcano cannon no matter what it is (including enemy LOW) and it is somewhat cheaper than a regular Baneblade due to not having to take an autocannon and demolisher cannon.

For shadowsword is it best to equip with 4x lascannon, 5x heavy bolter and the volcano cannon? Are the other 2ndary weapons worth taking? Also, what about camping a Techpriest Enginseer near him, and an Astropath to cast nightshroud to increase surviability?

Lots of people like to load up their Shadowswords, but I prefer not to. You are basically paying normal price for bs4+ lascannons and slightly below normal price for the bolters and flamers (twin HB and Flamer are slightly cheaper than 2 singles), which you can just put on infantry anyway. Unless I know that I'm likely to face titanic units, I don't find it worth it to dump more points into a bullet magnet. I'm content with a 400 point Volcano cannon.

Thats why you nightshroud it for -1 to hit, and you can use Tech Priest to heal D3 every turn. Tank orders can give reroll 1's. Also can use strike and Shroud order if the Nightshroud fails.

 Dynas wrote:
Thats why you nightshroud it for -1 to hit, and you can use Tech Priest to heal D3 every turn. Tank orders can give reroll 1's. Also can use strike and Shroud order if the Nightshroud fails.

Tank orders don't work on Baneblades.