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2013/05/15 04:23:12
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
After Andrea Jones had gender reassignment surgery and was recognized as female by the Social Security office, she went into a Tennessee DMV office to change the gender on her driver’s license—but they denied her request.
So she walked out into the parking lot, removed her shirt and the police arrested her for indecent exposure, though it’s completely legal for men to go around shirtless.
Even the police report refers to Jones as a man, something she has responded to thusly: “If I was a male, I had the right to, when I stepped out the door, take off my shirt. It’s not right for the state to ask me to be both male and female. A choice needs to be made. They cannot hold me to both standards.”
She’s right. In the meanwhile she’s a female to the Social Security Administration, a male to the Department of Motor Vehicles and somewhere in between to the police.
Concur with Hats, I have to say that's probably one of the best ways I've heard of that kind of gak being handled. The hell is up with the DMV? I get it's not exactly the elite admin types staffing those offices but still...
I want to be a fly on the wall in the prosecutor's office when the cops explain this one.
"So you arrested this individual for indecent exposure..."
*cops nod*
"...but the driver's license lists her gender as male... so we technically can't charge her..."
*confused look from cops*
"...feth someone get me some coffee this is gonna be a long day"
On a side note, is it just me or are indecent exposure laws for women going topless kinda BS in general? It's a boob. Or a pair of them. Do we really have to freak out if a chick decides to play skins for a shirts and skins basketball game?
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
I'm both sympathetic to her plight, and impressed by how she protested the issue.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/05/15 06:55:33
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Sigvatr wrote: Born a man, you are a man. Period. Slapping some boobs on won't change that.
Congratulations, you win the "most ignorant and offensive comment of the day" award. Possibly for the entire week even.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/15 07:19:16
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/05/15 07:25:02
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
She entered an Alford plea to the charge of resisting arrest. An "Alford Plea" is a type of plea made when an accused purports their innocence although they chose to enter a guilty plea. If a strong factual basis exists supporting an Alford plea, the court will accept such plea. No trial occurs with this type of plea.
The State dropped the charge for indecent exposure. It's my opinion that had they not dropped that particular charge and Andrea had entered a "Not Guilty" plea, the State would not have been able to prove their case and the subsequent resisting arrest. In Tennessee, it is legal to resist an unlawful arrest. Most likely, since the State knew they could not prove the indecent exposure, they knew the resisting arrest charge would not have stood.
She had poor public counsel which she met, in person, for the first time, during the proceedings. He did not want to fight and the prosecutor had scared her to death. She had already served 23 days in jail and was released after her estranged father posted a $1000 cash bond. In addition, she was sentenced to two years of supervised probation plus, if I remember correctly, $2000 in court cost and fines. In addition, she would have to pay monthly probation supervision fees.
There were honest-to-God repeat DUI offenders and child pornography cases that preceded her that received lesser
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/15 07:46:50
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Good on her. Showing up the stupidity of the DMV and the local police (Well, possibly, they may have arrested her and then said, I see what you are doing, you see why we arrested you, and I see what will happen if we try and push this to court. Good luck and please don't do it again!).
What I want to know is who called the police? Did they happen to be driving past or did the DMV call them?
On a side note, is it just me or are indecent exposure laws for women going topless kinda BS in general? It's a boob. Or a pair of them. Do we really have to freak out if a chick decides to play skins for a shirts and skins basketball game?
Ye, I agree. I do find the law odd. Basicly because women have a little more fat in one area than menSome men alot of men in many places it is counted as indecent exposure... I personaly think there is a time and a place for things and don't want to be seeing men or women wandering round a shop topless, but also don't think there should be any differentiation in areas where it is ok. In the park on a sunny saterday afternoon for example. I would never do it (and I don't think anyone wants to see my pasty white skin), but we should not be having this kind of gender split in law (The law is much the same in the UK).
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2013/05/15 08:42:48
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Sigvatr wrote: Born a man, you are a man. Period. Slapping some boobs on won't change that.
Congratulations, you win the "most ignorant and offensive comment of the day" award. Possibly for the entire week even.
I would agree, but I saw a guy congratulate the owners of a restaurant for taking all the wait staffs tips for themselves, and that it would encourage the waiters to work harder, and then thanked god for all his glory.
I decided to look it up again to get the exact quote: I saw the show and I like the way the do not give the tips to the help, because that will help them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps!! With God's love anything is possible!
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/05/15 08:55:36
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Sigvatr wrote:Born a man, you are a man. Period. Slapping some boobs on won't change that.
What about "slapping a vagina on", would that change it? Followed by massive doses of hormone therapy? How about a personal sense of self-identification for the trifecta?
2013/05/15 09:14:03
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
On a side note, is it just me or are indecent exposure laws for women going topless kinda BS in general? It's a boob. Or a pair of them. Do we really have to freak out if a chick decides to play skins for a shirts and skins basketball game?
Yet another example of our extreme puritanical roots as a country... There have been articles recently about women attempting to breast feed their infants in a store (there have been recent articles that happened in Target, as well as the on base Commissary in Hawaii).
I will never understand the kinds of idiots who scream bloody murder at a parent actually trying to take care of their children. And no, a breastfeeding mother should not be forced to use a covering of some type, as KM pointed out, its a boob.... big fething deal.
2013/05/15 11:00:12
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Sigvatr wrote: Born a man, you are a man. Period. Slapping some boobs on won't change that.
Gotta say I’m sort of in agreement with this.
If living your life dressing an behaving as if you are a member of the opposite sex makes you happy then by all means go for it, it’s your life and you should be able to live it as you see fit. But no matter how much cosmetic surgery you may have or hormone injections you may take, your new gender is still an artificial construct.
This persons natural biological state is that of a man. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
2013/05/15 11:16:12
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Why do you care? Its not really their business, or frankly yours. Its just the business of the people with this issue.
Translation: This topic is in no way wiener dog, gun toting, or queso related. Therefore Frazzled doesn't think its an issue.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/05/15 11:28:59
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
I tried ordering cheese on my burger in a Spanish Burger King, they wanted to give me beer instead. Normally I wouldn't object, but I do love me some cheese.
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Why do you care? Its not really their business, or frankly yours. Its just the business of the people with this issue.
Translation: This topic is in no way wiener dog, gun toting, or queso related. Therefore Frazzled doesn't think its an issue.
What if it were transgendered wiener dogs?
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
2013/05/15 11:37:39
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Why do you care? Its not really their business, or frankly yours. Its just the business of the people with this issue.
Translation: This topic is in no way wiener dog, gun toting, or queso related. Therefore Frazzled doesn't think its an issue.
What if it were transgendered wiener dogs?
With guns?
And on topic
I see this as similar to a name change - if someone changed their name, it would be rude to continue to refer to them using their old name.
If a man can only ever be a man and not be classed as a woman, even after surgery - would you make them use the mens toilets?
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/05/15 11:38:18
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Why do you care? Its not really their business, or frankly yours. Its just the business of the people with this issue.
Translation: This topic is in no way wiener dog, gun toting, or queso related. Therefore Frazzled doesn't think its an issue.
What if it were transgendered wiener dogs?
It wouldn't matter if ROdney thought he was a male or female. The bird he found/killed and secretly snuck into his kennel would still freak out the Wife, just like last night.
As long as you keep it out of my face, don't make me want to care about you (because I won't), bath regularly and shave if needed I don't care.
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't get the callousness of some of the comments in here.
I think you could find lots of grey areas when trying to define gender, i'm not sure what the problem is with defining them as female. It's not a choice that people wake up with one day, and go in for surgery the next.
Why do you care? Its not really their business, or frankly yours. Its just the business of the people with this issue.
Translation: This topic is in no way wiener dog, gun toting, or queso related. Therefore Frazzled doesn't think its an issue.
What if it were transgendered wiener dogs?
With guns?
And on topic
I see this as similar to a name change - if someone changed their name, it would be rude to continue to refer to them using their old name.
If a man can only ever be a man and not be classed as a woman, even after surgery - would you make them use the mens toilets?
Once again this is why Libertarians are superior. Its not he government's job to care whether you change your name or not, only that you fill out the right form in triplicate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/15 11:40:15
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/05/15 11:50:02
Subject: Re:TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
I tried ordering cheese on my burger in a Spanish Burger King, they wanted to give me beer instead. Normally I wouldn't object, but I do love me some cheese.
Waht, they serve beer in Spanish Burger Kings? Now we have a real issue to worry dakka. Why are the Spanish given beer when the rest of us have to put up with soda?
Sigvatr wrote: Born a man, you are a man. Period. Slapping some boobs on won't change that.
Gotta say I’m sort of in agreement with this.
If living your life dressing an behaving as if you are a member of the opposite sex makes you happy then by all means go for it, it’s your life and you should be able to live it as you see fit. But no matter how much cosmetic surgery you may have or hormone injections you may take, your new gender is still an artificial construct.
This persons natural biological state is that of a man. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.
How do you define who is born a man and who is born a woman then? What the doctor puts on a bit of paper? Anything else is not a black and white issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/15 11:51:47
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2013/05/15 12:19:45
Subject: TN Couldn’t Decide Whether Andrea Jones Is Male Or Female, So They Arrested Her
Kilkrazy wrote: By the X and Y chromosomes, except in cases where they do not conform to the usual standards.
But more to the point, people are assessing gender through gender identity or in short, what a person feels they are.
X and Y chromosomes genetically tell us who is male and female in our species, but it doesn't tell us psychologically and chemically who we are; that comes from a long process of discovery and self awareness.
So yes, you can be defined as man or woman genetically, but the identity is a whole 'nother subject.
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