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Looking to find the most successful way of using a unit of greatswords...I really like the look of a horde containing 40 w/ a warrior priest plopped by a hurricanum. Thoughts?

You pretty much just nailed it. Go big or go demigryphs

Hmmm, I wonder, i guess the best way of keeping such a unit down is to barge in a anvil unit in front, or in its flank, and try to limit the number of attacks comming in long enough for the hammer to wipe it out from the Flank or Rear.

Or force it out of the way to having a diagonal bait and then let the horde overrun out of position.

you say wipe out in flank...Idk 4+ with possible 5++ lol still seems difficulty. Horde formation though you guys think? Or bus...But then again I run swordsmen bus so that is kind of redundant.

Don't forget your Razor Banner.
It makes S5 enough for most problems.

-Matt

I was thinking the +1 LD banner?

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I was thinking the +1 LD banner?

Nah, stick that somewhere else with the general for the stubborn 10.

-Matt

40 greatswords on their own is amazing in horde. The other day they got charged by 20-25 grave gaurd, then a blender lord and flank charged by 30 or more skellies. Wiped out the gaurd in one turn. Kept The Lord at one wound ( he kept getting them back) and was constantly killing 6ish skeletons. Kept winning combat. And when the demis finally were free and rear charged the skellies well then it was a piece of cake

Jayo'r wrote:
40 greatswords on their own is amazing in horde. The other day they got charged by 20-25 grave gaurd, then a blender lord and flank charged by 30 or more skellies. Wiped out the gaurd in one turn. Kept The Lord at one wound ( he kept getting them back) and was constantly killing 6ish skeletons. Kept winning combat. And when the demis finally were free and rear charged the skellies well then it was a piece of cake

That was a huge mistake on the vampires part. You never throw core into a fight with anything of value. Flanking a stubborn unit does almost nothing.

-Matt

Can I add don't forget a detachment? I played my first game of fantasy in like 20 years, I had 35 Greatswords with a WP and 15 Halberds on the side.the performed amazingly

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Looking to find the most successful way of using a unit of greatswords...

There is none. You can use a unit of GS as a tarpit, an anvil, a hammer, or all of this during a game. There is no "most successful" way of using them a priori.

I really like the look of a horde containing 40 w/ a warrior priest plopped by a hurricanum. Thoughts?

I don't like the look. One guy on his own in the last rank is aesthetically displeasing. Apart from that, sure, why not.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
you say wipe out in flank...Idk 4+ with possible 5++ lol still seems difficulty. Horde formation though you guys think? Or bus...

Horde in 90 percent of the cases. GS are stubborn, so they do not depend on ranks, and 30 S5 attacks with hatred and/or a prayer is considerable.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I was thinking the +1 LD banner?

Yes, the SoD is the best one for this unit. Alternatively, the BSB for an even better chance to pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That was a huge mistake on the vampires part. You never throw core into a fight with anything of value. Flanking a stubborn unit does almost nothing.

I don't think that was the point...

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I was thinking the +1 LD banner?

Yes, the SoD is the best one for this unit. Alternatively, the BSB for an even better chance to pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That was a huge mistake on the vampires part. You never throw core into a fight with anything of value. Flanking a stubborn unit does almost nothing.

I don't think that was the point...

Standard of Discipline will make them LD9, but prevent the use of the generals leadership. Better off to stick that banner in with the general and get Ld10 over a larger area.

My point about the vampire mistake is one for the empire players to learn from. Don't protect your flank. Let your opponent hit the flank, you'll do just fine.

-Matt

I think being charged from the flank might be devestating if that unit is a block of Chaos warriors that basically dish out quite a few S4 attacks if they are not halberds.

My personal favorite chaos "Hammer" is a unit of Chaos Knights with a few Chaos warrior blocks, and i wouldnt be too afraid of a large blob like this if i manage to hit the flank....problem is how to get rid of 40 models in enough rounds to justify tossing a block of warriors on it, i would just consider ignoring it, and charge bait it into other units.

*shrug* just know that if you rely on this unit too much it can easily be held up if its stuck in a unkillable unit on the flank and it slowly get withered away while the rest of your army is getting slaughtered.

Dracoknight wrote:
I think being charged from the flank might be devestating if that unit is a block of Chaos warriors that basically dish out quite a few S4 attacks if they are not halberds.

My personal favorite chaos "Hammer" is a unit of Chaos Knights with a few Chaos warrior blocks, and i wouldnt be too afraid of a large blob like this if i manage to hit the flank....problem is how to get rid of 40 models in enough rounds to justify tossing a block of warriors on it, i would just consider ignoring it, and charge bait it into other units.

*shrug* just know that if you rely on this unit too much it can easily be held up if its stuck in a unkillable unit on the flank and it slowly get withered away while the rest of your army is getting slaughtered.

Which is why I suggest the Razor banner. S5 save -3 doesn't get held up too long.
Being stubborn, you're testing against your unmodified leadership to combat reform. Knights in the flank might kill ~8 great swords, but when the surviving 32 combat reform to face those knights, the knights won't last long.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Dracoknight wrote:
I think being charged from the flank might be devestating if that unit is a block of Chaos warriors that basically dish out quite a few S4 attacks if they are not halberds.

My personal favorite chaos "Hammer" is a unit of Chaos Knights with a few Chaos warrior blocks, and i wouldnt be too afraid of a large blob like this if i manage to hit the flank....problem is how to get rid of 40 models in enough rounds to justify tossing a block of warriors on it, i would just consider ignoring it, and charge bait it into other units.

*shrug* just know that if you rely on this unit too much it can easily be held up if its stuck in a unkillable unit on the flank and it slowly get withered away while the rest of your army is getting slaughtered.

Which is why I suggest the Razor banner. S5 save -3 doesn't get held up too long.
Being stubborn, you're testing against your unmodified leadership to combat reform. Knights in the flank might kill ~8 great swords, but when the surviving 32 combat reform to face those knights, the knights won't last long.

-Matt

Wait, you can reform a unit to face flanks?
Oh yeah... reading it up in the BRB it can happen, but you can stop that from happening if you charge multiply units into the mix.

Dracoknight wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Dracoknight wrote:
I think being charged from the flank might be devestating if that unit is a block of Chaos warriors that basically dish out quite a few S4 attacks if they are not halberds.

My personal favorite chaos "Hammer" is a unit of Chaos Knights with a few Chaos warrior blocks, and i wouldnt be too afraid of a large blob like this if i manage to hit the flank....problem is how to get rid of 40 models in enough rounds to justify tossing a block of warriors on it, i would just consider ignoring it, and charge bait it into other units.

*shrug* just know that if you rely on this unit too much it can easily be held up if its stuck in a unkillable unit on the flank and it slowly get withered away while the rest of your army is getting slaughtered.

Which is why I suggest the Razor banner. S5 save -3 doesn't get held up too long.
Being stubborn, you're testing against your unmodified leadership to combat reform. Knights in the flank might kill ~8 great swords, but when the surviving 32 combat reform to face those knights, the knights won't last long.

-Matt

Wait, you can reform a unit to face flanks?
Oh yeah... reading it up in the BRB it can happen, but you can stop that from happening if you charge multiply units into the mix.

And if you charge multiple units into the mix (different sides) then you have the greatswords fighting to the front and flank, which isn't a bad thing. Greatswords have got a good shot at taking warriors and knights in a round of combat.
You could try knights in the front and warriors in the flank; but warriors are pretty hard to get around to the flank, and the knights really risk being wiped out by the horde of S5 sv -3 attacks.

-Matt

I Run Warriors of Tzeentch, so a 5+ Parry Save, so i would toss those in the front and the knights in the flank or rear.

On a 18 warrior block with 6 in the front you have about 18 attacks at Str 4, and then knights come in at the flank ( if its a 2k game its a block of 9 knights with a Exalted on steed ) so i toss in another 15ish attacks from the side aswell at str 5.

Thats why you flank with the knights, because you cant support attacks to the rear or flank, and you need the anvil of warriors to prevent them from reforming in your direction.... so the best option is to save this unit for last unless you have really heavy hitting units with a lot of attacks such as 2 warriors blocks to the front with knights on the flank and a Demon prince to the back, and if they aint dead by then you are a very unlucky invidual ^^;;

Dracoknight wrote:
I Run Warriors of Tzeentch, so a 5+ Parry Save, so i would toss those in the front and the knights in the flank or rear.

On a 18 warrior block with 6 in the front you have about 18 attacks at Str 4, and then knights come in at the flank ( if its a 2k game its a block of 9 knights with a Exalted on steed ) so i toss in another 15ish attacks from the side aswell at str 5.

That's ~950 points of chaos taking on 505 of empire. On equal points, great swords do very well vs chaos warriors. Great Swords with armor piercing and backed up by a warrior priest do even better.
The hammer of sigmar is really brutal. Re-rolls to hit from hate with re-rolls to wound from the hammer means that they cut through sword and board tzeench warriors better than most things in the game.
Shield of faith is likewise brutal, 5+ ward really takes the edge off losses you're taking.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Standard of Discipline will make them LD9, but prevent the use of the generals leadership. Better off to stick that banner in with the general and get Ld10 over a larger area.

The General's range remains the same 12" with or without the SoD. We don't get Ld 10 over a larger but in fact a smaller area. The alternative - GS + SoD and a General elsewhere - is what provides good solid Ld 9 over a large area. In addition, it allows the GS to go off and do stuff on their own, reducing the necessity to rely on boosters (which are of course still welcome), and providing a kind of independant unit.

I don't see why it matters that an Ld 9 unit cannot use the Ld 9 from IP. Unless I'm missing a particular rule, that doesn't sound like a terrible drawback.

Dracoknight wrote:
I think being charged from the flank might be devestating if that unit is a block of Chaos warriors that basically dish out quite a few S4 attacks if they are not halberds.

My personal favorite chaos "Hammer" is a unit of Chaos Knights with a few Chaos warrior blocks, and i wouldnt be too afraid of a large blob like this if i manage to hit the flank....problem is how to get rid of 40 models in enough rounds to justify tossing a block of warriors on it, i would just consider ignoring it, and charge bait it into other units.

*shrug* just know that if you rely on this unit too much it can easily be held up if its stuck in a unkillable unit on the flank and it slowly get withered away while the rest of your army is getting slaughtered.

1. Being charged from the flank will be devastating if it's a block of CW flanked by GS with just a single attack, too.

2. A hammer of Chaos Knights, ie 10 guys with some command, perhaps a banner, costs near enough the same as 40 GS. Even if the former for some reason hits the flank, it kills perhaps some 8-9 guys, and some 8-9 more, and then loses over 5 men itself when the GS reform and hit back, plus whatever they could kill in the first round. Sure marks will have a huge effect but that a) pushes the point cost in the GS's favour, and b) still means the GS are stuck for quite a while.

3. MoN Halberds can kill this unit if they indeed catch it on its own - that's a good enough argument to justify throwing them in there - but that goes for a couple dozen other units, too and is not specific to nor an argument against a horde of GS. As a matter of fact, pushing 18 MoN Halberds right into those Greatswords will very likely yield you those points BUT

4. You can consider to charge bait or ignore it but that goes both ways. The GS horde is an investment but not as much as to prevent the Empire player from taking as much chaff as the next guy.

Well, today I got 45 GS built. I plan on running a horde of 40 w/ a WP and lvl 4 life. Also running 40 man swords bus and 25 halberdiers. Can't wait to try them next weekend! You guys think GS better as static or hammer (i.e. offensive)?

That completely depends on the situation. I've used them in both roles with some success. Two random examples would be holding up a Black Knight bus with characters all game long (and taking out the BSB in the process) and crashing into the flank of a bus of Zombies, making the unit go Poof and me pushing through that flank to threaten other units. Take a look at the overall picture and then formulate a plan and assign them a role.

While I do think Dracoknight makes too many assumptions about how he would just chose the units and attack vectors at his leisure and the opposition being completely outplayed or passive, Greatsword are still humans, so it's always wise to treat them like that (but I'm probably not telling you anything you didn't already know).

 Mike der Ritter wrote:


While I do think Dracoknight makes too many assumptions about how he would just chose the units and attack vectors at his leisure and the opposition being completely outplayed or passive, Greatsword are still humans, so it's always wise to treat them like that (but I'm probably not telling you anything you didn't already know).

Its not how i assume the attack vectors, its about making the tactic so you will get into that situation.
If you want to attack a grand unit of 40 Greatswords you should have your hammer units in the flank, and having another unit aswell on them that doesnt die instantly to prevent their reform.

Greatswords being 40 means they can be rather unwhieldly and slow, so you might be better off just ignoring the unit and kill everything else before you jump into a unit like this...

So the so-called "assumtions" is where i would attack it if i wanted to, if its not from that vector its a loss for me, attacking it from the front even with Chaos warriors is outright suicide and then the movement is about trying to flank it or avoid it, taking into account of human behavior i would just wait and see where he fields this block, and then make sure that i can get those vectors i need.

This is simple tactics, i know what i have in MY army, and i can toss whatever i like in it at the unit in question, and the vectors are just how i would proceed in attacking it.

So how is that about "assumtions" eh?

The problem is, those "slow" greatswords are the same speed as the warriors. Due to 20mm basing, the horde is only 2" wider than your typical warrior unit.
Finally, empire is awesome at taking out chaff (cheap core knights, and lots, and lots of shooters) where as chaos pretty much has to clear chaff with must more expensive combat units.

In games I've seen, any foot warriors army picks it's fights during deployments, and doesn't have enough time to really do much else.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem is, those "slow" greatswords are the same speed as the warriors. Due to 20mm basing, the horde is only 2" wider than your typical warrior unit.
Finally, empire is awesome at taking out chaff (cheap core knights, and lots, and lots of shooters) where as chaos pretty much has to clear chaff with must more expensive combat units.

In games I've seen, any foot warriors army picks it's fights during deployments, and doesn't have enough time to really do much else.

-Matt

Indeed, quite a few people claim that WoC is quite "easy" to play as you only need to worry about getting into melee, Deployment and Movement phase is the two most important parts, and if i wanted to have a set-up such as described above to take this unit down, i had to dedicate to it by having a Warrior hammer, or some fodder to keep it in place while my just as slow warriors get in place, and that my knights have done their deed with higher priority targets.

So a 18-unit of warriors doing 18+1 attacks against getting like 30 back is scary as hell considering they most likely going to cripple my shield`n boards down to a 5+ or 6+ armor saves, dunno about leadership tho, but if you manage to wreck their leadership with shadow and charge in with knights you could be lucky for the fear effect to get em down to WS1.

But my priority would be quite low for this unit, my Knights would hunt something else, and this unit would most likely blocked or charge lured off my lines ( For those not undestanding the "charge lure" its basically having a unit in front in a diagonal, as its the enemy charger that "close the door" and in a case of overrun or not, they will face the wrong direction, and if they dont take the bait, they still cant charge "over" the unit )

*Shrug* the easy way out i am guessing is to use flyers such as Deamon Prince, Disc Lord or Chimeras to fly over it, or as you said: "Pick the fight in the deployment phase" and hope the map isnt a chokepoint. But considering Chaos is so damn expensive, at least we have the space to move our troops a little more than the empire that most likely filled his deployment zone to the brims ^^;;

Dracoknight wrote:

you might be better off just ignoring the unit and kill everything else before you jump into a unit like this...

That's somehow true, and yet I completely fail to see the relevance of that. This is not a WoC Tactica, and neither is it somehow specific to WoC. It applies to the Empire player or every other faction out there as well. What irritates me is that the discussion goes like this:

"How do I use Greatswords?"

"I combo-charge them with units A and B."

"Cool stuff, so back to the question..."

"I kill everything else."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!?

Dracoknight wrote:

So how is that about "assumtions" eh?

Not convincing. Let me explain: I'll ignore your unit which I don't want to face and kill the rest of your list. And now what? At the best of times, it's a rough plan which is completely OT and which may or may not work. At worst, it's a hollow claim - hot air. What does it actually tell us? Nothing, except something about your self-confidence, which I'm not sure anyone is interested in.

Everyone can say that. It's interchangeable, it's arbitrary, its information value trends towards zero.

Alright i see your point, i might have hijacked the thread a bit, personally i thought while seeing the unit from the other side and "reverse engineer" my tactics will light up a light in a empire player going "oh i should totally use this unit to hinder him getting what he wants"

Not much about self confidence i am afraid, its just the way that you "should" or at least try to kill everything else tho my choice of words makes me look like a hot airbag, but i am just trying to underline the point a direct confrontation with greatswords is in most cases a waste of Chaos resources.

Against myself greatswords in a horde would be excellent denying a flank, and could be deployed mid-to-late to pick a fight against anything scary i might have on the table ( most likely a chaos knight unit )

So if i know how to fight this unit, then you as a reader might know what to avoid letting me do: Exactly, hinder my movement so i cant ignore it, or cant flank it with a hammer unit.

So sorry about that, but Warhammer Fantasy is hard discussing tactics as it always go "I go with this unit!" "Then i will have this unit!" "Aha! but then i will do this" ( Sounds too familiar doesnt it? )... which is rarely worth it, but personally i like discussing "rough plans" as they kind of set up the mind-set and goal for what your army will do in your next game against someone.

So if anything this little OT discussion have proved that a horde of greatswords are truly deadly and can be tossed into direct confrontation with even Chaos.

Well spoken, Dracoknight.

Greatswords have great weapons, WS4, and a decent number of attacks/point. Therefore, they are a good Hammer.
Greatswords are also Stubborn, and have a decent number of wounds/point. So they're also a good Anvil.

They're not the best at either, but they're super versatile.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Looking to find the most successful way of using a unit of greatswords...I really like the look of a horde containing 40 w/ a warrior priest plopped by a hurricanum. Thoughts?

This is the way I will be using them also,

Add Walter in there

As they're stubborn, would they not be viable as small units?