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I wanted to start a topic specifically on these tanks because I have been seeing them doing better and better with the shifting meta. I have watched a pair of land raiders make it to a typical tau gunline's midst in a turn or two and drop off chaos chosen, with dirge casters preventing overwatch, and chop them to bits by hitting their center line like a wrecking ball. Likewise I have started to see loyalist land-raiders, typically crusaders, punish armies with a greater battlefield infantry presence. With armies packing more and more S7 the landraider's utility goes up and up.

I know they are not perfect, I know that they still have bad match-ups, but the player driven meta seems to be pushing these bad match-ups further and further to the side. You see less Dark Eldar, Eldar are not exactly bristling with lances (when scatter+cannon is the typical load-out for the serpent), Tau hammerheads are not exactly showing up to the board in abundance and the riptide needs to be really lucky, and melta isn't exactly popular at the moment either. Guass is still obviously a bad match-up, but even in that regard I have started to notice smaller and smaller squads of immortals and warriors in favor of more toys and allies.

I am curious as to what others think on this topic.

I think it's a matter of meta where you are at honestly. Where I am at, the first time I take a LR once it is built people aren't going to know what to do about it with their current lists, the AV is simply lacking for the most part. Within a couple of games, people will have remembered how to kill it though(other players used them, just long long ago), and it will only work in certain situations again.

I've found good luck with CSM land raiders. The nice thing is that they are only 230 points, and when your bringing multiples, a 20 point break per model can make a huge difference.

The challenge I've seen with LR spam is that it opens up a big weakness for your army. You can easily introduce some very bad match ups to yourself. I played one ravenwing player at a RTT who brought 12 melta guns! My triple land raider did not last long. A daemon flying circus with 5 FMCs will also make sort work of your land raiders.
This might do great at a local tourney, but if you go to an GT where your playing 6-7 games, your banking a lot of odds that you won't run across a bad matchup or two.

So your best bet is to make the points invested into land raiders not be the majority of points in your army. 3 land raiders is 690 points before upgrades. In a 1850 game that's not completely out of scope. One of the strategies is that you don't want to make your LR unit a one trick pony. You don't want to just throw down an assault CSM list and call it a day -- your units will fail. Instead I suggest brining a unit that can act as mid-field objective holders. If you need the land raiders, throw your guys in them. If you don't then leave your guys out. If you need to use them to assault, you can ... etc....

Heavy point sinks that are one Melta Gun / Manticore Rocket / MC Smash away from being a 200+ pt deficit. Meh...

It's the kind of thing that you need to build a list around. Many Marine players run one Land Raider and a bunch of other stuff, and I think that's a mistake - one isn't really that big a deal. 3+ become a pain to piss at from across the table, and if you can make them killier either with cargo or buffs (e.g., Banner of Devastation), they can work fairly well.

I do think it is a meta thing, i always see some kind of LR or battle wagon when I play. All of my builds have elements to handle these so I like to see that AV 14 hit the board.

I've been wanting to experiment with multiple cultist units in landraiders. Just keep them inside all game for protection, and on the last turns (or whenever it's safe) dump them out onto objectives, preferably behind the hull of the landraider.

I just wiiiiiiiiish wish wish wish wish that our LRs held 12 models, so you could put a character in with those cultists. Or I could have a 6 man Slaanesh terminator squad. Oh well.

Spellbound wrote:
I've been wanting to experiment with multiple cultist units in landraiders. Just keep them inside all game for protection, and on the last turns (or whenever it's safe) dump them out onto objectives, preferably behind the hull of the landraider.l.

I tried that out and it has some big problems. If a squad of 10 MEQ appear near them (drop pods, etc) your cultists cannot get out and take care of the risk. However, if you have something with at least a few teeth, you can address the MEQ and remove them.
Also, since your taking 10 cultists at a min, you can't stick an IC in the land raider with the cultists.

This is what I would take today in a CSM list at 1750. Its a first stab and would take some tweaking, but this is where I would start.
Lord w/Terminator armor, MoN, LC, PF
7 PMs w/2 MGs
7 PMs w/2 MG
7 PMs w/2 flamers
Helldrake
Helldrake
Land Raider w/Dirge Caster
Land Raider w/Dirge Caster
Land Raider w/Dirge Caster
Its weak to a heavy assault FMC list -- but the fact is your never going to build a list without a weakness. You just have to pick what will give you the least amount of bad matchups.

The issue with running multiple Land Raiders is you're playing a rock, paper, scissor list hoping to run into those autocannon and plasma spammers.

Running a single Raider is much easier to do in a TAC list.

 minigun762 wrote:
The issue with running multiple Land Raiders is you're playing a rock, paper, scissor list hoping to run into those autocannon and plasma spammers.

Here is what's important.

Your running a rock to the Tau, Necron, and Eldar Wave serpent spam lists.
Your paper is melta-spam, and FMC spam, Ork BW spam with dual warbosses.

I would take those odds over running a ravenwing army any day of the week in today's meta.

I could see the value in a themed list like this, especially as a meta spoiler, but I'm a fan of the jack of all trades list personally.

That said, this topic has me considering replacing a Vindicator and Rhino CSM for a Raider with BP/CCW CSMs.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
The issue with running multiple Land Raiders is you're playing a rock, paper, scissor list hoping to run into those autocannon and plasma spammers.

Here is what's important.

Your running a scissor to the Tau, Necron, and Eldar Waveserpent spam lists.
Your paper is melta-spam, and FMC spam, Ork BW spam with dual warbosses.

I would take those odds over running a ravenwing army any day of the week in today's meta.

So a landraider list is a rock in this analogy?

A month ago I ran dual Dark Angel LR Redeemers with the 30pt upgrade that re-rolls pen results, followed by a bike squad with Techmarine with Power Field Generator. Was hilarious! Each LRR ended the match only missing a single hull point.

I run a Black Templar list at 1999+1.

Roughly:
Marshall (Terminator, TH/SS, Eternal Warrior)
Emperor's Champion (Abhor the Witch)

Venerable Dread
-TL-LC/ML
-Empty Pod
(Follows Land Raider Crusaders)
3 Plasmagun Bikers
(Follows Land Raider Crusaders)

8+2 Crusader Squad
-Melta/PF/Drop Pod
8+2 Crusader Squad
-Melta/PF/Drop Pod

10+2 Crusader Squad
-Melta/PF/In LRC w/ Marshal
10+4 Crusader Squad
-Melta/PF/In LRC w/ Champion

2 LRC (as Heavy Support)
-Both with Blessed Hull (Immune to Lance effects)

Turn 1, 2 Drop pods come in Turn1 and fire Meltaguns into good targets, or pistols into infantry to lighten them up. Move LRC12" then flat out 18. Move bikes out to shoot, or move 12"+Flat Out behind LRC if no good targets). Venerable Dread moves forward 6" and line of sights high strength targets and shoots his weapons.
(Everything moves forward and gets ready)

Turn 2, Drop-podded Marines assault viable targets. LRC move 6", disembark 6", and assault 2d6". Bikers pull up into Plasma's Rapid Fire range. Dreadnought moves 6" and fires once again.
(Everything assaults except Dread/Bikers)

I love playing the list because so many people run conservative gunline armies in my meta. It has GLARING weaknesses, especially against Heldrakes and FMC spam. But overall, it does well against TAC lists and Gunlines. There is tactical finesse needed. Rock/Paper/Scissors is the name of the game!

I really enjoy the list because of a few reasons:
-6th edition is dakka intensive. I'd rather break the meta than follow it.
-Land Raiders are one of the coolest models in 40k. If I'm going to play any Chapter, I'm personally obligated to have at least one. (I never liked the idea of a single threat, so I went with 2)
-I'm playing Black Templar. If I'm going to play the oldest codex in the game, might as well have fun with it and make a full Turn2-assault list!!

Edit:
Against Enemy Psykers, everything in my army moves d6" closer after deployment is over. That gets my Land Raiders a few more inches closer to their targets. Another BT perk!!

I have had really good success with running one LR in my Dark Angels list. The key is to not be too aggressive with it. I typically load it up with TH/SS terminators and an assault cannon and use it as an area denial unit. The LR can plop mid table, possibly behind a wall or something for a cover save, and just shoot at anything that gets close. It's basically a guaranteed objective when I want it.

If people get too close I can move up and drop off the terminators to assault. If they threaten a nearby objective, or my bikes etc get caught in cc then I can reinforce quickly with the TH/SS terminators and screen them from my opponent's shooting phase after they kick the **** out of whatever was threatening me.

The key to using them is to realize that they can die. Don't surge up into melta range, and try and play cautiously until your right opportunity arises. Also, AV14 is immune to pretty much everything so use the bulk of the LR to block off LOS to your objectives, vulnerable units, and make a wall between your enemy's assault units and your own. It means they either have to go around your LR, or assault it to destroy it, and unless they are packing chainfists etc it's going to be rather difficult to do.

This is of course the regular Land Raider variant, not the LRC or LRR. But I assume similar tactics can apply. In addition, they can be more or less successful based on the rest of the army you are using. If all you are presenting for the enemy to shoot is 3 Land Raider, then you'd better be prepared to take a lot of fire on one of them. In my case, I use Bikes, Terminators, and Land Raiders, so it presents a lot of threats at once, and the deep striking terminators and plasma bikes tend to draw more immediate fire than the land raider, which is probably going to survive most of the shooting. Which allows it to survive and do its job and reinforce the more vulnerable areas. In the many games I have used it, I think it has only been destroyed 3 or 4 times (out of about 20 games) so those odds are pretty good

- VardenV2

A similar plan can be hatched to drive BA DC across the board with a single LR. It helps to have other AV 13 elements in the list, which fortunately for BA, are some of our remaining viable units. Predators that move 6" and fire all weapons? Yes, please.

I run a CC Black Templar army with a pair of LRCs. the only real way to kill them is with Melta which is a death sentence to damn near everything.

Their primary job is just a battle-bus, plain and simple. A giant bullet proof bus of doom, but a bus none the less. Keeping both payloads about equal makes target priority harder and it's pretty much a guaranteed turn 2 charge. With such an extreme list, with a few exceptions, all Anti Infantry firepower is useless. With this list I have had some good measure of success.

I think Varden is onto a good idea for standard pattern Land Raiders. Think of them as a gun platform and counter assault unit instead of just charging forward from turn 1.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Here is what's important.

Your running a rock to the Tau, Necron, and Eldar Wave serpent spam lists.
Your paper is melta-spam, and FMC spam, Ork BW spam with dual warbosses.

I would take those odds over running a ravenwing army any day of the week in today's meta.

But are you really running that big of a rock? Necron wraith's with a destroyer lord can do pretty well against your land raiders (thanks to rending and 2d6 pen on the staff) Gauss weapons can strip hull points. For eldar serpent spam there is usually some firedragons in those serpents. And tau is a mixed bag. A long strike hammer head is good. Some lists run double fussion crisis suits with puretide chip for tank hunter.

My biggest problem with raider spam is that it only works once or twice. After that people start putting in more melta or dedicated tank hunters so they are not stomped again. Unlike say flyer spam where only a few codices have an answer, every codex has an answer to raider spam.

What do people mean by "only works once or twice"?

In a tournament, you play games and it's only against 3 different opponents (at a small local one). You bring 2 LRCs and let's just say no one has "good" answers to it because no one in your meta had a list like this.

Then you're assuming all the players at the tournament saw your double LR list and added more Meltas? Out of all the lists at a tournament, they are going to see one player with 2 LRCs and add enough meltas to deal with it?

If they add 1 or 2 meltas (or other similar weapons), you can avoid them or shoot at them first and eliminate LR threats.

I don't see how one player can change the meta so much where the list stops working. You might have to play the list differently, but by no means does a LR list work once or twice and simply stop working.

I might be stepping out of a limb here but I don't see the logic.

Phone error...

Saythings wrote:
What do people mean by "only works once or twice"?

In a tournament, you play games and it's only against 3 different opponents (at a small local one). You bring 2 LRCs and let's just say no one has "good" answers to it because no one in your meta had a list like this.

Then you're assuming all the players at the tournament saw your double LR list and added more Meltas? Out of all the lists at a tournament, they are going to see one player with 2 LRCs and add enough meltas to deal with it?

If they add 1 or 2 meltas (or other similar weapons), you can avoid them or shoot at them first and eliminate LR threats.

I don't see how one player can change the meta so much where the list stops working. You might have to play the list differently, but by no means does a LR list work once or twice and simply stop working.

I might be stepping out of a limb here but I don't see the logic.

In a tournament perhaps not, but in a gaming group people will start taking counters very quickly. It's more a meta issue in those groups.

For me it will go something like this, and does everytime I change my army significantly(I play BA and was doing very assaulty, when I went very shooty one week my opponents were all sorts of confused): This week, I don't have anything resembling an LR. The next week, I bring an LR, and they don't have enough heavy weaponry to deal with it. Since no one uses it, everyone will go "oo, we should watch out for that". The following week, some are prepared for a possible LR, some aren't. When I bring it again, by week 3 of use they are all wise to it and prepared for it if it is doing anything to their armies at all.

I understand what you mean Troa! I don't play at my FLGS unless it's a tournament. I generally only play with a group of 4 of us at my brother's house weekly. We typically change our lists weekly.

When tournaments are coming up, I'll stick with one list and tweek it weekly, but always keep the meat and potatoes. I like the practice of using one list and changing tactics rather than lists. It helps tremendously for tournament practice. As my friends change their lists, it's almost like a tournament spread over a few weeks. (Since they use different lists and I use the same one over a period of 3 games).

The point is, if you like something and practice enough, it can be competitive. I believe that Land Raiders can be very competitive. Some games will require you to play them differently but that's the challenge!

 troa wrote:


In a tournament perhaps not, but in a gaming group people will start taking counters very quickly. It's more a meta issue in those groups.

For me it will go something like this, and does everytime I change my army significantly(I play BA and was doing very assaulty, when I went very shooty one week my opponents were all sorts of confused): This week, I don't have anything resembling an LR. The next week, I bring an LR, and they don't have enough heavy weaponry to deal with it. Since no one uses it, everyone will go "oo, we should watch out for that". The following week, some are prepared for a possible LR, some aren't. When I bring it again, by week 3 of use they are all wise to it and prepared for it if it is doing anything to their armies at all.

.

To this I say don't bring the land raider on the 2nd or 3rd week. Wait until the 4th or 5th week to bring it out again.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Necron wraith's with a destroyer lord can do pretty well against your land raiders (thanks to rending and 2d6 pen on the staff) Gauss weapons can strip hull points.

Its important to review my earlier point, that land raiders should not ecompass the majority of your points. The CSM list still has quite a few points invested in other tools that can deal with the wraiths. In particular the plague marines. If you run the math, you will see that plague marines can actually do rather well vs wraiths. The PMs can deliver a lot of STR 4 wounds due to the poisoned weapons, which causes problems to wraiths. The lord is killing ~1 PM a round hes not in a challenge, since the PMs can FNP his blows.

 lambsandlions wrote:
For eldar serpent spam there is usually some firedragons in those serpents. And tau is a mixed bag. A long strike hammer head is good. Some lists run double fussion crisis suits with puretide chip for tank hunter.

Most of the Eldar lists I've seen have people taking avenger/guardian squads in the serpents, and not stocking up on 3 squads of fire dragons. The reason is simple, dragons are now 22 points each and are not troops. Unless the meta shifts hard into mech, I doubt your going to see more than one squad in tourneys.

 lambsandlions wrote:
My biggest problem with raider spam is that it only works once or twice. After that people start putting in more melta or dedicated tank hunters so they are not stomped again. Unlike say flyer spam where only a few codices have an answer, every codex has an answer to raider spam.

All discussion should be geared for tourneys here, for purposes of a practical tactical discussion. If were talking about hanging out with your friends while having a few beers and laughs, then its much less of an issue.

Exactly, Saythings. Indeed GorillaWarfare, though you can also just use it for a few weeks to mess with them then take things that result in the points being wasted. The real trick is if it's in the group's meta enough that it's always a "will that come out today" thing, they will react to it(think 5 people who have them, and each only brings their LR once a month or so). In the case of only one person having one and only occasionally using it, not so much.

 minigun762 wrote:
I think Varden is onto a good idea for standard pattern Land Raiders. Think of them as a gun platform and counter assault unit instead of just charging forward from turn 1.

Thanks

Of course, it totally depends on your opponent too, but a land raider is a big scary rolling bunker essentially. It has 36" - 48" range guns so it doesn't have to be in your opponent's face. I don't need to roll up and kill all my opponent's troops on his home objective as long as I get all the ones in mid table / my own deployment zone. It forces your opponent to deal with you as opposed to the other way around, and I think that's a good use for these things. It's like in chess or any other game. If you control the center of the board and bully your opponent, you can force them into bad positions to deal with it. A Land raider in the middle of the board on an objective can basically shoot anything that's not in a far corner. It's an incredibly dominant presence that can do many things and control the battlefield.

I was curious so I ran the numbers of a standard pattern Land Raiders vs AC/LC Predator.

I was surprised that the Land Raider beat out the Predator in most situations. AV11/12 was the only place lacking.

I run Drop Pod Salamanders, and have Vulkan cruise up the board with some Hammernators in a Land Raider Crusader. The dominating presence of the Land Raider as well as the more immediate threat of the marines plummeting from the skies frequently combine to make it hard for my opponent to select a good target priority, meaning I wind up down field with both an intact tank AND surviving marines.

Since the conversion to 6th, I think my Land Raider has been destroyed twice? And I use it in almost every game. A little bit of care needs to be taken with them, of course, since they are expensive as heck, but they can be a very useful tool if used correctly.

 minigun762 wrote:
I was curious so I ran the numbers of a standard pattern Land Raiders vs AC/LC Predator.

I was surprised that the Land Raider beat out the Predator in most situations. AV11/12 was the only place lacking.

Can you elaborate more please? I'm curious as to what math you used.

I usually equate a single CSM LR to have the firepower of 1.4 AC/LC predators. The TL on the CSM LRs LCs means they hit more often. 10 shots will hit 8.89 times, where the predators LCs will hit 6.67 times. It's almost 1/3 more firepower per LC on the LR.
The AC is slightly better than the TL HB, but not by much.

The saving grace of the CSM LR is that I view it as coming with a hidden savings of 35 points on a rhino. As an added bonus, the transport is AV 14 all around. The biggest problem I've found is that its one threat on the board instead of 2 -- which means its more vulnerable.

Either way since you can buy just a hair under 2 AC/LC predators for the cost of 1 CSM LR, I view it as your trading some firepower for durability by taking land raiders.

Chaos Land Raiders can get Havoc launchers for that added bit of "oomph" when standing still as well.