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Lasgun < Hellgun < Pointy Stick... At least with a pointy stick you could stand a chance of maybe giving someone a nasty scratch... Oh, I forgot to add shotguns into my diagram.... Put them at the bottom with the lasgun.
Conclusion: The only reason you take stormtroopers (IMO) is for the special weapons, you deepstrike in (if allowed) or do whatever you want to get to your opponent, take those glorious special weapon shots, hope whatever you shot was worth it, watch all the men with hellguns die, fail leadership and run back, hopefully with you special weapons troopers and shoot while you run off the board or until that guy with the pointy stick finds you... Welcome to theImperial Guard.
Therefore: Why make a useless weapon better when the only people who carry it are meant to die? What let's make hellguns slightly better, ok... So say now they are better, what are you going to do.... Nothing you still die because you ae not important, your special weapons are the ones that kill stuff (marines, tanks, etc...), so if at the end of all of your training your handed a hellgun +2 you know you will be the first man used as a body shield to protect the guy with the melta or whatever. Same theory as all guardsmen and conscripts, you get X amount of useless guys that you spent hours painting for Y heavy weapons and such.
Conclusion 2: Yeah I'm still going, the gun is designed to be useless for the most part for the above reason.

I just realized something. Why not give a shotgun the stats of a Ripper Gun? a Str 4, AP 6, Assault 2. Ra 12" would do nicely in close quarters, or at least better than the current version.

CK

Honestly, give the shotgun better stats in any way then a bolter is kind of silly. 20mm mini rocket vs. 20mm bore of buckshot? If anything I say eather re-rolls to hit (ease of use) or re-rolls to wound (buckshot by its nature is very likely to hit important tissue). I think re-rolls to wound sounds about right, as the effect can be considered simmilar to they nid living ammunition rule. Being able to assualt combined with better wounding makes them viable, without really needing a points buff.

S4 seems like a simple fix to hellguns, makes them more effective against everything, though bolters are still better. Also stats to put stromtroopers on par with SoB's.

Boltgun is 70mm, not 20mm...

No, it's .75 caliber, which is essentially 20mm.
At least according to Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn novels...

RZ

Ah, I may have gotten things reversed.

I like the idea of giving the shotgun pinning to give it a boost.
As for the hellgun, how about keeping S3 (because it is a lasgun at heart), but represent the ovecharged shot by not only giving it AP5, but also by allowing it to reroll wounds?

Let helguns upgrade to "may count as sniper rifle" for free for elites, and +2 points for troops. Justify it by saying the higher power beam can be focussed very well and thus makes an excellent sniping weapon. The only guys who have it suddenly become worthwhile.

For the ripper, maybe give it the option of being a "one use" item at assault D6 S4 AP6 twin-linked 6" plus the effects of frag grenades. (the pin locking the ripper gun into semi-automatic is removed (fluffy if they're lead by a bone'ead) and the abhumans use the entirety of their ammunition in a single collective burst.)

Posted By CadianEversor on 06/03/2006 7:17 AM

Shotguns re-rolling to wound?  Seems odd.  How about re-roll to hit. 

 

Last time I checked, twin-linked weapons do re-roll hits, not wounds. I like that idea.

How bout you reverse engineer the Hellgun from a Lascannon.

I used this stat line:

Str 10 = Ap 1 Str 9-8 = Ap 2 Str 7-6 = 3 Str 5-4 = 4 Str 3-2 = 5 Str 1 = 6

Lascannon: Str: 9 Ap: 2

Hellgun: Str: 5 Ap: 4

Real Lasgun: Str:3 Ap: 5

You?ll just have to ignore the lasgun and pretend that way back in the dawn of the imperium the guard regiments were supposed to be issued with real laser guns but they lost them all and they have actually been using their standard imperial cooking utensil all this time. The boys back at the Administratum looked at each other and with a silent nod decided never to bring it up?

Usiel -

The current Hellgun is useless. Sure, S3 AP5 has it's uses, against 5+ and 6+ saves, but vs everything else, it's like being shot with a lasgun. Hence, the fix for it decided in the Player's Guard Codex, and multiple times on the GW Dev boards, is to leave it as it is except with S4. That way, there is a difference between a lasgun and a hellgun to a Space Marine, Stormies stay with the Guard's las weapons, and so on.

Posted By Ogiwan 08/10/2006 6:31 PM
The current Hellgun is useless. Sure, S3 AP5 has it's uses, against 5+ and 6+ saves, but vs everything else, it's like being shot with a lasgun. Hence, the fix for it decided in the Player's Guard Codex, and multiple times on the GW Dev boards, is to leave it as it is except with S4. That way, there is a difference between a lasgun and a hellgun to a Space Marine, Stormies stay with the Guard's las weapons, and so on.

What do you think of my earlier suggestion it be S6 Ap4 for one turn of shooting per game, the rest of the time S3 AP5?

How bout the Hellguns are Lasguns that re-roll to wounds and have AP5? They have a high rate of fire in DoW. Besides i dont think that as an infantry weapon they should all be given S6 weapons.

Shotguns could be 18" 2 shots str3 ap6. that'd be death to Orks, Tyranid, and Kroot.

Multi-meltas could be fired like meltas alternatively.

Mortars could be given str4 ap5 if they dont already.

How bout Veteran Squads with a heavy weapon choice of Heavy Stubbers

"How bout Veteran Squads with a heavy weapon choice of Heavy Stubbers"

I always wanted heavy stubbers and HK missiles (1 shot krak missles, like a LAW rocket) to be a special weapon choice. Right now the only useful special weapon in a stand and shoot squad is the plasma gun.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto 08/10/2006 9:20 PM
What do you think of my earlier suggestion it be S6 Ap4 for one turn of shooting per game, the rest of the time S3 AP5?

Not that big a fan. Sure, S6 AP4 makes Space Marines notice that they're getting shot at by powerful stuff.....and then the next turn Stormies are slightly more accurate Guardsmen.

yeah S6 is more powerful than tau, so no lol

What about having Hellguns be Str.4 AP 6,

while the shotgun is Str.4 AP 6 as well, except as an Assault 1 Weapon at 18"?

CK

I think Shotguns with wound reroll, is the right way.

another thing. not that I want Marines to become even more stronger, but how about a special shot for heavy Bolters
18' S5 AP4 Assault 3, minus 1 on the BS

We're trialing a Hellgun that is S4 AP6 Rapid Fire normally, but you can over-charge it to S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot! if you want.

BYE

I love the idea of S4 AP6. It gives the Stormtroopers a little more punch on the field. How often can you overcharge this trial Hellgun? Every turn, or once per game?

CK

Even with Gets Hot, wouldn't the overdrive mode be preferable in all MEQ cases plus Orks, thus making Stromtroopers another suicide unit? If that's true, then wouldn't Veterans *still* make a better sucide unit, for a cheaper cost?