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Forgeworld Hell Blade as counts as Heldrake?
Yes I would allow it
No I wouldn't allow it
I would allow it but...

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






St. Albans

I would appreciate your help to sort out a friendly dispute I'm having with one of my mates that I play 40k with. I hate the Heldrake model and so bought a Hell Blade instead [which I love] and I've been using it as a counts as Heldrake [I've also been using a Razorwing as well but I won't include that in the poll as it will confuse matters]. My friend thinks that if I want to use a Heldrake I should buy the correct model. We've pretty much got completely the opposite view on this so I thought I would see what you all thought so we can try to reach an agreement.

His argument - the Heldrake is larger than the Hell Blade with a bigger silhouette and with true LoS I'm getting an unfair advantage. Proxying should only be used to try out new models before buying them. If I'm using the Hell Blade I should use the Hell Blade rules.

My argument - it's roughly the same size and looks amazing. I'm not spending money on a model I hate. Lots of people have modeled their Heldrakes to have a smaller wingspan anyway. I don't have an issue with proxying. I should be able to choose whether I use the Hell Blade rules or the Heldrake.

So what do you think? These are friendly games by the way.

Edit - added a third option - I would allow it but...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/19 21:07:37


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






I would probably allow it since the Helldrake model looks stupid, but I would expect that in the unlikely event that you would be in a position to gain a LOS advantage (it's going to be above most terrain) you count it as having the full wingspan and don't try to claim cover/LOS blocking based on the smaller model.

On the other hand, the Hell Blade does have its own rules and it's pretty obvious that you're using the Helldrake rules instead because they're more powerful. So I can understand your friend getting kind of annoyed about it, especially if you haven't made any effort to convert the Hell Blade model to have the Helldrake's weapons.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

 Peregrine wrote:
I would probably allow it since the Helldrake model looks stupid, but I would expect that in the unlikely event that you would be in a position to gain a LOS advantage (it's going to be above most terrain) you count it as having the full wingspan and don't try to claim cover/LOS blocking based on the smaller model.

On the other hand, the Hell Blade does have its own rules and it's pretty obvious that you're using the Helldrake rules instead because they're more powerful. So I can understand your friend getting kind of annoyed about it, especially if you haven't made any effort to convert the Hell Blade model to have the Helldrake's weapons.


I don't normally agree with Peregrine, but this time he's pretty much taken the opinions directly from my brain and typed them out. If you really want to do it that way, it's fine, but you need to definitely convert it to have the correct weapons, and the right thing to do would be to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt if the smaller model profile would give you an unfair game advantage.

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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





USA

Idk, the LoS thing...

My idea would be to go on Bitz Barn and buy some parts, and make it roughly the same size, and not feth it up at the same time.

World Eater's 3rd Company-1650 pts  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Typhus the Betrayer wrote:
Idk, the LoS thing...


It's a flyer, which means it's on a tall base and usually above terrain. In this case the difference in model size will rarely make a meaningful difference in LOS, and it should be fine as long as the OP is willing to count it as being larger than it really is if any dispute comes up.

As for converting it, no. You're not going to make a Hell Blade the size of a Helldrake without completely changing the model and negating the whole point of using the Hell Blade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/19 23:46:33


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




West Chester, PA

I would allow it as long as the weapons are correct.

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Made in nl
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice



The Netherlands

Voted no as I agree with your friend that proxying is only really acceptable when trying out new things.

When playing I understand people using proxies as part of the fun is to play with different models and there are tons of reasons why you don't have the model for the one you like to try out (either not yet bought/modelled/still on the painting station/etc). However I also believe very much in WYSIWYG and the Hell Drake and Hell Blade are nothing alike in either size or weaponry.

If you were adamant on using the Hell Blade I suggest you at least convert it to have the correct weapons and to not take advantage of its size, as in not claiming cover (although with the 5+ inv that hardly ever is an issue) and not using its smaller size to hide it (hardly ever an option, but still).

To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a different heavy weapon every game.

But as you said it is for friendly games and as such it doesn't matter what I think only what your friends think.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






DutchSage wrote:
To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a different heavy weapon every game.


Not really. The OP is using a more expensive model to replace one they think is ugly and doing it as a permanent change, not swapping heavy weapons every game because they're too cheap or lazy to buy the right one.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

I also agree with Peregrine. You should really think about buying the correct weapon to put on it (perhaps magnetize). Otherwise it is a flyer and the hellturkey model is just plain bad.
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Absolutely. The Hellblade looks awesome, and the Heldrake does not. Also, the Heldrake is meant to be a possessed Hellblade anyway.

However, you'd get a much better idea of what your usual opponents think of the idea if you ask them rather than us.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

I'd have zero problems with it. No reasonable opponent should have any problems with it either, especially considering you can build a Heldrake to have the wings pointing straight forward and have pretty much identical dimensions anyway.

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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Redacted by Mannahnin

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/20 02:37:12


 
   
Made in nl
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice



The Netherlands

 Peregrine wrote:
DutchSage wrote:
To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a different heavy weapon every game.


Not really. The OP is using a more expensive model to replace one they think is ugly and doing it as a permanent change, not swapping heavy weapons every game because they're too cheap or lazy to buy the right one.


True, but as he mentioned he said: "I should be able to choose whether I use the Hell Blade rules or the Heldrake" it does come close. But you were right, so the correct thing I should have said was:

To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a flamer, because I don't like how the flamer model looks. And feeling it is fully acceptable to choose to use the flamer or the lascannon rules.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I can't say it's the same as treating a marine with a lascannon as having a flamer. Those are two totally different weapons, one of which is about the size of the guy using it.

If the Hell Blade has been converted to have a large flamer-type weapon, with some kind of swivel/underslung turret to show that it's got 360 degree arc, it would seem perfectly reasonable to me. And with the aforementioned caveat that, since it's a smaller model, if there are any questions about Line of Sight/Cover, you will by default play it in your opponent's favor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/20 03:07:00


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Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

 Peregrine wrote:
I would probably allow it since the Helldrake model looks stupid, but I would expect that in the unlikely event that you would be in a position to gain a LOS advantage (it's going to be above most terrain) you count it as having the full wingspan and don't try to claim cover/LOS blocking based on the smaller model.

On the other hand, the Hell Blade does have its own rules and it's pretty obvious that you're using the Helldrake rules instead because they're more powerful. So I can understand your friend getting kind of annoyed about it, especially if you haven't made any effort to convert the Hell Blade model to have the Helldrake's weapons.

Have an exalt.

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Made in au
Norn Queen






DutchSage wrote:
To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a flamer, because I don't like how the flamer model looks. And feeling it is fully acceptable to choose to use the flamer or the lascannon rules.


I don't see why this is a problem either, if anyone actually wanted to do it. As long as they're got a replacement armament for Lascannons, and kept it consistent across their whole army (so Lascannon armed vehicles had the replacement as well).

The only argument against using a Hellblade is, as already mentioned, the size. That's easy enough to get around by accepting in the rare case the flyer gets cover that the model is bigger than it is for LoS purposes.

If you want to make it easier for your opponent, make a soft foam template the size of a Heldrake that you can put on top of the Hellblade in those situations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/20 03:12:36


 
   
Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept





I would totally allow it as the heldrake is a complete crap looking model that deserves ridicule and replacement by proxy.

I wouldnt be bothered about the weapons being converted as long as you made it clear what the weapons were.

I am extremely lenient about these things in casual games and probably wouldnt play a casual game against someone who is uptight about using a nice model for a proxy, especially like the case you describe. I can hardly see where the difference in size is giving you a real advantage. That is just a naff idea and I can well imagine some of the other arguments you must have with this player.

   
Made in gb
Horrific Howling Banshee




Hemel Hempstead

So if wounds can only be allocated to models the HD can see, how do you work that out if the HD is using another model that has no head or flamer weapon mount? Maybe I'm just understanding the rules wrong, please advise if so.

 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Keep in mind one can already build the Heldrake with pretty much identical proportions to a Hell Blade already without any modification or conversion work of the existing model, you just need to point the wings forward As such, even dimensionally it's not too bad off.

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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Why not? If size is not an issue, who cares as long as you do it well?
   
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Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

I'm currently in the process of converting a Dakkajet I won into a Heldrake, because much like the OP I dislike the Heldrake model. I play with the same 4 people that were there when I won the jet (it also fits my Iron Warriors better ). I'm currently working out how to do the following:

1) Make it less orky, add Chaos Icons where I can
2) Convert parts of the turret to look like a flamer turret to represent the Baleflamer (this was done pretty easy)
3) Add something to make the jet look like it could feasibly make a s7 Vector Strike against something.

So far 1 and 3 are proving difficult atm due to lack of parts... I full expect tournaments to not let me use my "Heljet" as a Heldrake, but for the friendly games I play, no one cares. With that being said, a Hell Blade shouldn't cause much of an issue, I'm fairly certain I saw people using Hell Blades at AdeptiCon as Heldrakes (though I can, and most likely am, wrong).

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






St. Albans

 rubicant99 wrote:
So if wounds can only be allocated to models the HD can see, how do you work that out if the HD is using another model that has no head or flamer weapon mount? Maybe I'm just understanding the rules wrong, please advise if so.


Hello mate! In the FAQs it says that the baleflamer is a turret weapon so 360 firing arc [LOS]. Not sure about how you work out if you can see units behind cover though.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Howling Banshee




Hemel Hempstead

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
 rubicant99 wrote:
So if wounds can only be allocated to models the HD can see, how do you work that out if the HD is using another model that has no head or flamer weapon mount? Maybe I'm just understanding the rules wrong, please advise if so.


Hello mate! In the FAQs it says that the baleflamer is a turret weapon so 360 firing arc [LOS]. Not sure about how you work out if you can see units behind cover though.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.


Yo, thats my point, in a case where models are potentially out of LOS eg partially blocking terrain - not obvious if a model can be seen - how do you work that out if the HD does not have the correct head & weapons setup?

 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Central Pennsylvania

I'd be for you using it as long as you make a concerted effort on the weapon configuration and understand the size difference and give in to LoS issues during the game.

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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






[quote=DutchSage 528108 5636733 null

To be honest, without converting this falls in the category of playing with a marine with a lascannon that counts as a different heavy weapon every game.



Not really. It is more like telling me that I can't use my custom Belial because there is an official model out now. This isn't really proxying, it's more of a "counts as".

Personally, I'm not a fan of the new chaos aesthetic, especially in the Fiends and the Heldrake. I'm in the process of converting a Halo 3 crawler into a Maulerfiend. I like the look better.
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

I'd be fine with this. I plan to do the same (but scratch building it) when i get around to updating my csm.

   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

I see no problem with this.

If it's a friendly game, who cares? If they want an exact model tell them to buy it for you and you'll happily use it.

From now on you should be like a hawk watching their models. If you see one thing wrong cry havoc!

Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon



Marrickville (sydney) NSW, Australia

If it's on the right base, the weapons are correct and it looks cool I don't see any problems what so ever. And seriously, anyone who has an issue with it has issues of their own. You're not proxying a coke can for a flyer, you're using a different model for one you don't like. And it's a forgeworld model making it legal even in tournaments I believe.

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Made in au
Norn Queen






 Vaktathi wrote:
Keep in mind one can already build the Heldrake with pretty much identical proportions to a Hell Blade already without any modification or conversion work of the existing model, you just need to point the wings forward As such, even dimensionally it's not too bad off.


See, that looks much better. It actually looks like it's meant to, a possessed Hellblade.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





USA

I absolutely say go for it. The difference in the size is not really all that much. To me it’s like the people “you can’t use old rhinos because that is modeling for advantage”. Not every piece of equipment is going to look exactly the same, especially when it is a few thousand years old and possessed by a daemon.

Also just a Vaktathi said you can model the wings of the Heldrake to be in the same direction as the Helltalon so they can have the same dimensions.

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