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I bought a box of Chaos Terminators and was wondering how to get them into the fight fast. I run a Huron army and was going to infiltrate them but I want options. The Chaos Land Raider looks neet ( Typical old school Chaos ie Space Marine stuff with some do dads on it) but its not as powerful as the regular Space Marine ones.

Is it worth the points?

Any ideas?

This is why termies are a no go for me, they really require a landraider to be effective, which essentially doubles their points, nearly 500 pts to get 5 termies into the fight? i'm SW so mine can't even teleport which would be my prefered method, but if you do want termies see if you can run a dreadclaw assault pod, bit hazy on the rules but you can assault out of it and it's technically a flyer, however the LR can have the abilty to deny overwatch which is neat, but no PotMS with lascannons is just bipolar, you want it in the fight which means it's guns are nearly useless till it's dropped the termies off, bad bad idea IMO, but i'm no chaos player so what do i really know?

A dreadclaw assault pod is certainly a better way to get them into the fight, but failing that, I'd rather just deep strike them than spend the points on a Land Raider.

I've run them before in squads of about 5 or 6, with combi plas and MoT, deep strike them in and blow something up within rapid fire range, but even then you can't assault until turn 3...
Still faster than foot slogging though.

I run 2x squads of 3 suicide units.

Both with 3x Combi Meltas to hopefully deep strike in and take out Heavy Armory or anything with HP

They also have MoT, but I may remove it since I really don't care if they survive or not

 Solomongrundy wrote:
I run 2x squads of 3 suicide units.

Both with 3x Combi Meltas to hopefully deep strike in and take out Heavy Armory or anything with HP

This is the best unit makeup for Chaos termies. 95pts for the bodies, 17pts for the combis. Cheap as chips and is a real thorn in the side of someone that has to either A.) deal with it or B.) waste a units AP2 on 3 models.

You could always Infiltrate them in the Land Raiders. I have done this several times with Huron. It forces your opponent to try and deal with them immediately. This helps especially when I am running multiple Vindicators.

Best use of a land raider I've seen recently is protecting a squad of cultists until late game while providing reasonable fire support.

 minigun762 wrote:
Best use of a land raider I've seen recently is protecting a squad of cultists until late game while providing reasonable fire support.

sounds like an expensive distraction carnifex still, I imagine it could draw an awful lot of fire away from the rest of your army (assuming you're not playing against railguns or something). where do you park it, though? in the back on a home-field objective or out in midfield somewhere to maximise the distraction potential?

CSM LRs are best used as shock troop deliverers. Zerkers will maximize your effectiveness of their use. However because they are used as a HS I would never take a LR over a Tri-Las-Pred

The best method I can personally suggest, from my own experience with them is to take 1 as a DT for 3 terminators (Combi-Plas upg, Grab yourself a Sorcerer, Grab yourself Abaddon, put them all in the same group, inside said Land Raider, Constantly buff Abaddon with Boon Of Mutation..

I've had my fair share of kekeke moments where Abby managed to roll boons like Bloated and Fleshbane, On other notes you can also use an unmarked Sorcerer and simply roll on Biomancy for Abaddon.. Hope for Iron Arm, make your Termiantors of Slanesh, give them Excess and then Abaddon has FNP.

Only really useful for an Abaddon star because they're still the same old schizo Phobus class. I guess you could slap on a havoc launcher to make it a bit better, but like the standard loyalist Land Raider, it has no idea what it wants to do.

 varl wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Best use of a land raider I've seen recently is protecting a squad of cultists until late game while providing reasonable fire support.

sounds like an expensive distraction carnifex still, I imagine it could draw an awful lot of fire away from the rest of your army (assuming you're not playing against railguns or something). where do you park it, though? in the back on a home-field objective or out in midfield somewhere to maximise the distraction potential?

It goes in the back.

It's not a distraction, it's a way to bring minimum troops and lascannons in one go. The cultists inside just chill until it's time to jump out on turn 5. The lascannons shoot stuff.

The idea is that no one will shoot the raiders from afar since av 14 is really tough to bring down from long range. So your super cheap troops are safe and you have super durable lascannons. This allows you to spend most of your points on things that get in the face of your opponent. If you put pressure on them with assault elements the chance of the land raiders being harassed are further decreased.

As for terminators, the best bet is probably to infiltrate a big squad of them. Deep striking won't let you assault until turn 3 and the land raider is expensive if you bring it to your enemy as that puts it in range of melta guns.

The idea is that no one will shoot the raiders from afar since av 14 is really tough to bring down from long range. So your super cheap troops are safe and you have super durable lascannons. This allows you to spend most of your points on things that get in the face of your opponent. If you put pressure on them with assault elements the chance of the land raiders being harassed are further decreased.

As for terminators, the best bet is probably to infiltrate a big squad of them. Deep striking won't let you assault until turn 3 and the land raider is expensive if you bring it to your enemy as that puts it in range of melta guns.

My Railheads disagree with that first paragraph.

Agreed on the Terminators though!

bogalubov wrote:

 varl wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Best use of a land raider I've seen recently is protecting a squad of cultists until late game while providing reasonable fire support.

sounds like an expensive distraction carnifex still, I imagine it could draw an awful lot of fire away from the rest of your army (assuming you're not playing against railguns or something). where do you park it, though? in the back on a home-field objective or out in midfield somewhere to maximise the distraction potential?

It goes in the back.

It's not a distraction, it's a way to bring minimum troops and lascannons in one go. The cultists inside just chill until it's time to jump out on turn 5. The lascannons shoot stuff.

The idea is that no one will shoot the raiders from afar since av 14 is really tough to bring down from long range. So your super cheap troops are safe and you have super durable lascannons. This allows you to spend most of your points on things that get in the face of your opponent. If you put pressure on them with assault elements the chance of the land raiders being harassed are further decreased.

As for terminators, the best bet is probably to infiltrate a big squad of them. Deep striking won't let you assault until turn 3 and the land raider is expensive if you bring it to your enemy as that puts it in range of melta guns.

Please, bring a land raider around with that kind of thinking.

My Valhallan Paskquisher needs more notches for his "Metal bawkses taken away" tally.

@ Tycho and Kain

Good job. You named two things that have high strength/long range fire power. Just remember that the land raiders are not the only forces in the army. Nothing exists in a vacuum in a 40k game and most units have hard counters.

bogalubov wrote:
@ Tycho and Kain

Good job. You named two things that have high strength/long range fire power. Just remember that the land raiders are not the only forces in the army. Nothing exists in a vacuum in a 40k game and most units have hard counters.

It just seems like a gross investment of points in a "transport" as a bunker that can only carry 10 cultists max who aren't fearless with only LD8 max with their champion. Against many more aggressive lists the Land Raider would be a paperweight because things that deep strike like Stormtrooper squads with meltas, the upcoming new Swooping Hawks (that don't scatter apparently (!)) who are likely armed with haywire grenades, enemy chaos suicide melta-terminators...the list goes on. Yes there are other forces your enemy has to account for but you have a massive chunk of points just sitting there hoping to snipe a few vehicles/MC's when it's LoS can be blocked by terrain (presuming you have enough) and the fact that a blob of 35 cultists with a dark apostle or other fearless character in the back behind an Aegis Defence Line would do just as well if not better and actually be able to survive an assaulting unit. After all your LR is just one explodes result away from shredding the bunkering unit of cultists inside that will likely pin and make them fail their morale test thereby leading them to run off the board.

 Grimskul wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
@ Tycho and Kain

Good job. You named two things that have high strength/long range fire power. Just remember that the land raiders are not the only forces in the army. Nothing exists in a vacuum in a 40k game and most units have hard counters.

It just seems like a gross investment of points in a "transport" as a bunker that can only carry 10 cultists max who aren't fearless with only LD8 max with their champion. Against many more aggressive lists the Land Raider would be a paperweight because things that deep strike like Stormtrooper squads with meltas, the upcoming new Swooping Hawks (that don't scatter apparently (!)) who are likely armed with haywire grenades, enemy chaos suicide melta-terminators...the list goes on. Yes there are other forces your enemy has to account for but you have a massive chunk of points just sitting there hoping to snipe a few vehicles/MC's when it's LoS can be blocked by terrain (presuming you have enough) and the fact that a blob of 35 cultists with a dark apostle or other fearless character in the back behind an Aegis Defence Line would do just as well if not better and actually be able to survive an assaulting unit. After all your LR is just one explodes result away from shredding the bunkering unit of cultists inside that will likely pin and make them fail their morale test thereby leading them to run off the board.

I did not revolutionize the strategy. Redcorsair has a few threads in the army list section where he details the thinking behind such a list. So I might not convey all the points as well as he can.

Typically people take obliterators, las predators or havocs as their heavy support. That will run you around 140 or more. Then you take your cultists. If they are outside you probably want a mob of 20. That's 90 points. Then you need the defense line and then maybe throw in a quad gun, another 100. So that's a total of 330 points not counting the dark apostle.

A unit of a land raider with cultists will be 280. It's cheaper than the fortifications/cultists/shooty unit. It has mobility if necessary and similar power output. It's also immune to small arms fire, bale flamers and smart missile systems.

This approach certainly has counters you have described, but I can just as quickly write up the counter to the aegis/cultist/apostle approach too.

Good job. You named two things that have high strength/long range fire power. Just remember that the land raiders are not the only forces in the army. Nothing exists in a vacuum in a 40k game and most units have hard counters

Lol So in your attempt to come back with a snide comment at two people who were just using some examples to make a point you've managed to let the point sail right over your head. Well done sir.

There are in fact a great many things that can and will fire at a land raider at range. It's certainly not the paper thin think that some will make it out to be, but it's still got hull points. There are a lot of things that can and will knock it out at range. Now if I've read you correctly your next response will be the always awesome "well then if they're shooting at the LR then they aren't shooting at anything else so it's totally worth it." It's not worth it and that's a waste of a ton of points. Your other response might be to .... Well here. Lets play a game. There's a really good intelligent response to this. Lets see if you know what it is.

hu..wha..are we still trying to figure out whether buy a 280 pt Lascannon to protect 90 pts worth of troops? Oh, we are? Alright later lol

Yeah, I don't know if it's worth taking a land raider for no other purpose than to protect scoring units in your backfield. That said, as a way to protect scoring units, they're not a complete waste, but the kind of scoring unit they're going protect needs to be the kind that can put out some more serious damage on their own.

Buying a land raider for cultists is silly. Buying a land raider for 10 cult-CSM isn't. Buying a land raider for abaddon and a group of terminators and then a couple more for scoring 5x melta/plasma gun squads of chosen actually sounds like a pretty good deal.

As for the OP's question, you've already got your answer - you can infiltrate with huron, or you can deepstrike with them and unload with combi-weapons at close range and then be a general pain in the butt with terminator armor. Land raiders CAN be useful for this, but I think I'd only bother in a land raider spam list, or in the very least possibly a rhino rush.

I think you're all missing the point. Bogalubov isn't advocating buying a landraider to protect your cultists. He is making an argument, that if your plan already involves buying a Heavy Support to roam your backfield and load off lascannons (Havocs/Predator), AND having a cultist blob to camp backfield objectives, THEN the Landraider/cultist combo is a better alternative.

Sure there are lots of Things able to kill a Landraider, but how many of those things killing a Landraider will have any difficulty killing the original Havoc/Predator/Cultist/Dark Apostle stuff?

Why not use one with dirge casters to dump Possessed or Berserkers into assault?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Why not use one with dirge casters to dump Possessed or Berserkers into assault?

That's a hefty amount of points right there for a unit that probably won't kill as much as an Abaddonstar.

GeneralCael wrote:
I think you're all missing the point. Bogalubov isn't advocating buying a landraider to protect your cultists. He is making an argument, that if your plan already involves buying a Heavy Support to roam your backfield and load off lascannons (Havocs/Predator), AND having a cultist blob to camp backfield objectives, THEN the Landraider/cultist combo is a better alternative.

Sure there are lots of Things able to kill a Landraider, but how many of those things killing a Landraider will have any difficulty killing the original Havoc/Predator/Cultist/Dark Apostle stuff?

Thank you, someone got the gist of what I was explaining.

As I was saying, this approach isn't unstoppable. However, it is another way of getting your lascannons/scoring units that you are taking one way or another.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, I don't know if it's worth taking a land raider for no other purpose than to protect scoring units in your backfield. That said, as a way to protect scoring units, they're not a complete waste, but the kind of scoring unit they're going protect needs to be the kind that can put out some more serious damage on their own.

Buying a land raider for cultists is silly. Buying a land raider for 10 cult-CSM isn't. Buying a land raider for abaddon and a group of terminators and then a couple more for scoring 5x melta/plasma gun squads of chosen actually sounds like a pretty good deal.

While I'm not sold on the idea myself, I think you're looking at it wrong. You are only seeing the Land Raider as an Assault Vehicle, while he's seeing it as a mobile Bunker (that trades the weaknesses of a Building for the weaknesses of a Vehicle).

10 Cultists (50pts) + Land Raider (230pts) = 280pts to secure your "home" Objective.
- vs -
20 Cultists (90pts) + ADL w/ Quad Gun (100pts) = 190pts to secure your "home" Objective.

For a Heavy Support slot and 90 points, what are we gaining?
- Cultists don't have to worry about Leadership tests
- Cultists don't have to worry about attacks that ignore cover
- Cultists don't have to worry about sneaky/fast Assault Units
- Two Twin-Linked BS 4 Lascannons + one Twin-Linked BS 4 Heavy Bolter
- Tactical flexibility (depending on the list, we can use the Land Raider as an Assault Vehicle if needed and we have the capability to Tank Shock things away from back field Objectives)

And what are we losing?
- A third Heavy Support slot
- 90 Points
- Our own 4+ Cover Save
- 4 Twin-Linked BS 3 S7 Skyfire/Interceptor shots

The second you add anything to make the Quad Gun BS 4, you are spending more points than the Land Raider option. With a Heldrake, we can just Vector Strike enemy Flyers or rely on our ground based heavy weapons to deal with them and, as you yourself have argued in the past, the stopping power of the Lascannons are a welcome boon over Autocannons for dealing with vehicles (including Flyers).

FYI, the Land Raider has a 61% chance of hitting a Zooming Flyer with a Lascannon and he won't be the only thing firing at it most likely. Not as good as the BS 3 Quad Gun at killing Flyers, but its not bad for a unit without Skyfire and is almost as good as a BS 4 Icarus Lascannon (hits 67% of the time).

Given the added protection and flexibility added, its not a bad option really. Obviously not a "must do this" kind of thing, but what you gain vs what you lose makes it well worth considering.

that's a very insightful breakdown, cowmonaut. thanks for that!

cowmonaut wrote:(stuff)

Um... Hmm...

I suppose the real thing to do is to compare the price of X scoring unit and a land raider to the price of X scoring unit and a triple-lascannon predetor. In that case, they get the same infantry, and roughly the same amount of lascannon fire. In this case, you're spending 90 points extra for the land raider, to get an assault ramp, and to protect the dudes inside (lots, rather than, in this case, making them rely on ruins cover, etc.).

Curiously enough, you can actually think of this the other way. Chaos land raiders are slightly better armored HP4 predetors that can take a 90 point upgrade that makes them scoring. And that's with cultists, you could actually make it a 75 point upgrade if you throw a naked CSM squad in there.

That still seems a little steep, though, given that 3 of the 6 mission types don't REALLY have objectives, and the land raider is already a scoring unit on the 4th.

Not unthinkable, though, I suppose.

Even with the cheaper CSM Predators I'm against taking triple Lascannons. Its just too easy to get an angle on them that makes them AV 11 and I hate seeing 140 points go up in smoke in a single turn. That said, that's just my personal preference regarding Predators.

And actually, its 5/6 missions that REALLY have objectives. Only Purge The Alien doesn't make use of objectives. Also consider you can carry the Relic onto a Land Raider; the only restriction is the Land Raider can only move 6" at a time once it has the Relic embarked on it. And when considering Big Guns Never Tire, its harder to kill a Land Raider to get a VP than a Predator, and if someone actually brings down your scoring Land Raider, it hopefully dropped off a scoring unit just before blowing up so you can still claim the objective.

On the contrary. Purge does't have objectives, the relic only has a single one that's not likely to be claimed by either player (I think I've only had one or two relic missions that ended the game with someone in control of the relic), which means it's decided by secondaries, not by objectives. Meanwhile, on Will games I don't think I've ever seen someone win on objectives. The only things I've seen are where both players plant a single tough scoring unit on their objective and it rolls over to secondaries, or both players brought enough killing power, which means that neither of the players have their objective with a scoring unit, so it rolls over onto secondaries.

Then you have Big guns, in which the land raider itself is a scoring unit, and you really only have 2 out of the 6 missions where having a unit like this is going to be all that useful. Even in these cases, they're not necessary if you roll an odd number of objectives and have first player, or if you brought enough killing power to blow your opponent off of an objective or two. Plus, even if you do manage to lose your scoring units, as is true of all the other missions, you can still win the game with a little bit of firepower, and by focusing on secondaries.

The plan fact is that you don't NEED to have a unit like this. The only thing that's tempting about it is that you get the lascannons from the raider, but spending 320 points for a pair of lascannons seems too steep to me, while spending 230 seems like it's barely within the range of tolerable.

Plus, getting back to what I was saying earlier, imagine that you had a land raider with both a scoring unit in it AND the ability to kill your opponent's scoring units? It's twice as good straight away. Being able to control a backfield objective gives you +3 points, while driving the land raider forward, disgorging the troops inside and taking an objective from your opponent gives you a relative +6 points. Even if they don't accomplish this, simply contesting an opponent's objective has the same net effect as claiming an extra one of your own.

Except you have the ability to do twice as well, and you apply ore killing power, and you're more likely to get linebreaker.

Your games of The Relic are very different to ones I've participated in. To be honest, I haven't played 'Will more than once. The dice seem to avoid it!

In any event, I think all this does for me at least is show that an ADL isn't that worthwhile (just looking at the "gains" list of using the Land Raider I had listed) but given a Bastion is only 25 points more... I'd rather just use that with a Quad Gun over the Land Raider. Now that I've walked away and come back to thinking about it anyways!

Aren't the assorted land raider variants Forgeworld churns out useable by Chaos? There's a whole slew of different configurations there to check out, no reason to limit yourself to the codex junker.