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I think he meant 48% for the charge from Deep Strike with rerolls. It isn't terrible odds, but for a unit like Warp Talons they're too expensive for that.

Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -

NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY

What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?

They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.

For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).

Maulerfiends aren't terrible, though they aren't great. The hit to the Magna Cutters really did them in for me, though to be fair those models I made aren't in existence anymore so it shouldn't matter Haha

Niiru wrote:
Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -

NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY

What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?

They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.

For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).

Possesed are my favourite units to play just for fun. Honestly I like any CSM unit that has a daemon keyword because I like the various interactions you can come up with.

For example, the warp talons mentioned above; World Eater talons with prescience, VotLW and a nearby Crimson crown herald can end up with 5-6 S5 -2ap attacks rerolling wounds. It's a lot of work to make an expensive unit almost competitive, but it's fun

Primortus wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -

NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY

What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?

They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.

For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).

Possesed are my favourite units to play just for fun. Honestly I like any CSM unit that has a daemon keyword because I like the various interactions you can come up with.

For example, the warp talons mentioned above; World Eater talons with prescience, VotLW and a nearby Crimson crown herald can end up with 5-6 S5 -2ap attacks rerolling wounds. It's a lot of work to make an expensive unit almost competitive, but it's fun

How do you get to 5-6 attacks?

Warp Talons = 1
Lightning Claws = 1
World Eaters = 1
Crimson Crown = +1 if they get a 6 to wound

...and that's all I could find, other than the Champion I guess who gets an extra attack. But it's still mostly 3 attacks, with a very rare 4th attack (that I can see anyway).

Still not bad, with -2AP should mulch through some loyalist scum.

Death to the false emperor. With VotLW and prescience you're getting an extra attack on a 5+ to hit and a 5+ to wound. So 5 attacks.

Primortus wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.

Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?

Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.

My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.

Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.

Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.

Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.

Locus of rage does affect warp talons, everything from the daemon codex does except for the stratagems.

Also the chance of making a 9 inch charge is 25% or 44% with rerolls, not 58%

Thanks for both the info and the math correction.

Niiru wrote:
Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -

NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY

What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?

They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.

For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).

I'm quoting my own post here, because I want new people to still read it an answer it as our fun/interesting post for the day (was tempted to put it in it's own thread on the general forum tbh, as too many people focus on competitive units instead of fun units on Dakka!).

But I also have an actual tactical question on Cultists. How are people fielding them?

I'm back and forth between Alpha Legion and Death Guard at the moment as my Legion Trait. For Death Guard, it would seem Autoguns and Stubbers are the best loadout, because of the 18" rapid fire range and not losing accuracy when moving. But what about for Alpha Legion units, whether backfield defenders or an infiltrated blob? Are autoguns still the better option, or is the pistols + extra attack in melee more useful? In which case I guess flamers instead of stubbers?

I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.

Yeh, for DG it would be like ... Three units of 10 cultists or something, but if I go Alpha it would be a single big unit of 30+. The question was, for Alpha, would it be better to go for Autoguns or Pistols + the extra attack in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.

mostly cultist spam lists works with Abby already on the table giving fearless+re roll to 120-160 cultists, waste ds him turn 2, some lists if they start 1st evaporate most of your screens in the meanwhile you wait Abby.

I'll second starting Abaddon on the table, no point in watching your cultist screen get eviscerated while he's not on the table. He moves 6" so why not footslog him.
As far as fun units that aren't competitive for me it has to be the helldrake such a cool model, just wish it's attacks weren't so blunt it's just really disappointing. Bit it still looks great and I'm reasonably happy wasting 190 points on it because it's fun to use...

I won't deny that luck played a part, but Warptiming a Heldrake and throwing all the buffs & stratagems on it did assassinate Njal Stormcaller for me in a friendly on T1

What buffs and strats, I only ever put daemonforge on it? I really want my heldrake to be usable. Just not enough attacks to do significant damage.

Abaddon303 wrote:
What buffs and strats, I only ever put daemonforge on it? I really want my heldrake to be usable. Just not enough attacks to do significant damage.

the hellturkey ?

Basically you pay over 100 pts for a unit with a glorfied flamer or a hades autocannon that only hits on 5+.
Additionally it can't ignore armor up to and including 3+ anymore with the flamer. It also does not get the -1 to hit to my knowledge therefore it is also fragile.

Basically why not buy a dakkafiend?

If you really want to use it, you probalby need alot more CP for it then it is worth it, since technically you could use blasphemus machines aswell as daemonforge, both stratagems that could aid it, but then you might want to not take the flammer and instead use the hades autocannon.
If you take the Hadesautocannon might aswell stand still with it since it can do that and use it as an elevated gun platform, however i doubt that 163 pts are good spent in such a way. Or you throw down your gunline there and put aby close to it or any other CSM lord to further improve your shooting. Prescience is also an option however there are better targets mostlikely.

Of course you could do daemons shenanigans with it, especially khorne could have some nice effects for it but you need an herald with an relic.
Other then this i can't think of anyway you could make it viable.

It's such a shame. A couple of small tweaks would make it work much better. Maybe 2D6 on the flamer or -2 on the claws.
Actually I feel like it should punish troops more, so double the attacks but only 1D instead of D3 would help.

Abaddon303 wrote:
It's such a shame. A couple of small tweaks would make it work much better. Maybe 2D6 on the flamer or -2 on the claws.
Actually I feel like it should punish troops more, so double the attacks but only 1D instead of D3 would help.

Not even that: 2d6 equals around 7 hits. Against infantry (take guardsmen as exemple) you will atleast roll one 1 to wound ergo 6 hits, now at -1 only another dude would survive, which leads to 5 dead.
5 dead guardsmen are 20 pts. (To just get the points back on troops and with potential moral casualites you'd need to kill of 5 squads of Guardsmen.

Even worse against spacemarines: Against those you only wound on 3+ (2/3rd of the time) again 7 hits: 5 wounds: 2.5 now get saved. so let's be nice and round up to 3 dead marines: 39 pts.

If anything the whole thing needs to get an inate ability to ignore negatives to hit from moving: and a doubling in the output of dakka of all weapons at that pricepoint.

I meant double the attacks with the claws on top of the 2D6 flamer. You'd have a decent chance of taking out an MSU of space marines then, but yeh you're right, it needs a complete overhaul really to make it competitive.
It's still a decent distraction to tie up a tank and help your rhinos cross the board unscathed but at almost 200pts it's an expensive sacrificial lamb...

In my experience, the only way ive made warp talons truly work is deepstriking an HQ near a unit of them, or two units if I really need it to pop off. Against gunline armies with heavy overwatch, warp talons are vital to my khorne army, and save my bacon on more than one occasion.

The search tool didnt get me an answer.

Can i use Fabius Bile ability on Cultist and use Tide of Traitors with them in the first turn, to infiltrate with "modified" cultists in the first turn?

I though i could but im not shure with the new FAQs.

Abaddon303 wrote:
What buffs and strats, I only ever put daemonforge on it? I really want my heldrake to be usable. Just not enough attacks to do significant damage.

Pretty much everything.

The mission was Big Guns Never Tire, Hammer & Anvil, against a Spartan full of Wulfen & a Bastion full of Long Fangs with my own Daemon Engines / Slaanesh Vanguard army. Extremely dangerous matchup - most of the objectives were in her DZ, and I had to get my stompy stuff over there, running a 48” gauntlet to get there, forfeiting a VP every single time a Defiler or Maulerfiend died to her 12 Lascannons and 3 Krak Missiles. I deployed 49” away, but she got first turn, and Spartan edged forwards to kneecap my KoS.

So, I surged forwards, and in my psychic phase I spent a CP on a Familiar to switch Death Hex out for Diabolic Strength, having goaded my opponent into perceiving my Heldrake as an early disruptor but no T1 Assassin by not starting with a melee buff spell and deploying in like the opposite corner. I gave Drakey Diabolic Strength (essential, would have CRR’d) and Prescience (important, but would not have CRR’d) and Delightful Agonies (nice to have, to subsequently bullet sponge as a distraction Carnifex, but would not have CRR’d), then Warptime (essential, did CRR). With its movement of 30”, I had deployed so far away from Njal that it didn’t register as a T1 threat to be solidly screened against, and I could cast from outside of the coverage of Njal’s formidable DTW to ‘castle’ it into checkmate.

Then, it incinerated four Intercessors (the survivor ran away to morale). D2 has its advantages if 2W (or FNP) stuff is a thing in your meta (though I absolutely agree with the above comment that twice as many D1 shots would be far better). This cleared some of the space for its base if it charged Njal from like 8” away.

Then, it charged Njal, I think using a CRR to get there.

In the fight, it was hitting and wounding on 2’s but I used Daemonforge anyway as I needed to keep a CRR up my sleeve for damage rolls. Worth it - had to reroll a couple dice. After my opponent’s own CRR, she had failed two saves. After my own CRR on 2D3 damage, Njal was dead.

Won’t deny that luck was on my side (though when it crashlanded in her turn, Njal left with 1W would still have died), but that decapitated her own lynchpin who was not only providing strong DTW against my two Sorcerers but also an aura of cover & -1 to be hit (Oblits would not have appreciated that later on). It’s own death was fine - it meant one less turn of shooting at my Defilers, one of which later on got a touchdown against her Spartan. (With help from a cheeky Fiend of Slaanesh telling the Spartan it wasn’t allowed to fall back. Seriously, those things are hilarious.)

I don’t think I’d have won if I hadn’t assassinated Njal. My mid game buffs & late game Smites were instrumental in reaching & cracking those hard targets bristling with lascannons in a bad matchup for my army.

If your opponent’s key support character isn’t a 6W Terminator and their army isn’t a horde able to thoroughly deny landing sites, it’s a pretty viable sniper in friendlies.

Hmm yeh nice. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the gamble of getting off diabolic strength then warptime. It's all a bit of a punt to be honest but worth it in a friendly like you say just for the lolz.

I started testing my mega cultist spam list with ITC rules against a competitive Eldar soup list. Triple dissie ravagers, doom/jinx skyrunners, dark reapers, wave serpent, archon, 6 venoms, the works, etc. We only got a little bit into T2 before my opponent wanted to pause the game and put it on hold. I'm not sure he really wants to come back to this because I imagine the first turn was pretty demoralizing.

Initial thoughts:

200x cultists infiltrating into rapid fire range is a ridiculous amount of dakka.

120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 1 + VOTLW.

Your opponent will nearly max out or max out Reaper on T1.

Weight of fire actually kills a lot of stuff. I managed to inflict 4 wounds on the wave serpent, kill 1 venom and the 5 kabalites inside, and nearly kill a 2nd venom had he not rolled a 6 on his last FNP roll. Also killed a squad of -2 to hit Alaitoc rangers. -1 to hit penalties and heavy armor literally don't matter when you're firing hundreds of shots. Some will always go through.

The most forward units should be a trio of Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh so you can maximize your buff spells and disincentivize your opponent from shooting the biggest threats.

With full doom, jinx, and guide, his whole army was only able to eliminate around 60 cultists on T1, roughly a squad and a half.

Conversely, I nearly wiped out 1/3 of his main anti-horde potential (2 out of 6 venoms) on T1.

He will be spending 3CP every turn to vect tide of traitors. Once he's out of CP, the Dark Reapers die.

All of the enemy heavy weapons are hilariously ineffective. This list invalidates a huge portion of the enemy list so you're really only fighting whatever percentage of their army is anti-horde.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Hmm yeh nice. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the gamble of getting off diabolic strength then warptime. It's all a bit of a punt to be honest but worth it in a friendly like you say just for the lolz.

Yeah, it was a gamble. Had to try something extraordinary to run the gauntlet! I can see it being most useful in a TS Daemonkin list. Get a bunch of Sorcerers with free rerolls off a changecaster and stacked buffs become a lot more interesting.

barboggo wrote:
He will be spending 3CP every turn to vect tide of traitors. Once he's out of CP, the Dark Reapers die.

Do we actually know if having it Vect'd resets the "Once per game" errata on Tide of Traitors?

barboggo wrote:

120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 2 + VOTLW.

Wait, you don't get the double shots with rapid fire if you're advancing do you?

Abaddon303 wrote:

barboggo wrote:

120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 2 + VOTLW.

Wait, you don't get the double shots with rapid fire if you're advancing do you?

Correct, if you advance your weapon changes from Rapid Fire 1 to Assault 1. So you only get the 1 shot, but that's 1 more shot then you would have had.

Ok that's cool, I thought I'd been playing it wrong! When I first read the rule I thought it was better than it actually is and was disappointed that you wouldn't be in a situation where advancing into rapid fire range would be worthwhile. In reality I very rarely use it, the -1 and single shot just isn't worth it generally...

How are people equipping their Lords and Sorcerers?

I'm thinking that Jump Pack + Blade of Hydra is the better combo for Alpha Legion (Jump Pack + Murder Sword for other legions maybe). Not sure whether to give him a Plasma Pistol or a combi-weapon though...

Jump Pack seems fine, as the Terminator Armour just makes him slow even though he has a 4++ either way.

Sorcerer could maybe be worthwhile in Terminator Armour as they don't have an invulnerable save as standard...

Steeds of Slaanesh are doing well for me. Charges after Advances, large footprint to shout at friendly units, +1W, +1A, situational synergy with Daemons. Only major limitation is unable to climb a ladder, but that can’t be covered by more conventional foot units


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If your Sorcerer is in a situation where it wishes it has 2+/5++ then something’s going wrong with your battle plan. TDA is a ball and chain on such a unit, which wants to be picking targets to buff or hex or MW and avoiding beatsticks. If it needs to have an invuln, put it on a disc - though I prefer a Steed of Slaanesh for an extra wound to survive bad luck with the Warp.