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As the title says, what are your thoughts?

I feel the dudes are just way too good for the points with their bladestorm guns and bs 4.

First off bs 4? So these militia are just as accuate as avengers? Guys that have dedicated their life at ranged combat, well they must be crap at thier job if farmer bob can shoot just as well.

Bladestorm this just smacks as op, so there's a chance this basic weapon can be ap2? Your telling me these little disks can in face have the same ap value as a lascannon? A weapon designed to take out tanks, but oh wait it dosnt hurt vehicles.

I would love to know what other armies have a basic squad that can fire 20 shots, hit on 3s and have a 1 in 6 chance to insta kill maries/terminators (ok they get there 5+) but you know what I mean.....

Oh and they can run and shoot wtf

Don't get me started on wave serpents

Daston wrote:
As the title says, what are your thoughts?

I feel the dudes are just way too good for the points with their bladestorm guns and bs 4.

First off bs 4? So these militia are just as accuate as avengers? Guys that have dedicated their life at ranged combat, well they must be crap at thier job if farmer bob can shoot just as well.

Bladestorm this just smacks as op, so there's a chance this basic weapon can be ap2? Your telling me these little disks can in face have the same ap value as a lascannon? A weapon designed to take out tanks, but oh wait it dosnt hurt vehicles.

I would love to know what other armies have a basic squad that can fire 20 shots, hit on 3s and have a 1 in 6 chance to insta kill maries/terminators (ok they get there 5+) but you know what I mean.....

Oh and they can run and shoot wtf

Don't get me started on wave serpents

They also are only T3 and have a 5+ ward save so if you sneeze on them they will die. And yes they have rending against infantry but they only have a 12inch range so if you sit back and shoot it does help against them.

But as to the title of your post yes I think Guardians are great and can compete with Dire Avengers for troop slots (even after the FAQ nerf where scatter lasers no longer give the Guardian Defenders Twin Linked). Are the OP like you are hinting? No, not by a long shot.

As already mentioned by previous poster: no, they are definitely not OP.
You could basically ask yourself what other armies have basic troops that units that cost so much while being so easy to kill and what other basic troops have such a short range while being a shooty unit. And I mean good, usable units, not some overpriced crap that nobody ever takes.

You can't just look at power output and ignore all the other aspects of the unit. 10/10/10, 200 point Vendetta with 24" guns would not be OP by simply having three tl S9 AP2 shots.

They're BS4 because all space elves are, by default, BS4.

And yeah, were we talking about guardian jetbikes, which get all that with +1Sv, +1T, and a great deal more mobility, I might see your concern, but regular guardians? They're crappy light infantry with a short-ranged defensive weapon that happens to be rather good against monstrous creatures before they rip your face off. There's nothing particularly overpowered to that.

Really, there isn't THAT much difference between an eldar guardian and a dark eldar warrior.

that's the way the game is going. anything and everything can shred power armour, anything that cant is usually avoided and not taken.

power armour is basically turning to crap. the AP all or nothing system is garbage.

Well, they could be used to sit on a home objective defending it against outflankers or deep strikers. But for this I'd take a full squad so that it will not break easily.
Otherwise, I'd still prefer Dire Avengers since their guns have a greater range.

Well here are the reasons why this is the worst subject to be talking about:

!: In order to survive the eldar must train every citizen intensely. The reason that dire avengers are more advanced and are in a higher level of command is because they are trained in more advanced aspects of eldar technology. For example heavier armour. Guardians use mesh armour (which confers a 5+ save). Dire avengers however use aspect armour. This means they need to be trained in the art of manoeuvrability whilst wearing heavy armour. They also need training with the longer ranged more complex avenger pattern shuriken catapults.

2: Bladestorm is not op you fool. Yes it is good but while a group of guardians may kill a couple of terminators they will still get killed by the ever impending doom of the 5+ armour save. A unit of guardians isn't going to stand much of a chance as a unit of space marines tears them to shreds with rapid fire bolters. And those little disks your talking about they may seem little but shuriken weapons set to automatic can fire up to 20 rounds per secon not to mention that the disks ar mono-filament so they would reduce your insides to a gory soup in a matter of seconds.

3: And what other armies can take units similar to guardians? Well I think your ignoring the fact that 1: they have 5+ armour saves 2: they have 12 inch range weaponry and 3: they are toughness 3.

4: And why oh why is running and shooting in the same phase in the slightest bit op? It adds a whole new tactical game for the eldar to use. Running up the field to pop off some shuriken rounds may seem cool but in the end they ARE guardians and they ARE being left out in the open to be eaten alive by ap 5 weaponry.

Go complain about something worthwhile talking about.

5: and wave serpents? Dude shut up...just shut up.

To me, it sounds like someone just got it handed to them by Guardians and serpents because the Eldar aren't as weak as they were before and they were underestimated because of that....

There are a severe downsides to their high damage output, as outlined above, but are now at least worth taking.

It's a revamped army, they won't fall like flies anymore (well they will, but they'll go down fighting now) so adjust tactics and deal with it.

As for wave serpents, come back when you have a dedicated transport that costs 150 points-ish. Our wave serpents cost the same as our battle tanks, with armour 12 which is susceptible to hull point stripping. The shield is a cool gun, and a cool shield. The eldar army works incredibly well in synergy, adapt and fight it, don't complain because you were destroyed by a player who is probably used to dealing with sub-par units and now has good units.


Von Chogg

No they aren't. They are just veteran guardsmen with a better gun. If you cannot kill veteran guardsmen, you fail as a tactician.

I personally think the shield on the serpent should be 24" and not 60", but other than that it's not OP. Then again I play crons, so I have the RoF for it.

Yep, someone just got their rear end kicked because he was expecting the old, really crappy and overpriced Guardians.

No, they're not OP.

Daston wrote:
..... well they must be crap at thier job if farmer bob can shoot just as well.

Sigh.

I'm getting a bit sick of this being repeated ad nauseum since the new Codex hit, it has to be one of the single biggest misconceptions in 40k. Here are some quotes from Lexicanum (yes, I know its not ideal but it illustrates the point):

.... Eldar also have much faster metabolic rates than humans, and their cardiac and neurological systems are more advanced. These traits manifest in their vastly heightened reactions and agility compared to humans. To them humans seem to move in slow motion with a certain degree of awkwardness, while to humans the Eldar can move with distracting grace and can be blindingly fast in combat.

The Eldar were "adopted" (or alternatively "created") by the mysterious Old Ones. The Old Ones, a race now long extinct were embroiled in a long war against the C'tan and their slaves the Necrontyr and, being desperate, raised many warrior-races.

So at a base level, they're physiology makes them inherently superior to a human, perhaps placing them from birth on the level of an Astrates.

They are long-lived by human standards, and most will live more than a thousand years unless they die from accident or disease

Why is this important? Because Eldar have time to tread many paths in their lifetime, in fact they are encouraged to do so. So yes, he *might* be a farmer now, but he could have also been a Scorpion-costumed badass in the past, with more than 300 years of active duty under his belt. Not to mention the massively highly advanced technology he goes into battle with.

Fluff and gameplay-wise, Guardians =/= Elf themed Guardsmen, stop thinking they are.

/Rant off

On a gameplay level, the new Eldar codex has been rebalanced so that while it takes time and effort to bring things together (ie; 5+ save and 12" range to overcome), that if you do manage it, there are high rewards for doing so. This. Is. Their. Playstyle.

I'm a little butt hurt that Guardians got BS4 but Firewarriors stayed BS3. farmer>trained from birth in warfare

We'll probably see BS3 Orks next.

 agnosto wrote:
I'm a little butt hurt that Guardians got BS4 but Firewarriors stayed BS3. farmer>trained from birth in warfare

We'll probably see BS3 Orks next.

Yeah but Eldar have heightened senses and have lived long lives.

Tau are young with no depth perception.

 agnosto wrote:
farmer>trained from birth in warfare

Yes, but Guardian Defender != farmer, so it's all good.
What do you want? Psychic, 200 year old warrior with incredibly high tech < 20 year old fishguy with hooves and bad eyesight? See, not so hard to justify, especially when you don't use *actual* fluff on one side.

Besides, it's not like game stats equals fluff.

The guardians are better now, which doesn't necessarily make them good. They still die when you sneeze in their direction which means whatever they shot had better be dead or the guardians will soon be. They're also scoring units which in many cases means they're target number one. And if you take them they take the place of some more durable scoring unit.

 Macok wrote:

Besides, it's not like game stats equals fluff.

Ah, but fluff is meant to inform the game design of the units, even if sometimes GW epically fails to line each up.

To correctly answer the OP (since I didn't in my last post), I don't see Guardians as being ridiculous, they just have a reasonable threat level now to counterbalance their cost and poor durability. The new Eldar codex does make life more difficult for Marines where before Marines were something Eldar actually struggled with. Even so, still not OP, just a meta shift.

Also, wait till you see Warp Spiders in action.

 agnosto wrote:
I'm a little butt hurt that Guardians got BS4 but Firewarriors stayed BS3. farmer>trained from birth in warfare

We'll probably see BS3 Orks next.

If you had played older 40k, you would've known that orks actually USED to be BS3!

Infact Warbosses could get up to BS5! There's your Dakka!

Is anyone collecting all these tears?

In terms of tabletop ability, no they are not too good.

In terms of fluff, I'd say yes. Not every Guardian is a previous aspect warrior, and an Eldar must re-don their Aspect costume to regain those skills anyway.


Overall it was a "lazy" way to make Guardians better, following into the classic "elf trap" where they have to be better just because. Guardians still have the same issues they've always had, being too short ranged to effectively use their primary weapons and too squishy to get into and survive in that range. In my personal view, all the boost did was make them more expensive, not really make them any better for what you pay for them. Instead of coming up with some way to reflect that Guardians are the artisans, technicians, architects, poets, craftsmen, etc of the Craftworld, they just made them "Dire Avengers, lite".

I disagree that it doesn't make sense. All Dark Eldar have a BS of 4, even Wyches who don't normally partake in shooting. It's just the nature of there skills... regardless, Guardians are still trained. They get some of the same training as Aspect Warriors, there path is merely not that of the Warrior for they've learned to or haven't needed to learn how to deal with their hate, fear and anger yet. Being an Aspect Warrior is more about their emotional state than their physical capabilities. I feel they are sufficiently inferior to the Aspect Warriors in armament and pure versatility to make it feel proper.

As far as being OP goes, I don't think so. They are slightly better per model than my Kabalite Warriors, I feel, but they also don't have the option of a mobile open-topped transport. Within the internal army balance, I think Guardians are still inferior to my Dark Eldar troops, as well as even Vet Guard with there wider berth of armaments. Ork Boyz are too different to compare, in my opinion, though Boyz are the best troops hands down in my opinion. So I actually feel that Guardians are equal too or slightly inferior to the other troops I am familiar with, given internal balance.

Also BS3 on orks? That's absurd. I hope they had a lot less dakka back then. I almost feel cheap throwing 40+ shots from a battlewagon as is. Almost.

 tanuvein wrote:
I disagree that it doesn't make sense. All Dark Eldar have a BS of 4, even Wyches who don't normally partake in shooting.

DE warriors are full time soldiers however, they don't train occaisionally and once in a while get called up for battle, they are soldiers through and through. Wyches are full time professional fighters, even if they're not ordinarily primarily reliant on guns, combat is their profession.

Guardians are still trained.

Yes but it's not something they do all the time or engage in on a regular basis. Not even Imperial Guard Stormtroopers get WS4 BS4, and they're raised from birth in Imperial War academies to be the elite of the elite amongst human soldiers, the best humanity has to offer outside of the Space Marines. The only non-Astartes human troops that really get WS4 and BS4 are DKoK Grenadiers, who, similarly to Stormtroopers, are raised from birth on a deathworld and into one of the most ruthless and brutal IG training regimes from the time they are born, and even then must be proven elite veterans to become Grenadiers.

They get some of the same training as Aspect Warriors

Aspect Warriors are their equivalent of Space Marines, they're an entirely different level of training and experience however. An Aspect Warrior devotes the entirety of their existence to their Aspect while on that path. Aside from biological necessities, it's largely all they do.

You make very sound arguments. I could agree with the argument with regards to their weapon skill, but shooting comes more naturally to Eldar, especially with their superior targeting systems. And to be fair, being raised from birth to fight for a human might still encompass far less time than an Eldar has spent training on a less regular basis.

As for the Aspect Warriors, not all of them are experienced. They may all go through a sort of boot camp, but a lot of them are just the same as the Guardians. Most of their training seems to revolve around learning the specifics of their Aspect, such as stealth for Striking Scorpions or learning the optimum way to disable and burn targets for Dragons. The Dire Avengers are the closest parallel to standard Guardians, but I'm not aware of any fluff that goes into their training.

I still think it mostly comes down to the concept of Eldar being superior in terms of speed and dexterity to humans. In Path of the Outcast we see a relatively untrained Eldar becoming a decent marksman over the span of a few days and he likewise quickly learns to be a very competent swordsman.

Right there's almost 2 conversations here, fluff and rules so lets separate them.

Fluff:
Guardians should be BS4 and better warriors than humans, the Eldar are a genetically engineered species whose sole design purpose was to fight a war against a race of implacable machines, if your designing a race of soldiers at the genetic level you make them good at what they do.
Then they tag hundreds of years of weekend warrior training and potential stints in aspect shrines on top of that natural genetic skill and boom, WS/BS4.

Rules:
Right, Guardians are perhaps the weakest of the Eldar troop choices and frankly not great. 12" range means they will almost never get the first punch they are delicate and rarely get more than 1 shot. As was mentioned Guardian Jetbikes are the premier choice, those are damned good and perhaps worth at least a little complaint, I feel guilty fielding too many frankly. The extra range afforded by Avengers is almost always worth the points and the superior survivability and leadership just compound matters.

As for everything cutting through power armour a) half the dexes in the game are marines, armies need some counter b) Eldar have always been power armour killers, high speed with high hitting power was always their thing.

TBH the biggest problem with giving them BS 4 is the continued stat inflation where BS 3 is supposed to be the normal human average but most armies/units have BS 4 and BS 3 is the mark of shame given to "weak but cheap" units like IG infantry blobs. So Fire Warriors, for example, should be fine at BS 3 because it's the average for a trained professional soldier without superhuman physical characteristics or years of combat experience. But because BS 3 is for "junk" units it feels more like they're a poorly equipped conscript horde and all the Tau players want BS 4 to properly represent their training and superior equipment.

Keeping Guardians at BS 3, on the other hand, does a little to help with this problem and maintain the idea that BS 3 is the standard for basic troops.

I was expecting to see a just kidding coming from the OP, but I guess he is being serious.

 Peregrine wrote:
TBH the biggest problem with giving them BS 4 is the continued stat inflation where BS 3 is supposed to be the normal human average but most armies/units have BS 4 and BS 3 is the mark of shame given to "weak but cheap" units like IG infantry blobs. So Fire Warriors, for example, should be fine at BS 3 because it's the average for a trained professional soldier without superhuman physical characteristics or years of combat experience. But because BS 3 is for "junk" units it feels more like they're a poorly equipped conscript horde and all the Tau players want BS 4 to properly represent their training and superior equipment.

Keeping Guardians at BS 3, on the other hand, does a little to help with this problem and maintain the idea that BS 3 is the standard for basic troops.

There is no "standard", there is bs2 bs3 and bs4.

Tau have bad vision, their troops get bs3.

I feel there are far nastier troops for points avaialable. Necron Warriors for instance.

 Peregrine wrote:
TBH the biggest problem with giving them BS 4 is the continued stat inflation where BS 3 is supposed to be the normal human average but most armies/units have BS 4 and BS 3 is the mark of shame given to "weak but cheap" units like IG infantry blobs. So Fire Warriors, for example, should be fine at BS 3 because it's the average for a trained professional soldier without superhuman physical characteristics or years of combat experience. But because BS 3 is for "junk" units it feels more like they're a poorly equipped conscript horde and all the Tau players want BS 4 to properly represent their training and superior equipment.

Keeping Guardians at BS 3, on the other hand, does a little to help with this problem and maintain the idea that BS 3 is the standard for basic troops.

I am in agreement with Peregrine on this one- and I PLAY Eldar. In the old book i was totally fine with the lower statline on Guardians 3/3/3/3/4/1/1/8. It made sense to me. Many Guardsmen aren't trained soldiers in the way that Aspects and Dark Eldar Warriors are, but they still were every bit as capable in weapons training as fully trained human guardsmen or tau. Initiative 4 was fine as well, Guardians aren't as a whole trained as well Aspects or Drucchi again, and that is fine, even without that extra training they were still as swift as a Space Marine- which we have to remember IS super human. I used to frequently run Tripple Flamer Storm Guardians all the time in 5th edition and they always treated me well.

On the other hand there were a few annoyances. It sucked having expensive single shot weapons on bs3 platforms, and some of the Tanks just didn't make sense, why did the Falcon have a lower BS than the Prism / Spinner for instance. But overall it wasn't that bad, and it was one of the quirks of the army, and the lower statline really served to differentiate Aspect Warriors. Honestly I would have been happier with Guardians (including Jetbikes) keeping their old Stat Line and costing 7 points, then creating a Vehicle Pilot Aspect (to give all the tanks bs4). This seems like it would have been fair enough, and still creates a diversity of the stat lines in the Eldar books instead of just re-using the Aspect Warrior stateline with Guardians.

Guardians are about as trained as a regular human guardsman. Which makes their bs one better than the eldar baseline of bs 3, just as guardsmen and firewarriors are one better than their baseline of bs 2. The payoff appears to be that a craftworlders have a lower "ceiling" above which they can't raise their bs, barring exceptional circumstance, while a guard veteran can raise their bs to 2 over the baseline.

However, this could be explained as aspect warriors not so much training to be better at melee and shooting, but becoming more reliable and controlled. The amount of time they would need to spent training their combat skill torreach bs and ws 5, is the amount done by an exarch, meaning someone lost on the path of the warrior and craftworlds can't afford to lose more of their own to that path. I'd say aspect warriors spent all of their time training at the shrine, but that training is mostly mental training of discipline, meditation and tactics, along with specialist training for the use of aspect equipment. You will notice that aspect warriors have a better LD than normal guardians, kabalites, hagashin or even warlocks.

As for gameplay, guardians are hardly overpowered. They are a great defensive unit, well suited for camping on objectives, with great overwatch, the biggest unit size available to elder, a heavy weapon or two to send a small amount os support fire across the board and the abilitiy to gain shrouded. On the other hand their basic weapon shooting rarely copmes into play outside of overwatch, close deepstriking and the rare unit not making their charge, their shrouding can fail or even fry himself, they run at the drop of a hat, their run shoot run mopstly serves to get them a marginal mobility advantage if they don't want to loose cover, they will rarely make their points back and even a small amount of enemies making the charge can reasonably run them down.

Oh no, these T3 5+ dudes with criminally short range are just too powerful! There's literally no way I can just stand at 24" or more and plug away at them, typically with weapons that will ignore their flimsy armor saves!

Bladestorm is good, don't get me wrong, but Guardians are still easy enough to counter. They're light infantry and die like Guarsdmen while costing a bit more. Chances are, you only just read these rules and are kind of taken aback by them and haven't thought of them outside a vacuum yet.