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http://www.spikeybits.com/servlet/the-12148/Leviathan-Crusader-%288.5%22-Mult-dsh-Part/Detail

Cheap, plastic, I'm planning on covering it in Chaos Symbols, corpes, and other evilness and getting some different weapons put on, basically what I am asking is if it is near the size of a Titan and if it would be a good unit to use as a count as titan?

No, it is smaller that warhound and more than knight.

Actually, it is pretty close in size to a Warhound:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep in mind that bases there make the big difference in height.

It may be close in height, but its clearly much smaller than a warhound.

The head is a lot smaller but in a apoc game i wouldnt mind, bad ass ass can as well!

Wouldn't allow it. Not only is it too small (important in a game with TLOS), it doesn't look anything like a Warhound.

On the other hand, I know of plenty of Apocalypse players who love cheap proxy models and don't care how ugly or stupid they look, so there's a good chance that the people you're going to play with will allow it.

Try coming up with your own data sheet for it, basing it off of available information? Apocalypse encourages stuff like that. Give it a try, submit it to Proposed Rules and get it refined. After that propose it to an opponent and you should be okay.

I'd allow it as I find it looks way better than the current model. Also any chance to stiff GW/FW for their ludicrous prices the better.

In sense rule of cool. It's close enough to the same size, just don't do cheesy LOS shenanigans and you'll be golden.

I'd allow it.

Why not use the paperhammer version of the warhound, it's signifactly cheaper and it's scaled to size.

I'd allow it. If you're playing Apoc and start getting butt hurt about model sizes THAT much, you're going to need to step back...

... It's APOC. XD

If you bought it, built it, and paint it, great! Just know it can die first turn like everything else!

I want one eventually.

It is basically a 'knight' titan which has no GW model or rules. Just like the old Epicast Stompas who are super shrimpy now... But I use mine as 'Megadreds' now.


Apocalypse is so beer and pretzels, just find some internet rules for Knight titans or make rules similar to the power of the Megadred and call it a day.

I wouldn't allow it as a Warhounds personally. Knight, or some other homebrew machine, fine, but it's far too small to be a Warhound.

 TheKbob wrote:
I'd allow it. If you're playing Apoc and start getting butt hurt about model sizes THAT much, you're going to need to step back...

... It's APOC. XD

I don't see why "it's Apoc" is an excuse for using bad proxy models. Yes, Apocalypse is a poorly balanced mess rules-wise, but that just means you shouldn't exploit the rule issues. Wanting to play a game with legitimate models instead of proxies that look nothing like the powerful unit they're pretending to be is an entirely legitimate desire.

If you do a google search for lords of Battle V2 you will find some homebrew rules for a couple of Knight varients.


but yeah, the crusader is a little too small to really proxy for a Warhound IMHO.

Still a really nice looking model though.

I'd allow it, based on That Thing Is Flippin Awesome.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I'd allow it. If you're playing Apoc and start getting butt hurt about model sizes THAT much, you're going to need to step back...

... It's APOC. XD

I don't see why "it's Apoc" is an excuse for using bad proxy models. Yes, Apocalypse is a poorly balanced mess rules-wise, but that just means you shouldn't exploit the rule issues. Wanting to play a game with legitimate models instead of proxies that look nothing like the powerful unit they're pretending to be is an entirely legitimate desire.

Because bad proxy is subjective. It's a game mode with shoddy rules and not to be taken seriously.

The cost of a Warhound versus the Crusader is over 3 gold almost. Also, you'd look like a huge jerk for telling someone no. When people can use papercraft stuff for Apocalypse, then you can use a slightly smaller model. Good chance it will die before firing, like everything in apoc.

Be a hard ass for tourneys, maybe even friendly play. But just relax and let people have nonsensical fun in Apoc. So I do not think it's a legitimate desire.

Or you will probably be upset in a lot of our local apoc games XD (hint, everyone proxies)

I wouldn't allow it to be a Warhound as the weapons, size, and LoS allowances aren't even close.

But I would allow it to be a homebrew item with its own rules.

Allow home brew rules but not a slightly smaller model?

XD that's a riot. Something potentially broken versus it maybe getting a cover save and it technically has a worse LOS itself.

Comedy gold.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I wouldn't allow it to be a Warhound as the weapons, size, and LoS allowances aren't even close.

But I would allow it to be a homebrew item with its own rules.

Does anyone ever have problems drawing line of sight to the incredible mass of devastation that is both of these models? I mean, they stand head and torso taller than most buildings.

What if I called it a Wardog and gave it the exact same rules as a warhound?

Call it a WarPup and claim it is part of the Emperor's new green technology initiative. All the Dakka of a WarHound, 50% less metal used.

It looks cool? It's in. (in my opinion).

Sure it's not the right shape to be a warhound for LOS purposes. Tell them it's a pre-heresy one, they built 'em smaller back then?

I can't imagine that will ever really be relevant unless one of your opponents wants to make an issue of it, so ask them if they are cool with it first. They will say yes (most likely) and then game on from there.

Well I'm biased since I have a pair of crusaders specifically for Apoc play, but if it was me across the table I'd say green lit for rule of cool, they're cool models, they're similarly scaled, so long as the weapons are online with what you say they are (Turbolaser has something turbolaser looking as opposed to that big dakka cannon on the extremely well painted Crusader pretre linked) then pop it on the table! Honestly at the sizes both models are at, it's not like any one's going to have ANY problem shooting at them.

Homebrew it as one of those Knights from Epic. I think theyre like mini-Titans crewed by one dude. Ill find a link....

EDIT: BAM! Its got the perfect loadout too. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights#.UZTnt6LVCB0

 TheKbob wrote:


The cost of a Warhound versus the Crusader is over 3 gold almost. Also, you'd look like a huge jerk for telling someone no. When people can use papercraft stuff for Apocalypse, then you can use a slightly smaller model. Good chance it will die before firing, like everything in apoc.

Be a hard ass for tourneys, maybe even friendly play. But just relax and let people have nonsensical fun in Apoc. So I do not think it's a legitimate desire.

Or you will probably be upset in a lot of our local apoc games XD (hint, everyone proxies)

When why such a hard-on for demanding the more powerful rules of a warhound? If it is nonsensical fun, then why not accept a slightly less-powerful rule-set of the titan?

Every Apoc event I have ever been to had dozens of 'homebrew' units as we all have loads of epic-themed models which there are no rules for. So Since half the table is customr ules, who cares if your using a Knight instead of warhound stats... Unless you are a powergamer.

I have the Great Gargant, loads of Epicast/Armorcast models, Weirdboy towers. I can't even use most of my models without homebrew rules which are usually agreed to by everyone organizing the event. If someone who is using Knight titans is so unwilling to use homebrew rules... the justification of 'casual game means I get to powergame and proxy powerful models' doesn't float.

 TheKbob wrote:
Allow home brew rules but not a slightly smaller model?

XD that's a riot. Something potentially broken versus it maybe getting a cover save and it technically has a worse LOS itself.

Comedy gold.

It has a size difference about equal to that of a Terminator to a Guardsman (in footprint and size)....seems like a good way to make your comedy gold seem like simplicity gold when people can see how playing it could be a little wonky. And designing the rules is fairly easy with those in place and known to NEVER create 'potentially broken' units...I don't see where the problem is? I'm guessing you have no experience with the building rules or what they create.

I don't mind if you use it, but counting it as a Warhound with two D-Str weapons instead of the rotary weapon with a close combat weapon? M'kay no.

It could be that you don't play many Apoc games and this is the one chance to have a Warhound, but in our club we play plenty with plenty of Warhounds represented without the need for this 'allowance'.

In my opinion, it looks cooler then a Warhound, the Warhound is the one that looks stupid and an impossible concept.

If you would built both ot them for real, guess wich one, will be stable and wich one will fall on his nose...

Dreamforge Leviathan is an awesome model, and we want to play with AND against awesome models, and its not a half inche different between the two that will hurt the LoS, someone using this argument is bonkers, or you can put on a higher base and be done with it.

Of course you can. Everyone telling you that you cant is just someone you dont play apoc with. Thats it.

Apoc is about seeing cool models explode killing more models. This is a cool model and is able to explode. Therefore it MUST be used in Apoc.

Also they are making a "chaosy" version ... dont know if its available already. The Leviathan Mortis

I'd allow it without question.

When you are playing apocalypse, as others have correctly stated, proxies matter much less than in regular 40k.

Not to mention that some other types of model add a bit of flare to the game! It's nice to see something that is quite-like-but-not-exactly a Warhound Titan. It'll be especially good if they do a bit of a chaos conversion like he stated in the original.

I think you would have to be quite retentive to deny your opponent using this as a Warhound Titan. I say go for it!

Hope you have great craic in your Apoc game, 2x210! =)

 Marsden wrote:
I'd allow it without question.

When you are playing apocalypse, as others have correctly stated, proxies matter much less than in regular 40k.

Not to mention that some other types of model add a bit of flare to the game! It's nice to see something that is quite-like-but-not-exactly a Warhound Titan. It'll be especially good if they do a bit of a chaos conversion like he stated in the original.

I think you would have to be quite retentive to deny your opponent using this as a Warhound Titan. I say go for it!

Hope you have great craic in your Apoc game, 2x210! =)

Proxies matter much less? The idea of Apoc is indeed taking those awesome models and slapping them on a table to kill and be kiled. But that isn't a Warhound model and isn't even close to it in representation. Now slapping that amazing item on the table that looks like a Knight Titan and making it a Knight Titan. THAT is what Apoc is all about.

Here is an oversimplified idea of my reasoning:

"I have these 100 amazing Guardsmen models that are all custom done, I can't wait to field them as Deathwing terminators!!'
versus
"I have these 100 amazing Guardsmen models that are all custom done, I can't wait to field them as DKoK!"

No problem with you fielding it, but at least make it something close to what it appears like.

Another idea. Having something like that on the table might be great for the player with the model, but having another Warhound titan somebody bought and painted beautifully....wrecked by the chainsaw arm shooting D-Str weapons...not as fun for the other guy.

Again...we have no problems with people having the awesome models in question for use in FW...so that may make me lean the way I do.