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I was wondering what was better, the most fearsome warship the the imperial navy has or the most terrorifing warship in the space marine arsenal. Both warships are fearsome in there own right but I would like to know which are better at the following
1. Combat (against each other)
2. Depolyment of onboard armies
3. Maneuverability

ok by the numbers

1. Battleship is better ship to ship..its what its designed to do

2. Battlebarge is better..landing troops is what its designed to do.

3. Same..they are both big and clumsy.

What if the battle barge and battleship were combined? Would it be an unstoppable force that no one can oppose

 Cypherus wrote:
What if the battle barge and battleship were combined? Would it be an unstoppable force that no one can oppose

Then you have a baby space hulk

Realistically in the 40k setting each is optimized for what it does, and reflects the top end of imperial warship designs, with a few unique examples that have not been given the BFG treatment..and now due to GW decisions never will.

You'll have to be more specific than "Battleship"

In Battle Fleet Gothic, there are no less than 6 different kinds of Battleship class vessels in the Imperial navy.

A Battlebarge is itself a battleship class vessel.

In game, a Battlebarge is more than capable of holding its own against an Emperor, Oberon, or an Apocalypse class Battleship. Its probably slightly outclassed by a Retribution class. And a Battlebarge could easily take on any of the Grand Cruisers.


Also, Imperial Navy warships don't transport troops usually. That's done by specialized Transport ships. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy_Vessels_%28List%29#Transports

The largest of which is the Universe Class Mass Conveyer. 12 kilometers long and capable of carrying half a million guardsmen.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Universe_Class_Mass_Conveyor#.UbNjI5z_dPs



As for maneuverability, both a pretty terrible. Navy Battleships can move either 15 or 20cm in BFG, depending on the class. Battlebarges can move 20cm, so slightly faster than the others. They can't turn any faster though, both being limited to only one 45 degree turn after moving 15cm and not being able to use the "Come to a new heading" order.

The Retribution is probably the scariest thing a Battle Barge could face as it has more weapons and more shields - although generally all Imperial battleships have a superior weapons range, which means that in most cases the BB would take a beating before it could close the distance.

Neither ship is likely to travel alone, though, so fleet tactics can affect a lot here as well.

Of course.

A Battlebarge would have to cross the T at close range to get an optimal salvo off. And preferably have another ship down the Rets shields first before pumping those bombardment cannons into it.


Which reminds me, I need to get a Retribution battleship for my next Venerable Battlebarge.

A battlebarge isn't designed for the same thing a battleship is desgined for. They are both formidable ships in their own right but the battleship is likely a superior craft.
That said, SM can be damn good at fleet engagements...

 Cypherus wrote:
What if the battle barge and battleship were combined? Would it be an unstoppable force that no one can oppose

You get the Eternal Crusader or, going bigger, the Phalanx.

Battlebarge would also come out top at ship to ship engagements with bonuses for space marines I believe.

Only if boarding is involved. Otherwise its really down to the tactics.


The Navy wants to keep the BB at arms length. The BB wants to close quickly and get point blank shots in while also engaging in boarding actions and teliport attacks.

The apocalypse would be better than the retribution against a battlebarge, due to the 6+ armour that they are facing. The apocalypse would be able to stay at range and use its long range, as long as it didn't overload the power relays.

Really though, I would expect the battlebarge to win, as it would just board and use thunderhawks/boarding torps to disable the battleship. However, if both ships had sufficient fleet support then the Navy would win. IN is supposed to be used en mass, they are bad when used individually. Space marines, however, are pretty poor at proper fleet engagements. They are far better suited to boarding actions and planetary assaults.

Assuming it could actually get in range to board to begin with, which isn't a guarantee against an Imperial battleship.

A couple lock on turns at range before the Battlebarge can use most of its firepower will likely cause several structure points of damage, and maybe a critical or two, those 3 long range lances are nasty once the shields are dropped, and if the Barge is doing all ahead full, it won't be able to brace for impact, in a one on one duel I am for the Battleship..as per BFG rules.

Although in fluff..who knows, its gw, one minute a Battlebarge can destroy a entire chaos armada solo, the next one fighter ramming into its bridge can make it crash into a giant space station..its however they want it to be.

I think the trend GW is heading these days will see them having the battle barge win out despite the above BFG rules. GW can't seem to stand the Space Marines losing to normal humans, and so battle barges in some of the BL novels seem to be creeping up to battleship or beyond battleship in combat capability. I see it as much the same phenomenon as some Space Marine players trying to argue for a Space Marine Titan. The unwillingness to have Space Marines NOT have something that others have.

Iracundus wrote:
I think the trend GW is heading these days will see them having the battle barge win out despite the above BFG rules. GW can't seem to stand the Space Marines losing to normal humans, and so battle barges in some of the BL novels seem to be creeping up to battleship or beyond battleship in combat capability. I see it as much the same phenomenon as some Space Marine players trying to argue for a Space Marine Titan. The unwillingness to have Space Marines NOT have something that others have.

Care to cite any examples?

I can't think of any books where battlebarges dominate Imperial Navy ships or entire enemy armadas or battleship class vessels. They're often capable of bulling their way through the enemy and taking a lot of damage but that's what they're designed for.

 rems01 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I think the trend GW is heading these days will see them having the battle barge win out despite the above BFG rules. GW can't seem to stand the Space Marines losing to normal humans, and so battle barges in some of the BL novels seem to be creeping up to battleship or beyond battleship in combat capability. I see it as much the same phenomenon as some Space Marine players trying to argue for a Space Marine Titan. The unwillingness to have Space Marines NOT have something that others have.

Care to cite any examples?

I can't think of any books where battlebarges dominate Imperial Navy ships or entire enemy armadas or battleship class vessels. They're often capable of bulling their way through the enemy and taking a lot of damage but that's what they're designed for.

In the HH novel 'Legion' the 2 Alpha legion Battlebarges destroy the whole imperial fleet (though they were un-prepared) IIRC

 Warp Angels wrote:

 rems01 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I think the trend GW is heading these days will see them having the battle barge win out despite the above BFG rules. GW can't seem to stand the Space Marines losing to normal humans, and so battle barges in some of the BL novels seem to be creeping up to battleship or beyond battleship in combat capability. I see it as much the same phenomenon as some Space Marine players trying to argue for a Space Marine Titan. The unwillingness to have Space Marines NOT have something that others have.

Care to cite any examples?

I can't think of any books where battlebarges dominate Imperial Navy ships or entire enemy armadas or battleship class vessels. They're often capable of bulling their way through the enemy and taking a lot of damage but that's what they're designed for.

In the HH novel 'Legion' the 2 Alpha legion Battlebarges destroy the whole imperial fleet (though they were un-prepared) IIRC

HH Battle-barges were more powerful than their modern equivalents, it's not until after the Heresy that there's limits placed on what weapons they're allowed to have (for the same reason that they split up the Legions; force decentralisation).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

HH Battle-barges were more powerful than their modern equivalents, it's not until after the Heresy that there's limits placed on what weapons they're allowed to have (for the same reason that they split up the Legions; force decentralisation).

Source please.

I have not read anywhere that the HH era barges were bigger and more awesomer than the ones currently used by the chapters, in fact many of them date back to that time ( such as the ones used by traitor legions that surely have not allowed a downgrade to make the empire happy.)
From what I remember the Marines surrendered their proper space warships (battleships, and cruisers) to the imperial navy, and kept all of their invasion oriented ships, and some escorts.

But people can always pull the "everything was better in the HH era card for any marine thingy"

Yeah, that "everything was better in the horus heresy" is part of the many, many things that make the HH era stories kind of dull and boring.

Yup, I liked it when the HH was just ancient myth and the future was the way forward..but GW prefers backwards advances.

I am completely the opposite - I like most of the new stuff Especially if it helps us get a proper AM army lsit in the end

re the OP - its 40K it depends.... but in a straight fight the Battleship is going to have the edge unless the terrain or other factors allow the barge to get into close range where its bombardment cannons come into play and boarding actions are possible. BFG Armada even has a except assessing the Navy/Astartes which confirms this - more or less.

HH era warships are bigger and badder as the Imperium was in its golden age and could spend the resources to equip its forces with the best. The later Imperium and Astartes are different and require different solutions - of which the Battle Barge and Strike Crusiers are a really effective way of using Astartes.

rems01 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:I think the trend GW is heading these days will see them having the battle barge win out despite the above BFG rules. GW can't seem to stand the Space Marines losing to normal humans, and so battle barges in some of the BL novels seem to be creeping up to battleship or beyond battleship in combat capability. I see it as much the same phenomenon as some Space Marine players trying to argue for a Space Marine Titan. The unwillingness to have Space Marines NOT have something that others have.

Care to cite any examples?
I can't think of any books where battlebarges dominate Imperial Navy ships or entire enemy armadas or battleship class vessels. They're often capable of bulling their way through the enemy and taking a lot of damage but that's what they're designed for.

Not sure if this counts as the record of the space battle isn't very detailed, but in the 2E SoB Codex (of all sorts) there's a story blurb about some Space Wolf ships taking on the full might of the Segmentum Pacificus battlefleet - and winning.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Yup, I liked it when the HH was just ancient myth and the future was the way forward..but GW prefers backwards advances.

Fortunately, the way the franchise is handled at least allows me to continue treating it like an ancient myth.
Don't some of the books even deliberately contradict each other, kind of reinforcing this notion?

There are very few things in the galaxy as dangerous as a Space Marine Battle Barge within Bombardment Cannon range. If the Battle Barge gets in close I'd give it to the Battle Barge.

Question; which is bigger, badder and Exterminatus-y?

Im voting for that one

Seriously, that ship gets bored and fires a cyclonic, goodbye advesary

 Lynata wrote:

Don't some of the books even deliberately contradict each other, kind of reinforcing this notion?

No.

 IHateNids wrote:
Question; which is bigger, badder and Exterminatus-y?

Im voting for that one

Seriously, that ship gets bored and fires a cyclonic, goodbye WEAK advesary

Fixed that for you.

I played alot of BFG. I played Necrons. Imperials ain't got nothin' on us.

 IHateNids wrote:
Question; which is bigger, badder and Exterminatus-y?

Im voting for that one

Seriously, that ship gets bored and fires a cyclonic, goodbye advesary

Battle Barges. Exterminatus is usually carried out by Space Marines first when all things are equal.

Ok my vote goes for BB

@DeffDred: Obviously we are the best, we just werent involved in the topic

I've read stories about Terminators teleporting aboard bridges to kill all the command crew and all that.

My question here is what, uh, exactly stops them from doing that all the time?