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It's time for the game everyone is playing!  Fix a useless weapon!

 

Today's entry... the hellgun...

 

OK, it's a lasgun.  But rather than AP5 once per game the entire squad may supercharge their weapons and fire a burst at S6, AP4.

Balance thoughts - makes deep striking suicide storm troopers much more attractive and scary.  Losing the AP5 is not such a disadvantage.  Maybe add 'gets hot'?  But then again making the weapon more effective is one goal.

Any thoughts?

Lets compare and contrast something real quick.

Storm trooper= 10 points bs4 sv4+ and has a hellgun
SOB = 11 points, bs4 sv3+ and carries a bolter

So for one more point you get a better armor save, and a gun that not only is stronger, but can punch through better armor. Do not even get me started on faith!

So, how can we adjust the hellgun to make these two items line up? Heck they are both worth about the same points right?

S5, AP4 hell gun. Yeah the gun is a good bit better, but the Storm trooper does not have as much of a save and is still, hitting and wounding MEQ's on threes, and they still keep their 3+ save. When the marines hose them back they will also be hitting and wounding on threes, but the storm troopers will be saving on 4+. Plus, the marines still own in CC.

You're playing a different game called, let's fix an underpriced unit. Wherein SoB will cost 13 to 15 points and marines 18 to 20.

Oh this is easy. Just do what GW usually does to useless weapons - give 'em Rending

Duh.

BYE

Make the multi-melta an assault weapon, and adjust prices for units accordingly. As it stands, a tac squad can get a multi-melta and a meltagun for the same points. If the heavy flamer is an assault weapon, why not a multi-melta? Though I know flamers don't require much aim. Or give it a rule that it only counts as an assault weapon against vehicles, as their large size makes them easier to hit. Vehicle mounted multi-meltas would therefore remain unaffected.

How about giving the multimelta it's tempate back? The plasma cannon would still have an edge due to range but at least there'd be a point to it.
Actaully the assault MM sounds pretty good.

Any short range anti tank shooty weapon should be made assault by default. Eldar have assault meltas and even an assault heavy melta eqivalent (minus some range), so Marines should too.

For the hellgun, how bout just a straight up assault 2 weapon?

My personal neglected weapon choice would be the Eldar missile launcher. The only thing to actually use this might be a dark reaper exarch, that's it. As a vehicle weapon, it's silly. I was thinking something like...

Eldar Missle Launcher: Heavy 2, blast. Str 4 ap 4, or Heavy 1, Str 8, ap 4.

For the same 10 points you can get a Fire Warrior with WS2 BS3 and a S5 gun. Maybe something as simple as making Hellguns S4?

imo the hellgun should not exist and stormtroopers should be armed with bolters.

Darkchild

good idea

Giving the Hellgun S4 or just plain bolter stats sounds fine to me. So lets move on.

And for today...

The Shotgun!



A beloved real world weapon that was marginal in 3rd edition and useless in 4th. What to do... what to do...

How about S3 flamer template? S2?
Option of S3 2 shorts or S4 AP5 1 shot?

I'd like to avoid special unique rules like the old 2nd edition knock down rules.

S4 AP- Assault2

Darkchild

"S4 AP- Assault2"

i could live with that!

Hellgun: make it S4, AP- or 6

Shotgun: Assault 3 or just put it out of its misery.

Hellgun: S3 AP5 (always)

Problem solved, AP5 is actually useful against a few armies.

Shotgun: Ignores cover saves (as 2nd ed)

Shotgun: Extra dice when you make a shotgun noise.

Yeah, baby!

Double post

Posted By Zzarchov on 03/26/2006 4:27 PM
"Hellgun: S3 AP5 (always)
Problem solved, AP5 is actually useful against a few armies."

But Hellgun is S3 AP5. Maybe you mean that it is fine as it is?

Hellguns also come with a Targeter, which could be useful for other troops to snipe

the front row. (This is why it isnt called Splinter Rifle.)

My suggestion: give Storm Troopers a Storm Bolter, nuff said.

Storm bolters..... Well they are an interesting model, and the hellgun looks cool.... Storm bolters just feels like a cop out. What about multi-laser like stats Str 6, ap - rapid fire. Then you have a model with a real goal, "skimmer killer" Plus it feels right, lasgun = ap nil multi laser ap nill, hell gun, ap nill.

hellgun- s4 ap6, now it's as good as a shoota

shotgun s3 ap- assault 2, re-roll to-wound. Will not hit as hard as a bolter, won't blow up vehicles, will not kill more than two people, but has more 'reliability' for a kill vs s3 than a lasgun now.

howabout...
heavy stubber- make it more common, it's just cool.

Hellgun Range 18" S3 AP5 Assault 2

OR Range 24" S4 AP- Rapid Fire

Shotgun Range 12" S3 AP- Assualt 2
Special: Ignores Cover Saves.

Give a hellgun Bolter stats, Str. 4 and AP 5

Shotgun goes from Str. 3, AP- Assault 2....to....Str. 3, AP 6, Assault 2, 18" Range.

Heavy Stubber should just have AP5 rather than 6. now its a trio of long-barrelled bolters.

CK

I just don't like giving the gun existing weapon stats. I still do not think str 6 ap nil 18 inch assault 1. is that far out of bounds. Just look at the model, the plasma or melta guns have a smaller power pack. In addition point wise it is not to crazy. Think about about the firewarrior. str5 ap5 30 inch range rapid fire.

Hellgun  - Range 30" Str 3 AP5  Rapidfire

 

Shotgun (kinda like Necromunda model with solid slugs OR Buckshot)  - 

Range 24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 1

OR

Range 12' Str 3 Ap - Assault 2  ignores cover 

You pick what you want to shoot, like the missle launcher.

And for Cripes sake give 'em to Armord Fist squads.  Open the door, start blastin, then CHARGE!!!

I think the shotgun stats are fine, but give it reroll misses. Pretty hard to miss with a shotgun.

"but give it reroll misses" or as said earlier, use the flamer template.

Good ideas all...

My current votes would be:

Hellgun
Assault 24" S6, AP nil
A stripped down multi laser

Shot Gun
S2 AP nil Flamer template
A low power shooty gun, maybe with optional Assault 12" S4 shots

Mutli Melta
S8 Assault 24" melta

Next entry...
The mortar!

Why not give the mortar multiple types of ammunition?

A "Frag Shell" With Str 4, AP 6, and hits units partially covered by the template on a 3+, and a "Krak Shell" With Str 6 , AP 4.

Or, a new template for the mortar, with a radius of 2 inches.

lol

Since the discussion has come around to this topic once more, I have an excuse to make my silly post.

Someone should make plasmortars. Maybe not the Imperium, but some sort of viable man-portable indirect fire weapon is needed given all the marines about. (Mortars as they are would work fine if there were save modifiers or if more armies had more light infantry.) Fire as a normal guess weapon but must also roll 2+ per shot to avoid overheating.

Alternatively, maybe allow Mortar Platoons to be chosen as troops, as I can't think of many other armies besides IG that use them. The cheesy suggestion is that, for a certain number of points, mortar crews may exchange their usual frag rounds for monofilament bomblets, i.e. rending, but that would involve either rolling a separate die to rend for each mortar before resolving the salvo.

Combining the two ideas and applying them to the first weapon of the series, maybe have helguns as normal lasguns with the option of shooting at "increased power" - i.e., rending and Gets Hot! Alternatively, AP3 might be interesting...

Vortex Mortar rounds!
release the pie plate and watch the fun ensue!