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Are people still having success with the cheap little flamer? It doesn't help with the increase in flyers, super skimmers or MCs but I still seem value in it for stacking wounds and denying cover.

The problem is we already have PCSs to do the same thing. Put em in a Vendetta and that's all they're good for. PCSs can have 4 instead of 3, and you have to take a PCS (if not running vets) anyways.

I use 3 flamers in a PCS with a vox (for orders) and it serves me well. I face many assault oriented armies, so hide'em behind something and have'em burn that big blob at the right moment.

Flamers, outside of a special delivery system like stormies or fliers, have always had a rather dubious use, what with their narrow band of killing power and serious range problems. 6th didn't really change this.

As for the SWS in general, for the price of two and a bit, you could take a hellhound, which would be much better.

 Ailaros wrote:
Flamers, outside of a special delivery system like stormies or fliers, have always had a rather dubious use, what with their narrow band of killing power and serious range problems. 6th didn't really change this.

As for the SWS in general, for the price of two and a bit, you could take a hellhound, which would be much better.

You don't think the ability to overwatch coupled with increased cover saves has helped them?

If I switched to PCS, could they go in a Chimera instead of the Vendetta? Saves some points.

They are six dudes with flamers. Your opponent would just shoot them instead of assaulting them. If he did that, he seriously made a huge mistake, because he suffered unnecessary casualties.

Yes, you can put them in a Platoon Command Squad.

My personal opinion you can better take Grenade launchers over flamers. Grenade launchers can be used against hordes and with S6 you can use them against heavier things as well. The range of 24 above 8 means you can engage enemies earlier instead of stopping right in front of their faces.

They're a decent list-filler, if you want to run the cheapest scoring unit possible, with access to a few specials, to throw in a Vendetta. Otherwise you're better throwing a naked Infantry Squad in there.

I find that they're a pretty ugly late-game trick. People usually forget that you've got 3 Flamers in that Vendetta. Since it's a flier, and you're usually zooming until late game anyway, people think nothing of hanging out underneath it. In the right position, though, 3 Flamers can stack a ton of wounds on a unit.

With Allied IG I like them. I take a squadron of two Vendetta, and having a SWS with Flamers and a PCS with Flamers riding inside them works very well. The PIS blob up and I don't really have points to fill out the rest of the Allied FOC.

Burnas in my ork list is one of my best units to lead off with. Especially since they are a ap3 melee weapon.

minigun762 wrote:You don't think the ability to overwatch coupled with increased cover saves has helped them?

Not really.

The problem is one of practicality. If your opponent is concerned about 6 guardsmen with a 0" range weapon, then your opponent should have no problems whatsoever killing them before they get a solid shot in - if they're even capable of getting a solid shot in. Even if they do manage to get, say, 4 hits per template (which is the more than I've ever managed to get out of flamers that weren't on deepstriking stormtroopers, etc.), the only targets they're shooting at are ones that managed to make it all the way across the board to your flamers. Said things aren't likely to care about a S4 Ap5 weapon, ignores cover save or no.

They did, in absolute terms, get better, but their gain doesn't come into play often, and doesn't overcome their other problems.

In the end, flamers are sort of like sniper rifles - a cheap weapon that excels in an incredibly narrow niche, and spend most of their time not really doing much otherwise. In fact, I'd actually rather take a sniper rifle SWS, as at least you'd have the range to consistently get a few shots off every game, rather than vainly twiddling their thumbs waiting for that one good blast of fire that's never going to happen.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The problem is we already have PCSs to do the same thing. Put em in a Vendetta and that's all they're good for. PCSs can have 4 instead of 3, and you have to take a PCS (if not running vets) anyways.

This is the biggest problem. To get a SWS you need to buy at least one PCS, so you've already covered your need for a cheap Vendetta flamer squad. And obviously flamer SWS on the ground are pretty much worthless.

loner wrote:
My personal opinion you can better take Grenade launchers over flamers. Grenade launchers can be used against hordes and with S6 you can use them against heavier things as well. The range of 24 above 8 means you can engage enemies earlier instead of stopping right in front of their faces.

Or you could just take neither. GLs are even worse than flamers. The flamer may at least do something if it gets into an ideal situation somehow, the GL will be mediocre at best even under absolutely ideal conditions (and awful the vast majority of the time).

When is the flamer in the right ideal situation? Maybe once per game, if you get lucky.

Compared to the flamer, I'd rather have a grenade launcher or sniper rifle simply because I can engage things over a longer range.

However if you have the points, you're better off with a meltagun.

loner wrote:
When is the flamer in the right ideal situation? Maybe once per game, if you get lucky.

When is the grenade launcher in the right ideal situation? Never.

At least a grenade launcher can fire all game.

loner wrote:
At least a grenade launcher can fire all game.

And it can fire all game without ever accomplishing anything. A flamer might not be able to fire very often, but when it does at least it tends to do some decent damage.

Which, of course, is the important lesson about IG: you're an army of specialists and maximum-firepower units. Don't screw around with units that are mediocre against lots of things, every unit in your list should have a target in mind and inflict maximum damage against it.

Grenade launchers and sniper rifles slow the game down in tournament play. 5 turns of long range plinking with weak weapons takes more time than 1 turn of templates. Not a big deal for playing at a flgs, but a huge deal when playing in a 135 minute time limit.

Flamer sws and pcs don't operate in a vacuum. There is a lot ofother stuff on the field for an opponent to shoot at.

Against most armies they are a counter assault unit. If an IG unit gets eaten in cc one chimera can tank shock them next turn, and a 2nd can dump quad flamers into them after they are clustered. Same idea often works on foot.

The squad is small and can hide behind los blocking terrain.

Competing units for a ride in a vendetta=nakid pis. They cost the same, have ld8, and have 4 more wounds. Vastly superior at holding the late game objective snag while being shot at, but doesnt have the short range dakka of the glamers.

I believe that we are going around in circles here. I think that the grenade launcher can engage and kill something, because of the longer range.
The advantage of the having 16'' more, makes it a better weapon in my eyes.

If i take 3 vendettas I will take one 4xflamer PCS with MB on the platoon comander and two SWS with 2xflamers and one demo charge. Excellent cheap units with the ability to multi task.

loner wrote:
I believe that we are going around in circles here. I think that the grenade launcher can engage and kill something, because of the longer range.
The advantage of the having 16'' more, makes it a better weapon in my eyes.

I'm with you on GLs loner, but some believe anything not melta or plasma is blasphemy it appears. I like it because it allows my platoons to threaten light transports

Flamers aside, does anybody use SWS? I'd be tempted to try one with snipers as they would be a low priority target, score, and, if lucky, possibly harass lower LD units (I'm looking at you, fire warriors).

loner wrote:
At least a grenade launcher can fire all game.

does it really matter if it can fire all game when it's stuck in the back of a vendetta 'till turn 6?

that is how one uses SWS...

Look at it like this.

When you have to run across an open area with a flamer and everyone else has machine guns...how do YOU feel?





...I know it's much more complicated than this...just further expressing the situational feel of flamers.

 ductvader wrote:
Look at it like this.

When you have to run across an open area with a flamer and everyone else has machine guns...how do YOU feel?





...I know it's much more complicated than this...just further expressing the situational feel of flamers.

guardsmen tend to utilise presentation pointers, actually.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Look at it like this.

When you have to run across an open area with a flamer and everyone else has machine guns...how do YOU feel?





...I know it's much more complicated than this...just further expressing the situational feel of flamers.

guardsmen tend to utilise presentation pointers, actually.

This is why I use Zoanthropes...can't blind me if I don't have eyes!

Regardless of the obvious superiority of plasma/melt a, I'm surprised everyone is hating on the Flamer.

Mine have always done excellent.