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OK Folks I have to admit that I am having trouble with Riptides. The NOVA Shield is giving me fits. I am currently playing Imp Guard. There is a guy (WAAC) I play fairly often who always fields 3 of them. I am considering adding some Grey Knights allies to the Imp Guard. How do you deal with these things, and other things with 3++ Saves?

Something durable, with good strength and close combat. Monstrous creatures and the like
-Carnifexes
-Daemon Princes
-Dreadknights

I personally field two, and have a brutal outcome. But all those points are either put to waste or just stalled while locked in Combat.

If you're IG, try rushing in some cheap infantry to keep them busy in CC.

Nova shield isn't quite that great. He has to pull off a 3+ to turn it on and then gets his 3+ save with it assuming he decides to use it.

With guard, the virtual immunity to S 3 means you can't expect to flood him out with troop shots, but it does give you the option to field a metric buttload of Lascannons.

If the nova shield is up it takes 18 las cannon hits to kill a Riptide, but only 9 if the shield is down (not modified by the Stimulant Injector). So spam Lascannons, focus fire on one riptide at a time, take advantage of any time the shield is down and away they go.

The other option is dealing with his troops. He's put 600+ points into non scoring models just from those thee riptide alone. Tau have notoriously fragile troops with bad leadership. Hit them hard and he won't be able to score.

Jefffar wrote:
Nova shield isn't quite that great. He has to pull off a 3+ to turn it on and then gets his 3+ save with it assuming he decides to use it.

With guard, the virtual immunity to S 3 means you can't expect to flood him out with troop shots, but it does give you the option to field a metric buttload of Lascannons.

If the nova shield is up it takes 18 las cannon hits to kill a Riptide, but only 9 if the shield is down (not modified by the Stimulant Injector). So spam Lascannons, focus fire on one riptide at a time, take advantage of any time the shield is down and away they go.

The other option is dealing with his troops. He's put 600+ points into non scoring models just from those thee riptide alone. Tau have notoriously fragile troops with bad leadership. Hit them hard and he won't be able to score.

Uhhh, I don't think that this topic has anything to do with preventing a Tau player from "finding love."

Darn you Pouncy, there you go taking my Exalts again!

I'll weigh in on this, Nova Shield is probably the worst way to use the nova reactor, because you're essentially getting the same level of protection you already had (from a "number of shots that get through" perspective I mean), while not providing you any more dakka. At least Boost can be used as a GTFO if something deep strikes next to you (and I used it to that effect last game. nothing like watching a Riptide scooting 15" straight backwards in the assault phase holding its hands above its head and hollering "whoopwhoopwhoop" ala Zoidberg.)

I'd say pick something with a high rate of fire and a strength that can reliably wound it and say "frag the armor save". Assault cannon spam might just be the way to bring the giant down (reference, it takes 60 autocannon hits to bring a riptide down without FNP. When counting the number of platforms you'd need that's solidly between the 'no shield' and 'shield' numbers for the lasercannon method.). Of course, then he can use his nova field to do stuff other than shield... so lasercannons might be a better idea after all. At least you're forcing him to spend his nova charge on the useless power. Also, I have no idea how easy it is to get assault cannons.

Also, force weapons for the grey knights turn riptides into small bits of metal. You could always go space wolves and Jaws of the World Wolf him.

P.S. There's almost this exact same thread going on in the "40k tactics" section right now.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Darn you Pouncy, there you go taking my Exalts again!

I'll weigh in on this, Nova Shield is probably the worst way to use the nova reactor, because you're essentially getting the same level of protection you already had (from a "number of shots that get through" perspective I mean), while not providing you any more dakka. At least Boost can be used as a GTFO if something deep strikes next to you (and I used it to that effect last game. nothing like watching a Riptide scooting 15" straight backwards in the assault phase holding its hands above its head and hollering "whoopwhoopwhoop" ala Zoidberg.)

I'd say pick something with a high rate of fire and a strength that can reliably wound it and say "frag the armor save". Assault cannon spam might just be the way to bring the giant down (reference, it takes 60 autocannon hits to bring a riptide down without FNP. When counting the number of platforms you'd need that's solidly between the 'no shield' and 'shield' numbers for the lasercannon method.). Of course, then he can use his nova field to do stuff other than shield... so lasercannons might be a better idea after all. At least you're forcing him to spend his nova charge on the useless power. Also, I have no idea how easy it is to get assault cannons.

Also, force weapons for the grey knights turn riptides into small bits of metal. You could always go space wolves and Jaws of the World Wolf him.

P.S. There's almost this exact same thread going on in the "40k tactics" section right now.

Imperial Guard have literally no assault cannons of their own. Gotta take allies for that.

Well, you could always ally Draigo + Pallies and hammer the things to death.

Lucarikx

I'm sorry, there's just so many bloody projectile weapons in this game for me to keep track of. I even messed up in my previous post and called it an autocannon (which totally isn't the same thing as an assault cannon...). Just for reference it takes 45 autocannon hits, making it significantly worse than a lasercannon from a "number of platforms" standpoint. Although autocannons would be slightly more effective against the things in the tau list that aren't riptides.


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I will say the "coolest" way to kill them all would be to take a runepriest and open a sinkhole under them (i.e. world wolf). If you could somehow catch them all in the same attack it would be glorious to behold. "roll a 3 or less to stop your riptide from dying please. now do it again. Now do it again. Thank you, I'll let you take the models off the table now"

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'm sorry, there's just so many bloody projectile weapons in this game for me to keep track of. I even messed up in my previous post and called it an autocannon (which totally isn't the same thing as an assault cannon...). Just for reference it takes 45 autocannon hits, making it significantly worse than a lasercannon from a "number of platforms" standpoint. Although autocannons would be slightly more effective against the things in the tau list that aren't riptides.

S'alright. ^^

And also keep in mind that an autocannon gets twice as many shots per weapon as a lascannon, so you'd need between 5/4 and 5/2 times as many autocannon platforms as lascannon platforms depending on whether the shield is up or down.. They're also significantly cheaper points-wise (though the additional squads needed will probably overcome that difference), and also, as you mentioned, work well against Tau Fire Warriors and most armies' light transports.

I have not faced them often, But i usually do it with my own riptide.
And try volume of fire type of shenanigens. My broadside unit with HYMP and missle drones put out 24 missle shots. and my other deathrind put out 12 with rerollable wounds.
Can lasguns kill t6?

I am pretty darn sure they can kill toughness 6. The real problem is you have to roll a 6 to wound and the riptide gets his 2+ save

Well you can also try to you frfsrf.
Also, plasma vets and vendettas could work.

Maybe Eldar allies?
I know the eldar have a lot of weapons in their codex that inflict instant death on a 6 to wound.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I am pretty darn sure they can kill toughness 6. The real problem is you have to roll a 6 to wound and the riptide gets his 2+ save

So it's like trying to kill a small unit of Biker Nobz with a Painboy?

As far as Lasguns are concerned, I mean.

Just to finish off the calculations (I do mathhammer for fun...what can I say, I'm an engineering major at the moment). You would need 180 lasgun hits to kill a riptide. With typical guardsmen accuracy that is 360 shots. I don't really recall what First Rank Second Rank does off the top of my head, but assuming it gives an extra shot (so 3 in rapid fire range, like my Ethereal) then that's 120 total guardsmen getting in rapid fire range of a Tau gunline...

I am not an Imperial Guard expert, but that sounds like an excessive amount of bodies even for the Guard to conscript.

Math hammer =/= the reality, it is just a guess based a math. Lie with numbers, According to some peoples math, my melta squaf should only hit 3/5 and only 1 penetrating av14. yet that happens very little

Mathhammer is like random psychic power tables. If you play about 15 identical games and meticulously record every outcome then it's a fine and quite reasonable system that gives consistent results

(funny how the people who love mathhammer often hate psychic power tables, but that's another subject entirely)

 dementedwombat wrote:
Just to finish off the calculations (I do mathhammer for fun...what can I say, I'm an engineering major at the moment). You would need 180 lasgun hits to kill a riptide. With typical guardsmen accuracy that is 360 shots. I don't really recall what First Rank Second Rank does off the top of my head, but assuming it gives an extra shot (so 3 in rapid fire range, like my Ethereal) then that's 120 total guardsmen getting in rapid fire range of a Tau gunline...

I am not an Imperial Guard expert, but that sounds like an excessive amount of bodies even for the Guard to conscript.

Well, certainly it's not likely to take the Riptide down on its own, but it will add a wound every now and then.

And yes, that's what FRFSRF does. The extra shot applies even out of half range, so between 12 and 24 inches you'd get 2 shots per lasgun.

Another idea I thought of since you were mentioning Orders (and I was reading this one Order tonight because my mom's just starting to play Imperial Guard) and Guardsmen's shooting ability.

You can improve the accuracy of your squads by using a Company Command Squad's order "Bring it Down" where basically the officer directs a nearby squad to direct its fire at a visible MC or vehicle, and if successful, they fire at it and their shots are twin-linked. Possibly combine that with some Heavy Weapons Squads from Infantry Platoons?


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 dementedwombat wrote:
Mathhammer is like random psychic power tables. If you play about 15 identical games and meticulously record every outcome then it's a fine and quite reasonable system that gives consistent results

(funny how the people who love mathhammer often hate psychic power tables, but that's another subject entirely)

Personally, I just like figuring out the odds of something happening.

Like when I was farming a particular piece of transmog gear in WoW, and went 36 runs before seeing it drop. With a 17% drop chance on each run.

I think when I calclulated the odds of going so many runs without seeing it drop, it was 0.6%

But that means that it happens six in every one thousand times.

ooh...twin linked is easy at BS 3. It goes to 75% hit rate (it's friendly at BS 2 as well, goes to slightly better than a 50% hit rate. I always wonder why they made my gun drones BS 2 twin linked instead of just BS 3).

So that's 3/2 the original value, you'd only need 80 Guardsmen (if combining it with the fire rate one). or you could roll with the original 120 guardsman only keep them out of rapid fire range, so they might actually live.

 dementedwombat wrote:
ooh...twin linked is easy at BS 3. It goes to 75% hit rate (it's friendly at BS 2 as well, goes to slightly better than a 50% hit rate. I always wonder why they made my gun drones BS 2 twin linked instead of just BS 3).

So that's 3/2 the original value, you'd only need 80 Guardsmen (if combining it with the fire rate one). or you could roll with the original 120 guardsman only keep them out of rapid fire range, so they might actually live.

Actually, you can't combine Orders with other Orders.

The Officers issue them one at a time, starting with the most senior officers (Company Commanders) and then the more junior commanders (Platoon Commanders). Only Company Commanders have access to Bring it Down; Platoon Commanders are more limited in the Orders they can use (but they can still use FRFSRF). Company Commanders can issue two Orders per turn, Junior Officers only one Order per turn.

When an Order is issued, it takes effect immediately. In the case of the ones that buff shooting (like Bring it Down or FRFSRF), it makes the unit affected immediately shoot at the appropriate target.

As for the Gun Drones, I think they look much better with two pulse carbines than they would with one. Sniper drones look fine with one weapon, but that's because it's really long, plus who ever heard of a twin-linked sniper weapon? Also, on the gun drone, people would be like, "Why not stick a second gun on that thing?"

Hmmm...only one order then. Well in that case you use First Rank Second Rank if you're out of rapid fire range. They're both equally effective inside rapid fire range, but I'd still do first rank second rank because it gives you a higher kill potential.

Ah well, I'm off to bed now.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Hmmm...only one order then. Well in that case you use First Rank Second Rank if you're out of rapid fire range. They're both equally effective inside rapid fire range, but I'd still do first rank second rank because it gives you a higher kill potential.

Ah well, I'm off to bed now.

Alright, nighters! : D

I was mostly thinking about Bring it Down being used with a 3(6?) man Heavy Weapons Squad with 3 autocannons or lascannons

Counting on assault from some force weapon toting Grey Knights is probably not going to be very effective against something that can make an emergency run like a scalded dog move of upto 36 inches in a single turn (6 inch, plus 1D6 Run plus a Nova enhanced 4D6 Thrust). Especially if that beastie drops a St 8 AP 2 blast on said Grey Knights when they arrived from reserve and doesn't have to worry about shooting them this turn.

It als sounds like this guy is bubble wrapping his Riptides, so you have to punch through the screening unit and take that nasty, nasty Supporting Fire before you get to assault too.

Runs priests have some potential, but as allies you can max out at 2 of them and if the Tau player has chosen the right warhead you have that S 8 AP 2 blast landing on the Rune Priest and his unit the moment it arrives via drop pod. The low initiative does make him vulnerable to the Jaws though, but it does get a +1 for being an MC.

Actually, since this is 3 Riptides it's likely you have three such big blasts landing on your GK/RP the moment he arrives. If you choose not to Deep Strike you are still facing multiple turns of Tau fire to get into effective range and unless you are in a Land Raider you're probably not going to make it.

A fun thing you could do allies wise is the Wolf Priest grants Preferred Enemy (Big Scary Stuff) to units he joins, so that heavy weapons squad of Las cannons would get some rerolls.

But personally I don't like the "Bring some allies" school of problem solving. I'd rather solutions come from within the codex.

Lots of snipers?

3 full ratling squads and as many sniper rifle filled special weapons squads as you can eat?

Luckily the other army I run is Knights/ Inquisition. So then I am going to field some allies in the next game. Hereticus Inquisitor and Vindicare, and a Pair of troops (1 Term 1 Strike)
Definitely going to shield break at least one, and pound the rest.

Lots of DE splinter shots or Necron Guass weapons nicely do the trick, I have found.

Hmmm, not sure on the shield breaker. I'll have to double check my codex but the wording may have the Riptide with 2 seperate invulnerable saves so it might only loose 1.

Also, my GK friends gave up putting assassins against my Tau due to them always dying the first time I fired at them. Tau can flood them with S 5 cover denying shots and wipe them out very easily.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Well, you could always ally Draigo + Pallies and hammer the things to death.

Lucarikx

I'd like to see them get past triptide ion blasts. My draigowing learned the hard way and my necrons had to pull all the load.

What poison weapons do you have acess too?

Your cure for riptides with the grey knights is probably not going to be a unique two wound model like the vindicare, sorry.

I'd suggest looking into large squads of interceptors, dreadknights, and Modrak (the deepstrike without error-er); because you are definitely going to want to take the battle to the tau lines as quickly as possible.

Failing that, may I suggest necrons as a possible alternative? There are few things that very efficiently costed 3++ saves on jump pack infantry (wraiths) cannot solve for you. ;-)