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Just curious about this. My friend just ordered the Forgeworld Tau codex (Tauros, I think) so he can use his Tetra's at our FLGS. He said it has a lot of good fluff in it. I've been looking at the Mymeara one as I want to use the Wraithseer in my Wraith army, but couldn't justify 100 dollars for one unit's rules. If it's full of good and canon fluff, however, I'd be much more tempted...
On that note, is anyone aware of a Dark Eldar Forgeworld book?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 04:36:51
It is full of great fluff, which I personally consider 100% canon. I play the Imperial Armored Battlegroup out of IAv1:2e and it not only includes the army list but also the development cycles of every tank in the entire Imperial Guard, notable engagements, famous regiments, camo-schemes, how to paint guide, special characters, data-sheets (like armor thickness, gun calibre, engine power, weight, etc.)
It was certainly VERY VERY worth it for me. I love that book, and sometimes read it recreationally.
GW has a bit of a loose approach to cannon. Basically, if it's produced by one of GW's companies, it's cannon. Or it's not. Make up your own mind.
I don't think anything has ever been said officially about Forgeworld. The approach from the Black Library though is that it's all cannon, but may not all be true... They look at their publications as a telling of things that might happen in the 40K universe, rather than things that did.
All fluff in 40k is canon, and none of it is. ('Cannon,' is a weapon, by the way. 'Canon' was what you meant.)
Even the authors of the Black Library, and the higher ups in the company, will tell you that the conflicting nature of 40k is part of the attraction to the franchise. The vast nature of the setting means that any number of stories can take place there, some of which may seem to contradict others. In addition, it's important to remember that all sources of fluff in 40k are presented from a biased and frequently propagandistic point of view, even when they are presented in 3rd person omniscient format.
Too long; didn't read- Yes, to the extent that you mean, Forgeworld is canon.
The Forge World books deal with single events in the history of the galaxy; claiming that the Tauros Campaign is "the FW Tau Codex" is a vastly oversimplified description. However, the Dark Eldar have as of yet not featured in any Forge World book.
The specific contents of each of the main-series Imperial Amour books (not Apocalypse or Aeronautica, the ones with numbers) includes around two hundred pages, larger than a Codex, containing extensive details about the campaign itself and a whole bunch of pretty pictures in addition to the rules; I can say that Kastorel-Novem was worth it.
The Taros Campaign was featured in the Tau codex, so the codex writers clearly think that it was 'canon'.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
The approach from the Black Library though is that it's all cannon, but may not all be true... .
Quite the opposite. Black Library went to quite some fights with GW-studio to secure their "creative license", allowing them to "take their own interpretation" of the 40K fluff. Black Library, explicitly, is not canon in a very stringent sense.
For example, see Dan Abnett's take on it (starting at about 17:30
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/27 07:59:37
40k's canon is "Whatever you want it to be" You can take anything you want as canon and reject anything you don't want as not canon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 10:39:26
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: 40k's canon is "Whatever you want it to be" You can take anything you want as canon and reject anything you don't want as not canon.
True. But it should also be noted that there are no explicit efforts to keep things contradiction-free between the various sub-companies (GW Studio, BL, ForgeWorld), much less things like FFG. They probably won't go against each other on the obvious big things, e.g. Rogal Dorn won't suddenly become a traitor primarch or an Eldar in a Forge World book, but they don't really care about contradictions "in detail".
Quite the opposite, they give priority to individual author's creative licence over the need to keep it "coherent".
Thus, if you embrace that as canon, you should at least acknowledge the fact that different, possibly contradictory things are in this "canon" and carry equal "value" in the canon.
Something that is often ignored when people use the word "canon" in an argument of trying to give more "legitimacy" to their view of what X can do or did do in the "40K lore" in opposition to someone elses view of what X can do or did do in the "40K lore".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 11:54:32
Kain wrote: 40k's canon is "Whatever you want it to be" You can take anything you want as canon and reject anything you don't want as not canon.
True. But it should also be noted that there are no explicit efforts to keep things contradiction-free between the various sub-companies (GW Studio, BL, ForgeWorld), much less things like FFG. They probably won't go against each other on the obvious big things, e.g. Rogal Dorn won't suddenly become a traitor primarch or an Eldar in a Forge World book, but they don't really care about contradictions "in detail".
Quite the opposite, they give priority to individual author's creative licence over the need to keep it "coherent".
Thus, if you embrace that as canon, you should at least acknowledge the fact that different, possibly contradictory things are in this "canon" and carry equal "value" in the canon.
Something that is often ignored when people use the word "canon" in an argument of trying to give more "legitimacy" to their view of what X can do or did do in the "40K lore" in opposition to someone elses view of what X can do or did do in the "40K lore".
All canon is Imperial Propaganda until proven otherwise.
When proven otherwise, it's likely to be Xeno Propaganda.
What Zweischneid said. Here are a few selected quotes on the subject, coming directly from the people who actually write the stuff.
In case of Forgeworld, one contradiction I noted was that FW writers don't seem to adhere to GW's uniform pattern for the SoB, one book presenting a "blue" Order when they are said to use only the colours red, black and white/silver in any combination.
Also, I'm really not sure I should buy the whole "ricocheting lasers" idea in the Vraks book.
Bottom line: Cherrypick what you like, including your own ideas. Be aware that you will find official/licensed material that conflicts with your interpretation, just as it will contradict other official/licensed material. Choose how closely you want to adhere to which sources.
Lynata wrote: What Zweischneid said. [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462296.page#4527011]FW writers don't seem to adhere to GW's uniform pattern for the SoB, one book presenting a "blue" Order when they are said to use only the colours red, black and white/silver in any combination.
Oooh, source? Is it a good portrayal otherwise?
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
The thing about 40k Canon is that...it's all twisted.
Most of the stories and things we read aren't even true, because it's all written from an incredibly biased Imperial perspective rather than a more omniscient 3rd party. On top of that, it's been re-written so many times and different partakers in the battle or event all have different recollections of it, so you get a lot of different stories about the same thing. I'll bet you Horus remembered the HH differently than the Emperor did.
So really, everything is Canon but nothing is Canon. 40k is not a story, it's a setting.
On that note, is anyone aware of a Dark Eldar Forgeworld book?
IA:11, The Doom of Mymeara has an eldar corsair (space elf pirates) army list, which uses some Eldar and Dark Eldar units. The fluff of the book doesn't really go into them. Like, at all.
The army list is OK, but I think you're better served just using Eldar and Dark Eldar allies. Maybe.
Troike wrote:Oooh, source? Is it a good portrayal otherwise?
It's not really a "portrayal". Just a bunch of tanks. I believe it was in "Imperial Armour vol. II - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition". I have to say, I expected a bit more from the latter.
I think the writers at FW are even more dismissive of the SoB than GW's core studio. Take Siege of Vraks for example - a Cardinal goes rogue and becomes an Apostate. Who do they send in? Not the organisation whose main purpose is policing the Ecclesiarchy, oh no. Guard and Space Marines as usual.
But SoB actually do get mentioned once ... as said Cardinal's former bodyguards who, upon his "sudden" defection, were dragged to his dungeons and tortured until their minds broke, just so whatever remained of them could be rescued by the mighty Grey Knights. Jeeeez.
Lynata wrote: I think the writers at FW are even more dismissive of the SoB than GW's core studio. Take Siege of Vraks for example - a Cardinal goes rogue and becomes an Apostate. Who do they send in? Not the organisation whose main purpose is policing the Ecclesiarchy, oh no. Guard and Space Marines as usual.
But SoB actually do get mentioned once ... as said Cardinal's former bodyguards who, upon his "sudden" defection, were dragged to his dungeons and tortured until their minds broke, just so whatever remained of them could be rescued by the mighty Grey Knights. Jeeeez.
Ugh. :-/
Though I will give FW credit for the Repressor and its updated rules. And the fluff they did for the Repressor was quite cool.
Troike wrote:Oooh, source? Is it a good portrayal otherwise?
It's not really a "portrayal". Just a bunch of tanks. I believe it was in "Imperial Armour vol. II - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition". I have to say, I expected a bit more from the latter.
I think the writers at FW are even more dismissive of the SoB than GW's core studio. Take Siege of Vraks for example - a Cardinal goes rogue and becomes an Apostate. Who do they send in? Not the organisation whose main purpose is policing the Ecclesiarchy, oh no. Guard and Space Marines as usual.
To be fair, Vraks was a Munitorum world not under Ecclesiarchal control, and a fortress that had resisted all previous attacks, so heavily fortified and defended that the Space Marines wouldn't even touch it at first, and ultimately required a specialized siege force of millions of troops and eighteen years of grinding attritional warfare to retake. That it would be outside the scope of the Sisters' mandate is not surprising despite a rogue Cardinal being involved. There was also an explanation as to the Ordo Malleus actively working to keep the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy out of Vraks.
But SoB actually do get mentioned once ... as said Cardinal's former bodyguards who, upon his "sudden" defection, were dragged to his dungeons and tortured until their minds broke, just so whatever remained of them could be rescued by the mighty Grey Knights. Jeeeez.
Again, to be fair, they weren't really a large force, there were only a handful of them. They weren't really "rescued" either..
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Lynata wrote: I think the writers at FW are even more dismissive of the SoB than GW's core studio. Take Siege of Vraks for example - a Cardinal goes rogue and becomes an Apostate. Who do they send in? Not the organisation whose main purpose is policing the Ecclesiarchy, oh no. Guard and Space Marines as usual.
The best way to deal with Vraks (and IA8) is to appreciate the cool models and ignore the painfully stupid attempt at a "story". If you think about the plot for more than a few seconds you realize that pretty much everyone involved is a complete idiot for the sole purpose of creating WWI trench warfare in space.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Vaktathi wrote:To be fair, Vraks was a Munitorum world not under Ecclesiarchal control, and a fortress that had resisted all previous attacks, so heavily fortified and defended that the Space Marines wouldn't even touch it at first, and ultimately required a specialized siege force of millions of troops and eighteen years of grinding attritional warfare to retake. That it would be outside the scope of the Sisters' mandate is not surprising despite a rogue Cardinal being involved.
Why should this be outside of the Sisters' mandate, but within that of the Astartes? The guy is an Apostate Cardinal - to bring such arch-heretics to justice is one of the Sisters' Militant primary duties. That they would (probably) not have done so alone and - just like the Space Marines - would have had to co-operate with the Imperial Guard, as they often do in situations such as these (see Armageddon 3), is of no consequence to the subject of their presence.
Also, Vraks was mentioned to have a fairly popular and important shrine, iirc.
Vaktathi wrote:There was also an explanation as to the Ordo Malleus actively working to keep the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy out of Vraks.
I remember the Ordo Malleus being at odds with the Ordo Hereticus there, but (a) that doesn't mean squat for the Ecclesiarchy, and (b) the Ordo Malleus didn't take command until after the war was already underway, well after a Sororitas strike force should have arrived at the system. In fact, it could be said that the Sisters should have been amongst the first ones to arrive, given that the first shot in this war was fired by an Ordo Hereticus Assassin. This gives the Battle Sisters not one but two independent reasons to be there - as the official army of the Ecclesiarchy, and optionally the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.
Troike wrote:And the fluff they did for the Repressor was quite cool.
That much is true. This is actually a good example of the non-GW fluff I've incorporated into my own perception of the setting.
Peregrine wrote:The best way to deal with Vraks (and IA8) is to appreciate the cool models and ignore the painfully stupid attempt at a "story". If you think about the plot for more than a few seconds you realize that pretty much everyone involved is a complete idiot for the sole purpose of creating WWI trench warfare in space.
Well, at least it was an entertaining read, even though I disagree with a number of details in the execution... I actually like the idea of trench warfare for 40k!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/27 18:40:01
All Forgeworld and Black Library fluff is canon until it's contradicted in GW prime material. Don't forget, Forgeworld is a subsidiary of Games Workshop. Bits of the FW fluff show up here and there in GW prime material (Codices, rulebooks, etc) but tend to focus on new areas of space instead of something like Ultramar or Baal or somewhere else fluff has already detailed. This is, of course, in anything that isn't "historical", like the Badab War or Horus Heresy.
Thanks for all the information, guys. I suppose considering what I know about the formation of 40k canon now, I more meant to see if it was professionally made and intended to tie in, which the answer seems yes.
I really hope that Dark Eldar book does happen. Has anyone read the Doom of Mymeara book? Is the fluff in it about the Eldar pretty good?
tanuvein wrote: Thanks for all the information, guys. I suppose considering what I know about the formation of 40k canon now, I more meant to see if it was professionally made and intended to tie in, which the answer seems yes.
I really hope that Dark Eldar book does happen. Has anyone read the Doom of Mymeara book? Is the fluff in it about the Eldar pretty good?
I didn't like the fluff portraying the Eldar very much. It made them appear pretty weak in truth.
I would wait to purchase it, until they put out a FAQ for it to bring it inline with 6th.
Brother SRM wrote:All Forgeworld and Black Library fluff is canon until it's contradicted in GW prime material.
The people who write it still say you're wrong. And there is no "prime" material either. I have provided quotes with sources above.
Seriously, guys - why do you disseminate false information? It's time to kill-off this urban myth of a uniform canon already. Way too many people got confused by it in the past, and as it seems you're just about to lead another new fan astray. This isn't constructive at all.
Lynata wrote:]Why should this be outside of the Sisters' mandate, but within that of the Astartes?
The Astartes' mandate applies to any Imperial military action, the Sororitas' mandate does not. Even then though, the SM's wouldn't get involved until the IG had landed in force, broken the first defense lines, and already been at war for years. They still didn't engage near the main battle lines until the IG had broken all the way through to the inner defensive positions, and even then only for short tactical engagements. The type of engagements the Space Marines engaged in on Vraks largely (for once) were those for which they were ideally suited, like holding a gap in an enemy line for a short time so it can be reinforced and exploited where normal human troops would have been butchered, or attacking and destroying a spaceport in a blitz attack that the primary IG regiments on the planet could not reach. They showed up for a short time and left until things got *truly* weird and the GK's showed up.
It could also just be a question of numbers. Given the numbers stated regarding their presence, the sisters may be even rarer than Space Marines amongst the Imperium, making their presence in any single battle very unlikely.
Really though, given the nature of the battle portrayed by Forgeworld, I just don't know what the Sisters would have done. They aren't into attritional attacks on fixed positions over open ground, artillery duels, orbital insertions or siege warfare and that was pretty much the nature of that war. I'd much rather see them involved in a campaign involving urban warfare and mechanized maneuvers instead of WW1 trench warfare and the like, that would fit them (at least, in my opinion) much better.
The guy is an Apostate Cardinal - to bring such arch-heretics to justice is one of the Sisters' Militant primary duties. That they would (probably) not have done so alone and - just like the Space Marines - would have had to co-operate with the Imperial Guard, as they often do in situations such as these (see Armageddon 3), is of no consequence to the subject of their presence.
a fair point, though the Vraks story did take pains to point out that the Ordo Malleus was going to great lengths to keep out the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus.
Also, Vraks was mentioned to have a fairly popular and important shrine, iirc.
True, forgot about that.
I remember the Ordo Malleus being at odds with the Ordo Hereticus there, but (a) that doesn't mean squat for the Ecclesiarchy, and (b) the Ordo Malleus didn't take command until after the war was already underway,
If the Ordo Hereticus is being prevented from engaging, the Sisters of Battle, as their chamber militant, likely are as well, regardless of what the Eccelsiarchy wants to do, as they certainly can't countermand the Ordo Malleus, nobody was getting in there except those the Ordo Malleus sent in. Before that, perhaps, but we have no idea the disposition of the Sisters' forces and if it was even possible for them to engage by then.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: Really though, given the nature of the battle portrayed by Forgeworld, I just don't know what the Sisters would have done. They aren't into attritional attacks on fixed positions over open ground, artillery duels, orbital insertions or siege warfare and that was pretty much the nature of that war. I'd much rather see them involved in a campaign involving urban warfare and mechanized maneuvers instead of WW1 trench warfare and the like, that would fit them (at least, in my opinion) much better.
I don't think that they're as quite as specialised as you make out. It's not like if a battle they were in became trench warfare, they'd have to pack up and leave because they can't do it. Remember, they're soldiers first and foremost. As the Ecclesiarchy's standing army, there's no reason why they wouldn't be trained for any type of warfare that they might need to engage in. And I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to engage in battles of attrition, attacks fixed postions or sieges. Those are quite basic, really.
Anyway, I'd say that the Sisters would have a lot to contribute to such a battle. Exorcists are good pieces of artillery, and I can think of little else better than a power armoured fanatic with a flamethrower for storming an enemy trench. Immolators would also be great for clearing out fixed positions of most types. I think it's fair to say that the main reason they didn't show up is because the writers weren't interested in writing them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 22:14:31
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
I don't think that they're as quite as specialised as you make out. It's not like if a battle they were in became trench warfare, they'd have to pack up and leave because they can't do it. Remember, they're soldiers first and foremost. As the Ecclesiarchy's standing army, there's no reason why they wouldn't be trained for any type of warfare that they might need to engage in. And I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to engage in battles of attrition, attacks fixed postions or sieges. Those are quite basic, really.
It's not so much that they couldn't do these things, but they're valuable elite troops, in positional trench warfare where advances are measured in lives per meter, they're wasted and ultimately don't have the numbers. It took millions of guardsmen dying to achieve victory (of sorts...)
Anyway, I'd say that the Sisters would have a lot to contribute to such a battle. Exorcists are good pieces of artillery,
Not in the same way as basilisks are, they're direct fire support units forwarded as tank substitutes, not long range heavy artillery massed by the hundreds firing day and night at targets beyond visual range.
and I can think of little else better than a power armoured fanatic with a flamethrower for storming an enemy trench.
The question is, how many sisters are there and how many do they have to lose? Note that the even the Space Marines didn't try to get involved in the artillery battles and trench fighting, ultimately 18 million guardsmen died retaking the planet.
Immolators would also be great for clearing out fixed positions of most types.
True, but again, question of numbers really
[quoteI think it's fair to say that the main reason they didn't show up is because the writers weren't interested in writing them.
That's also possible too, but I don't think they'd have been particularly suited to the Vraks conflict either way, at least not until the Citadel itself was under attack in book 3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 23:20:40
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I don't think anything has ever been said officially about Forgeworld. The approach from the Black Library though is that it's all cannon, but may not all be true... They look at their publications as a telling of things that might happen in the 40K universe, rather than things that did.
I love this explanation, it fits so well to the way 40k is presented. The idea that there are so many stories and accounts that some are bound to be true and some are bound to be disprovable and still others are just legends of the ages.
But yes, as far as the FW books are concerned, it's all just as cannon as the GW or BL books. I'm not aware of the Dark Eldar being in any books, although I heard they were mentioned in some of the Eldar books, but I'm not sure.
MY ARMOR IS CONTEMPT
MY SHIELD IS DISGUST
MY SWORD IS HATRED
IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME
LET NONE SURVIVE
I don't think that they're as quite as specialised as you make out. It's not like if a battle they were in became trench warfare, they'd have to pack up and leave because they can't do it. Remember, they're soldiers first and foremost. As the Ecclesiarchy's standing army, there's no reason why they wouldn't be trained for any type of warfare that they might need to engage in. And I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to engage in battles of attrition, attacks fixed postions or sieges. Those are quite basic, really.
It's not so much that they couldn't do these things, but they're valuable elite troops, in positional trench warfare where advances are measured in lives per meter, they're wasted and ultimately don't have the numbers. It took millions of guardsmen dying to achieve victory (of sorts...)
Anyway, I'd say that the Sisters would have a lot to contribute to such a battle. Exorcists are good pieces of artillery,
Not in the same way as basilisks are, they're direct fire support units forwarded as tank substitutes, not long range heavy artillery massed by the hundreds firing day and night at targets beyond visual range.
and I can think of little else better than a power armoured fanatic with a flamethrower for storming an enemy trench.
The question is, how many sisters are there and how many do they have to lose? Note that the even the Space Marines didn't try to get involved in the artillery battles and trench fighting, ultimately 18 million guardsmen died retaking the planet.
Immolators would also be great for clearing out fixed positions of most types.
True, but again, question of numbers really
So numbers seems to be your main criticism, and that's a fair point. Though Sisters would probably be above the "drown them in bodies" approach of the guard, and would probably stick to smaller, more tactical strikes.
But back to the numbers, personally I'm not sure that they're as sparse as the earlier material says... I dunno, it just seems like there'd be a lot more than a few thousand per main Order. The Imperium is a stupidly vast place, so there's going to be a lot of people passing through a lot of Schola Progeniums, and lot of Ecclesiarchy property to defend.
The Lexicanum also puts their numbers at "tens of thousands", though I'm not sure exactly what they're citing for that. Possibly the 6e rulebook, it seems.
Anyway, personally I'm unsure about their numbers and would prefer to see what a new SoB codex had to say about it. Guess we can continue this when another one of those rolls around.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
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