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So i was thinking about load outs for my havocs and thought oblits and predator do enough AV when used properly so why not make my havoc squad a mid field force instead of backfield force.
So this means instead of our normal 5 man squad 4 auto cannons sit back and shoot at vehicles and glance things to death why not a 8 man squad 4 heavy bolters for crowd control?
Would it be worth it to use them as sort of a crowd control or just use them as anti vehicle?

Against some armies I think you might be on to something.
I'm particularly thinking vs Eldar, Dark Eldar, Nids, Orks. Could be worth a shot to glance weak flyers / rear armour of flyers with the heavy bolters (and bolters if they come close enough).

The problem against most is that the havocs compete for heavy weapons slots when you need some decent big guns to take out high armour vehicles and decent armour saves.

I would personally rather have the ACs but I see your logic there. I've had hit or miss success with 5 HB long fang squads and overall like the idea. It would also make your havoc squad even cheaper but only against low T hordesque armies would it be worthwhile.

Auotcannons really outshine Heavy Bolters for the same cost.

Against Meq heavy bolters are wounding on 3+ while autocannons on 2+, getting you halfway to the ROF lack. Against T5+ the autocannons are better. Against any AV the autocannons are better. The autocannons also have 12" more range. Converting the autocannons is also more fun.

Alright guys thanks for the fast response what i was thinking when i wrote the post was going against a primarily foot army with a few tanks sprinkled in sorry for not being clear in my first post my bad.

I run them as 4 missile launchers with flakk. No use in committing an expensive unit to kill infantry, that what troops do.

Do you find the flak upgrade worth it over pumping out more shots?

yup. I have downed enough fliers and, if there were none, the blasts do just fine to help anti-infantry. And kraks are real fun to shoot into dwindling units of terminators.

Heavy bolters really need to be cheaper to be considered.
They aren't bad really, they just lack the flexibility of the autocannon.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
yup. I have downed enough fliers and, if there were none, the blasts do just fine to help anti-infantry. And kraks are real fun to shoot into dwindling units of terminators.

how do Krak missiles help kill terminators?

Krak is AP3, terminators have a 2+ save.

Your 175 point unit of flakk havocs without upgrades will kill .37 termaintors in one shooting round. That is hardly helpful.

oops, I meant marines in general. that's what happens when one talks and types at the same time...

To go even further with this train of thought, why not run a 5-man squad of havocs in a rhino with meltaguns and a combi-melta? Or flamers, or plasmaguns. Use them as a cheaper alternative to a chosen or raptor hit squad.

I quite like that idea especially if your trying to run a some what themed list with say
HQ
Abadon
Troops
Chosen various marks and wargear

Heavy support
Havocs pretty much the same as the chosen

I think that in a small point game would be pretty fun.

 Badablack wrote:
To go even further with this train of thought, why not run a 5-man squad of havocs in a rhino with meltaguns and a combi-melta? Or flamers, or plasmaguns. Use them as a cheaper alternative to a chosen or raptor hit squad.

Don't havocs have to use heavy weapons or none at all? I could see it working if they get multi-meltas or heavy flamers. In this scenario they might be worth taking the heavy bolters though, to get them down field on the first turns and then drop them off so they can get some shots around cover saves etc. Could help abuse the focus fire rule to really thin out large blobs with important things hiding. It would be very unconventional too which may throw your opponent off guard.

- VardenV2

 Badablack wrote:
To go even further with this train of thought, why not run a 5-man squad of havocs in a rhino with meltaguns and a combi-melta? Or flamers, or plasmaguns. Use them as a cheaper alternative to a chosen or raptor hit squad.

I like this idea but am pretty sure they would be on foot turn one. One of the best things about oblits is the ability to deep strike them into the rear of your opponents mech and melta or multi melta the rear and have a chance to survive or at least divert enough.fire power away from the rest of your force to allow you to maneuver and chip away at other targets.

Havocs may replace their Bolters with a weapon, they don't have to. You could have a 5 man Havoc squad with no heavy or special weapons if you wanted. Please don't though lol, that would just be sad.

People may change how they look at Havocs this time around. The fact that they aren't just a heavy weapon's squad now, but can also take Flamers/Meltaguns/Plasma Guns opens up some new options. A squad like Badablack suggested (5 w/ Meltaguns in a Rhino) would cost you 150 points. 170 if you wanted x4 Plasma instead, or 130 for x4 Flamers.

Or better, take Huron and Infiltrate several units of Havocs for some Turn 1 shenanigans. 4 Flamers, a Combi-Flamer and Huron's Heavy Flamer hitting a unit on Turn 1 is an interesting thought.

 Badablack wrote:
To go even further with this train of thought, why not run a 5-man squad of havocs in a rhino with meltaguns and a combi-melta? Or flamers, or plasmaguns. Use them as a cheaper alternative to a chosen or raptor hit squad.

You certainly could, but I prefer to actually get my heavy weapons in the Heavy Support slots, so Obliterators, Havocks with Autocannons, and maybe a Forgefiend. Where else will I get fire support? The FA has a few big guns, but not enough for me. (I do own a hell blade)

The chosen I'm building are special weapon heavy to run with a Sorceror. Hopefully Forge World will release a new Dreadclaw model so I can treat them like kick-ass Sternguard.

 Badablack wrote:
To go even further with this train of thought, why not run a 5-man squad of havocs in a rhino with meltaguns and a combi-melta? Or flamers, or plasmaguns. Use them as a cheaper alternative to a chosen or raptor hit squad.

Unfortunately havocs do not have access to multi meltas. Only oblits and hellbrutes have access to that beauty I believe.

I believe you misread that. He didn't say multi-meltas. Havocks can take 4x Meltaguns and the Champion can take a combi-melta.

They could also do 4xPlasma Guns + Combi-plasma or 4xFlamers + combi-flamer, to finish the thought.

He said metlaguns, not multi-meltas

I think I was hoping it was multi meltas and was disappointed when it wasn't.

Chosen used to be great in the midfield for me, toting plasmas and meltas. Havocs ARE in power armor and are just as tough as anybody else with it, but I think I'd still go with chosen if I wanted to try a midfield heavy weapon squad. At least with the chosen you can have a few power weapons in the mix just in case they do get charged. Too bad they don't have infiltrate anymore, but this is a good reason to run Huron. Huron in the middle of a pack of chosen is a significant threat. Bring some havocs too, and hope you can infiltrate both squads? Keep the havocs with heavier guns and further away, though, or you're just wasting points. I usually run havocs as antiarmor/big guns for when something REALLY needs to die, and chosen as a power armor hit squad.

I always reach the same conclusion when I think about special weapon Havocs or Chosen.
Why don't I take combi Terminators instead?

Munga wrote:
Chosen used to be great in the midfield for me, toting plasmas and meltas. Havocs ARE in power armor and are just as tough as anybody else with it, but I think I'd still go with chosen if I wanted to try a midfield heavy weapon squad. At least with the chosen you can have a few power weapons in the mix just in case they do get charged. Too bad they don't have infiltrate anymore, but this is a good reason to run Huron. Huron in the middle of a pack of chosen is a significant threat. Bring some havocs too, and hope you can infiltrate both squads? Keep the havocs with heavier guns and further away, though, or you're just wasting points. I usually run havocs as antiarmor/big guns for when something REALLY needs to die, and chosen as a power armor hit squad.

Plus if you have abbadon then they are not only a special weapon squad but troops.