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I asked this on another forum, and the answers there have not led me to a conclusion.

A monster has all of its handlers killed and has to roll on the monster reaction table. The spell Regrowth is cast on the unit, reviving its handlers. Is the monster reaction negated? or does the reaction stay in place? It would make sense to me that since the handlers are back, what are they doing if not handling the monster, making it do what they want it to do. The monster reactions from the table all say things that state that the effect will be in play the rest of the game BUT that is assuming that the handlers are just gone forever. The rulebook doesnt say one way or another what happens if the handlers come back. It doesnt say "this reaction is in affect as long as there is no handler" but likewise it does not say "this reaction is in affect even if a handler comes back".

What do you guys think? Have you ever had this scenario? and how did you play it out?

Nothing states the reaction is negated, so it remains

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing states the reaction is negated, so it remains

Yeah I have to agree with this, by the RAW.

Yup nos has it right again.

I'm not sure that revive brings back handlers.
Handlers have a pretty specific listing of how and when they interact with the rules.
I'll have to check the specific wording... poopy diaper more pressing issue... damn you nurgle, what is that smell?

-Matt

Either way, even if you can bring back handlers the result still stands.

Monsters and Handlers is actually a Special Rule, not a model in a unit. They can't be resurrected. In fact the SR says you can ignore them for most game purposes.

There's a bunch of FAQs on M&H. They basically all say to ignore the handlers except for LD tests and then you use the highest.

Not sure why that would imply that they can't be regrown. Warmachine crew can presumably be regrown and have similarish rules.
Handlees attack seperate from the monster in cc and there is an exact number of them.
Monster rwaction still remains as no RAW removes it.

It implies it can't be regrown because no spell ever says it can. It's not a Wound. Healing restores wounds and models. They list exactly what can be regrown. The crew of a warmachine are the literal representation of the Wounds. Handlers are not, they are a special rule. Regrowth doesn't say it restores special rules.

Or to quote the BRB:

The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Healing restores wounds and models.

Handlers do have wounds, and they are models even if they are unimportant ones.
Also they aren't a "special rule" they are models in a unit with a special rule, and they are referred to as models in said rule.

When a monster suffers an unsaved wound roll a D6. On a roll of X-Y the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of Z-C a handler model is removed instead.

 HoverBoy wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Healing restores wounds and models.

Handlers do have wounds, and they are models even if they are unimportant ones.
Also they aren't a "special rule" they are models in a unit with a special rule, and they are referred to as models in said rule.

When a monster suffers an unsaved wound roll a D6. On a roll of X-Y the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of Z-C a handler model is removed instead.

You cannot heal handlers, and here is why:
In the hydra unit, the hydra is the rank and file model, the handlers are the special guys. Regrowth heals and brings back command first, then rank and file. Monster Handlers aren't in the sequence of what is healed.

Also:
Q: Certain spells, most notably Regrowth from the Lore of Life, allow you to resurrect models that have been killed or even add extra models to a unit. What happens if some or all of the models added to a unit do not fit at the back?(Reference)
A: Any models that do not have space to be placed at the back of the unit are lost.
Since handlers don't rank up at all, they are lost.

-Matt

The FAQ note is irrelevant. It is talking about not being be able to regrow models if there is no space, not adding a new rule that only things which rank up are able to be regrown. Also, the FAQ says nothing about ranking up.

Handlers can sit at the back of their unit.

Niteware wrote:
The FAQ note is irrelevant. It is talking about not being be able to regrow models if there is no space, not adding a new rule that only things which rank up are able to be regrown. Also, the FAQ says nothing about ranking up.

Handlers can sit at the back of their unit.

The spell describes how and where recovered models rank up.
Handlers are "battle field markers", and don't rank up.

Ranking up or not, it doesn't matter. Handlers are not rank and file models.

-Matt

Hmm..interesting.

Assuming that you could revive handlers and the monster already lost a wound, how would you determine who gets the first regained wound? Randomize? The monster because it's a multi-wound model?

It clearly states in multiple places you can't revive them. So it's irrelevant. Regrowth has no wording that allows it and the special rule itself and FAQ says you ignore them and they are not part of the unit. You have as much reason to resurrect enemy models in another player's game as you do handlers in your own, as there is just as much game mechanics (i.e., none) that permits it.

Now Duke, you are probably right that they can't be resurrected but it doesn't "clearly state" in any place that you can't. It states that you can'tuse it on characters or their mounts. That is all.
The hyperbola, while in keeping with your inimitable style, do not contribute to the debate; treating people like idiots tends to polarise them.

While handlers are undeniably models lost as wounds, I think they could not be characterised as rank and file (as Maatt, Duke and others have said), so the wording of the spell seems to exclude them. I doubt that it is RAI, but it is RAW.

It states several times handlers are not part of the unit. Regrowth only works on models within the unit. It isn't hyperbole, it is English.

It isn't RAI at all, they go out of their way to say it. How many times does it take for them to:

The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit.

That is the very first sentence under the Special Rule. They repeat it in the FAQ, saying you don't use them for characteristics tests or movement.

For a rule to exist, there has to be INclusion. You don't look for EXclusion, as there are infinite things to be excluded. Nowhere does it say you can heal them.

DukeRustfield wrote:
It clearly states in multiple places you can't revive them. So it's irrelevant. Regrowth has no wording that allows it and the special rule itself and FAQ says you ignore them and they are not part of the unit. You have as much reason to resurrect enemy models in another player's game as you do handlers in your own, as there is just as much game mechanics (i.e., none) that permits it.

Oh, I don't disagree with you, in the contrary, just playing devil's advocate.

Stating that they are not counted as part of the unit for most combat purposes is not the same as stating that they can't be regrown. You infer one from the other.
The fact that you infer something does not make it stated. It means it was "not stated". This is different to being stated. In fact, it is the opposite.
Hyperbola are statements which are exagerated or over the top. Do you think I might have been referring to your wild ravings about other people's models being revived?

I think you are correct about the rule, but try to make a reasoned / balanced argument...

Hyperbola does not mean exaggerated or over the top. That would be hyperbole. Just like explaining that is going off on a tangent which is very different than going off to Tangiers.

No, it's pretty clear. They state exactly what can be raised. That's what all that wording is in the spell. They weren't just testing out their typewriters, or just giving you a ballpark idea what the spell does. It's the 100% complete totality of it. And the spell itself says there is a strict order, none of which has the remotest mention or hint of resurrecting part of a special rule. The spell consistently refers to unit, which the handlers have been repeatedly excluded from. Again, if the spell is not inclusive, it is not there. Regrowth does not kill all your enemies instantly either, do you know why, because it doesn't say it does. And the BRB has told us each spell will give us the complete instructions for using it under each description.

Agreed. That was exactly my point. It does not state anything about the handlers. You should also note that they are included in the unit and are part of the unit; the exception says that we treat them as if they aren't, which implies that they actually are.
Good point on the Hyperbola/e, my spelling is becoming lax.

Niteware wrote:
Agreed. That was exactly my point. It does not state anything about the handlers. You should also note that they are included in the unit and are part of the unit; the exception says that we treat them as if they aren't, which implies that they actually are.
Good point on the Hyperbola/e, my spelling is becoming lax.

It would be very hard to argue that they are rank and file though.
To be healed, they would have to be rank and file.

Now the real question. What unit has handlers and gets access to lore of life? Salamanders?

-Matt

Niteware wrote:
You should also note that they are included in the unit and are part of the unit; the exception says that we treat them as if they aren't, which implies that they actually are.

This is nonsense. "treating the monster itself as the EXTENT of the unit."[emphasis added] That 100% contradicts what you just said. The monster isn't part of the unit, it is the extent. I.e., all. My hyperbole is quite sound. Healing a handler that is not part of the unit is like healing anything else not part of the unit, whether on your game or someone else's game in the parking lot. A shield is not part of a unit just because a unit can buy it. Or more relevant a magic weapon. So if a magic weapon is destroyed by HE magic, you can't resurrect it with Regrowth even though, according to your logic, it is part of the unit. Regrowth states exactly what you can regrow. Handlers aren't it. The special rule says Monsters are the unit.

"if they are found to be blocking movement]...[the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any OTHER battlefield marker or counter" [emphasis added]

Again, not a unit. They are a counter. The SR is chock full of really explicit language that confirms this. It is quite clear.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Now the real question. What unit has handlers and gets access to lore of life? Salamanders?

-Matt

Good detective work, lol. Yes, salamanders are the unit I'm referring to.

From the lizardmen army book:

"Hunting Pack: Salamanders and their handlers fight in mixed units as Skirmishers. In close combat, the Salamanders always form the first rank, with the handlers formed up behind...

...Although the Salamanders are not classed as Monsters, if all the Skink Handlers are slain, then the remaining Salamanders must take a Leadership test, and if this is failed, roll on the Monster Reaction table."

It states that the Salamanders and the handlers are all skirmishers, making them all equal models in a unit (each of them is equally a skirmisher in a unit of skirmishers). It also talks about what rank the handlers go to in close combat, so they have a rank and file. Also, the salamander not being a monster, per se, just having to roll on the monster reaction table in a certain situation. Does this change anything?

Check the FAQ. Salamanders are treated as monsters for the purposes of the Monsters & Handlers rule.

Haha ok, maybe this is already covered, but what about squig herds? they aren't monsters and handlers but a mixed unit.. I think skaven have rat swarms and masters like that as well?

If you had a wizard hat, got life, got regrowth, and healed the squig herd. what order would you replace models and why?

Squig Herds have the troop type Infantry.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Squig Herds have the troop type Infantry.

but would you put down squigs or handlers to heal the unit first? or randomize? what if you have a unit of 15 squigs, 5 handlers, you got shot and took 3 handler wounds and 7 squig wounds. Leaving 8 squigs, 2 handlers. You cast regrowth and get to heal 4 wounds to unit. Do you add 4 squigs? 3 handlers 1 squig? 2 and 2? what if you randomized? what if during randomization you rolled all 4 wounds to be healed on goblins and not squigs? would you replace 3 handlers and 4th wound lost, or does a squig pop up for it? is it just up to the player to decide? That is my confusion.

I realize squig herds have infantry troop type. I just don't see anything addressing the mixed unit type.

They are infantry and have to be organized as infantry. I can't see how it matters, the wounds can be shared among them and I suspect the caster can choose since they are both single wound. You just have to put them in front rank like the spell says and continue from there. There are pros and cons of resurrecting each.

skyfi wrote:
Haha ok, maybe this is already covered, but what about squig herds? they aren't monsters and handlers but a mixed unit.. I think skaven have rat swarms and masters like that as well?

If you had a wizard hat, got life, got regrowth, and healed the squig herd. what order would you replace models and why?

You enter the black hole of rules. GW doesn't include rules on what to do when you have 2 types of rank and file. Rather than address the mixed units properly, they try and cover each hole as it pops up.
Skinks with Kroxigor, Rats with pack masters, Rat Ogres with pack masters and Squig Herds all have 2 different rank and file.

They covered the Stomp/Thunder Stomp, and even covered getting hit by a bolt thrower. They left out getting healed.

Lacking any rule, this is How I would Play It (and should be ignored for RAW).
Using the bolt thrower answer as a guide-line, I'd randomize the healing between the two parts, as if from shooting, with overflow rolling to the other should one part be fully healed.

-Matt