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Just sort of wondering if anyone has any thoughts/advice/ideas regarding a jetbike-centric list with the new Eldar codex. How do people feel about the Jetbike units? Synergy with characters and other stuff?

I'm thinking really hard about a list with 30 or so Wild Riders, with Warlocks and Farseers on bikes, and trying to figure out some good support units from there. Right now just fluffwise I'm thinking Nightspinners, Prisms, and Crimson Hunters....

Also, competitively speaking, anyone else think it's sort of unfair how clutch Eldrad seems to be as a Warlord for Eldar? Maybe I'm looking at it totally wrong but I feel like for his cost the utility of his redeployment, lvl4 casting, and stealth trait combined just make him absolutely too good to pass up. I find myself really wishing I could put him on a jetbike just because of the redeployment, let alone all the other stuff he does! Makes me mad.

Anyway, so, yeh....Jetbikes? How to build a list around them? Help? Discuss.

Jetbikes themselves are awesome objective holders. The points break, BS4 and rending shuriken may make them punchy enough to be the basis of an army. I will certainly be trying them out. Challenging to keep them out of assault though.

Warlocks are expensive and unreliable, but potentially huge benefits to their squad. My instinct is to leave them off the small objective-grabber squads but take them on squads of 6+. Their primaris power is a good fit for jetbikes.

Vypers seem to be useable now, prisms are still good. Shining spears have the same weaknesses but are much cheaper (as are laser lance autarchs) so may be a decent choice to add assault punch. A warlock bike council, while strong, is 50pts per model. If fortune is not rolled as a power, or is and fails to cast, then you're a points sink. Even with the buffs, 50pts each for so-so close combat attacks.

I would take an autarch in some form in any jetbike list. Use the -1 to reserves to bring flyers on after your enemy's flyers, bring small jetbike units on late in the game as possible etc.

http://www.fritz40k.com/

Good site thats well known for eldar tactics.

I'm liking jetbikes in this book. Tough and mobile with now excellent anti-infantry power (and also anti-monster).

After some experiments a Farseer should be able to get guide/doom/fortune combo VERY often with the chances of getting doom or fortune being very high depending on your needs.

Guide is less useful on a jetbike focussed force but it's 24" range so you can throw it onto the supporting Vyper Squadron.

Doom and Fortune you'll pretty much have to pick one of them to cast a turn due to being Warp Charge 2 but rerolls to wound on Catapults is great and rerolling the save on a big Jetbike squadron is amazing especially when...

Warlocks on Bikes. Warlock powers are good and it doesn't really matter which one you roll up because if they don't help you then you take the primaris which will.

Protect/Jink can either turn your Jetbikes into Terminators with a 2+ save and 5+ cover save or make 4+ armour wearers drop like flies to your Catapults as it affects the actual save not the dice rolls.

Embolden/Horrify can really leverage your ability to cause panic checks on soft units and then subsequently run them down in assault as the -3 leadership applies until your next turn. It also lets you hold on an objective at the end of the game with fearless.

Coneal is obvious really, shrouded stacks with Jink to give you a 3+ cover save, 2+ if you turbo boost. Combine with Fortune from the Farseer and nothing is going to hurt the squad when they go 48" on the last turn to grab an objective (except obviously AP3 flamers).

Reveal is useful for digging out units like Scouts from Ruins and being on a Jetbike you can get the warlock where he needs to be to cast it as it's relatively short ranged.

A big squadron of 10 can put out 3 ap2 wounds on anything with a wound value even things they could normally not wound which makes them good vs Monstrous Creatures. With Doom on the target it's even better against Toughness 8 as you get to roll the 15 hits that didn't roll a 6 again giving them the potential to drop a Wraith Knight in a single volley.

Shurikan Cannons I'm not so sure about. If you aren't in range to bring all of your 12" weapons to fire on the target you may as well flat out and get that better Jink save. Really you're paying 10 points for another shot. If you have 2 in a squad then that could have been a Scatter Laser or Brightlance somewhere else which would be a better use of the points.

EDIT: There is a reason to take Cannons. With the rule that you can't kill what you can't reach the presence of a cannon in the squadron means you can hover on the very edge of your 12" catapult range and still kills models out to 24" away so you can make the most of the Eldar Jetbike assault move to get out of charge/rapidfire range.

I've not looked at Jetbike Autarchs yet but Jetbike Farseer is still good. I wouldn't run a full Seer Council on Jetbikes anymore and instead dole them out as squadron leaders on the big squads (minimum 9 bikes imo to merit a Warlock).

I'd still consider double Farseer HQs, one with Runes of Fate and the other taking Divination.

EDIT: Remember that Eldar Jetbikes always get a 2D6" move in the assault phase even if they shoot or turbo boost. This makes it much easier to keep them out of assault and rapid fire range. I'm not sure why Windriders are listed as having Battle Sense because on a Jetbike you will never use it. I assume it's just out of a sense of completeness because if you could shoot/turbo or turbo/shoot it would make them ridiculous so it can't possibly be the intention.

Thanks for the replies.

Rob, sounds like you're thinking sort of on the same lines as me for the core of the force. Thanks for all the input!

One thing I'm really not so sure about is how to build good, solid support around a core of a couple large bike squads with locks and seers. What would be the most efficient choices for anti-armour, flyers, general fire support?

I think I like Nightspinners and Prisms in Heavy as fire support that fits well in the mold of a Saim-Hann army, and my initial thought in fast is Crimson Hunters, but I'm not totally sold on them. Things like Warwalkers are definitely good but I don't like the feel of them in the army, and I feel like maybe Spiders and Scorpions and Hawks are sort of redundant once I've got all these bikes on the table (I mean, none of them is really a stand-out anti-vehicle unit, I've already theoretically got loads of anti-infantry....).

I don't know. Any thoughts about what to take around the bikes?

Anti vehicle I think is well supplied by Fire Prisms (who are awesomely versatile now) and Vyper Squads with Bright Lances.

for 140 points you can get a Prism with holo field (it will be a priority target so that +1 to cover saves will help especially if it is using ruins to hide). It can deal with MeQ, TeQ and AV 14. I'd take two of them if I have no infantry and no use for Falcons.

180 points will get you a full Vyper squad with 3 Bright Lances. I know from experience that AV10 isn't an issue as I run Landspeeder Squadrons in my marine forces and they do incredibly well. You don't lose all of the firepower to a single penetrating hit like you can with a Prism.

I don't think it's worth putting holos on the Vypers as they start costing too much. Your jetbikes can screen the Vypers from assaults and rapid fire weapons. Losing one of the squadron only loses you one BL so the risk is spread out. 3 BL shots with Guide on a Doomed vehicle will pulverise it. Without Guide and Doom they'll still hurt reliably.

Swooping Hawks with Haywire grenades can wreak havoc and reliably wreck vehicles in close combat rather than explode them. They can take down Dreadnoughts and other walkers in close combat as they get to strike before them and unlike Fire Dragons who have nothing to do if your opponent only brought infantry they can still contribute with Lasblasters and Grenade Packs. They are also good for contesting objectives that even your bikes may not be able to reach (which is unlikely with a potential 60" movement).

I just like the models though so I try and use them whenever I can.

Crimson Hunters are good at anti-tank and anti-flyer. The Hemlock is much better at Anti-Horde, TEQ and Monsters (I'm still not sure how to build mine yet).

I'm planning on some Hunters to help deal with Necrons, which are pretty common in my group, boo. Without them I'm not sure I have anything to really handle flyers. They'll be great against Drakes as well of course so that's important.

Here's a list I just made up, pretty basic but hits most of the points you've made I think/hope.

EDIT: It comes to 1848 total.

HQ: Farseer (Jetbike)
HQ: Farseer (Jetbike)
HQ: 4 Warlocks (Jetbikes)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
FA: Crimson Hunter
FA: Crimson Hunter
HS: Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
HS: Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
HS: Nightspinner (Holo Fields)

The Nightspinner is there to deal with gunlines, especially Tau, who I sort of feel could be a problem for a bike-based army that might end up relying heavily on cover (depending on psychic power generation). Most of the other stuff I've mentioned I think?

orkdom wrote:
I'm planning on some Hunters to help deal with Necrons, which are pretty common in my group, boo. Without them I'm not sure I have anything to really handle flyers. They'll be great against Drakes as well of course so that's important.

Here's a list I just made up, pretty basic but hits most of the points you've made I think/hope.

HQ: Farseer (Jetbike)
HQ: Farseer (Jetbike)
HQ: 4 Warlocks (Jetbikes)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
Troops: 9 Guardian Jetbikes (1 Shurikan Cannon)
FA: Crimson Hunter
FA: Crimson Hunter
HS: Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
HS: Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
HS: Nightspinner (Holo Fields)

The Nightspinner is there to deal with gunlines, especially Tau, who I sort of feel could be a problem for a bike-based army that might end up relying heavily on cover (depending on psychic power generation). Most of the other stuff I've mentioned I think?

I really like your list. Very clean, and gets the job done!

Maybe make 2 of them 6 man? with 2 more 3 man t max troops and have some smaller backfield holders.

Why would you only run 1 Cannon in each unit? That list will run into huge issues against some armies because it really only has anti infantry punch inside of 12", and even with the jump back move fast assault units will still catch you (you can't expect to kill everything in one burst, look at Flesh Hound spam for example). Cannons make the unit much more flexible for only 10pts each, against faster armies you can get into the 24" range band and chip away at things before you have to commit to the 12" burst. It also means you have a huge advantage over armies which rely on the 24" range band to do damage at all, Grey Knights for example will at the very least be forced to move (halving the effectiveness of Psycannons) and if you roll well you jump completely out of their range. But yeah as suggested above I would split some of those units up. I'm thinking of running 2 x 9 with Warlocks for the Farseers to join, and then the rest 6 man with 2 Cannons (not having the Warlocks makes them way cheaper).

I'm not sure about Crimson Hunters tbh, although they are much more viable with 2 Farseers (or Farseer/Autarch) so you can control when they come in (going for Scriers Gaze). I was thinking of running 1 just to take out priority targets, they only really run into issues against IG/Crons but should drop a flier per turn if they get to shoot. It also limits the number of Spiders or Shining Spears you run, if you are focused on up close shooting then Spiders hit harder than Bikes with better mobility (Warp Jump is faster than a Bike move, then D6" Run with a reroll and 2D6" jump back on top of that) and Spears are actually cheap enough to be considered as a counterpunch unit.

9-strong shining spear squads could be a devastating CC component of a jetbike based army.

Powerguy:
Thanks for the input. I get what you're saying about the Cannons in the jetbike squads, but keep in mind I've also got 3 ordnance templates in this list, two of which are AP3. That gives me some good long-range options against a lot of foot-based armies out there and means I don't necessarily have to just rush in and risk all my bikes from the get-go. I have those tanks to soften stuff like that up.

I had thought up a list that was 2x9 and 4x3 jet bikes with a couple other changes. I'm not personally too keen on 3-bike unit just because I'm not impressed on paper with what they can accomplish aside from objective grabbing but if/when I get this army going I'd definitely want to try it out both ways and see how they feel. Seems like a lot of people recommend MSU jetbikes and they've definitely got a few perks.

Crimson Hunters are really the only way this list has to deal with Flying Daemon Spam/Cron Air/Flyrants. To me that makes them feel more important than Spiders or Spears just because they do something that is a) very important and b) not done by anything else in the list. I'm not really sure what other option I might have where flyers are concerned unless I include stuff like Reapers and Walkers which just don't feel right to me in a Saim-Hann list. (Plus I sort of just think the eldar tanks look cool and I want some.)

So maybe give the 2x9+4x3 list a shot too and move from there? There's other stuff like Laughing God Autarchs that are mentioned in other threads, I don't know if I want them though. I feel like Farseers enhance the core of this lists the most no matter how you spin it, Hunters look like a must (to me) for AA, so there's just "to MSU or not to MSU" with the core jetbikes and maybe some fiddling around in HS....

Only thing I'd still like to see myself getting at some point are some Vypers but I don't know how they fit in (at 1850) where there isn't something else more versatile/durable/capable of handling whatever they're task ends up being.... Probably I'd go 3 BL if I took them. But, I sort of feel like 5 Shurikan Cannons and 1 Scatter Laser is really the best bang for you buck on Vypers? That unit just doesn't seem necessary at all in this list.

Well anyway. Seems like it's mostly down to the question of MSU.

Guardian Jetbike squads are pretty under-costed. I'm expecting they'll become the new trendy troop choice amongst competitive Eldar players.

Rob451 wrote:

After some experiments a Farseer should be able to get guide/doom/fortune combo VERY often with the chances of getting doom or fortune being very high depending on your needs.

How do you figure that?

I built a very similar list -
Farseer on bike
4x warlock on bikes
5x harlequins w/ shadowseer and kisses
4x6 jetbikes with 2 cannons
3x10 spiders
3x wraithlord dual BL & sword

Farseer joins harlies, or jumps into jetbike/spider squad at need. Push wraithlords down the other player's throat, and keep spiders + bikes in reserves as much as possible. Spiders DS and abuse run&shoot plus jet move to spread out, and lay down some pain on tougher things like light vehicles or flyers. Jetbikes just try to stay alive for objectives, if any of the CC buffs are gotten you just swap for primaris on the warlocks. Harlies are a house for the farseer and can also go threaten lone objective campers or something vulnerable.

While the Wraithlords aren't quite Saim-Hann, they provide a nice anchor and tarpit against faster units that you can't afford chasing the rest of your army. They also help against hordes with their flamers, or heavy tanks using the BL's.

 Blaggard wrote:

Rob451 wrote:

After some experiments a Farseer should be able to get guide/doom/fortune combo VERY often with the chances of getting doom or fortune being very high depending on your needs.

How do you figure that?

Edit: blah I was applying how you roll for spells in fantasy to rolling powers in 40k making the below invalid as they are actually different.

When you roll for your powers you roll all the dice at once and in the event of a double you can pick which power replaces it. With 3 dice the chances of a double are good which makes it much easier to get your preferred powers.

Out of twenty test rolls I ended up with guide/doom, guide/fortune or guide/doom/fortune on 18 of them. I might be wrong as I'm kinda tired and my brain isn't behaving but I think there are only 4 results that will prevent you getting one of the 3 desired power combinations due to how doubles work.

Jetbike spam will be a thing. They are really really good. Back them up with some Fire Prisms and Warwalkers with AA missiles for a solid all comers core to a list.

Rob451 wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Rob451 wrote:

After some experiments a Farseer should be able to get guide/doom/fortune combo VERY often with the chances of getting doom or fortune being very high depending on your needs.

How do you figure that?

Edit: blah I was applying how you roll for spells in fantasy to rolling powers in 40k making the below invalid as they are actually different.

When you roll for your powers you roll all the dice at once and in the event of a double you can pick which power replaces it. With 3 dice the chances of a double are good which makes it much easier to get your preferred powers.

Out of twenty test rolls I ended up with guide/doom, guide/fortune or guide/doom/fortune on 18 of them. I might be wrong as I'm kinda tired and my brain isn't behaving but I think there are only 4 results that will prevent you getting one of the 3 desired power combinations due to how doubles work.

Yeah, if it were like Fantasy that'd be abusable (to the extent that it's abusable in fantasy, actually).
The way it see it you have a 1/30 chance of getting all 3 at best, 1/180 at worse.