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I don't think I insulted you, but whatever.

Also, I wasn't talking about Templars, I was referring to Marines in general. I think we can all agree that the Templars codex is a terrible bag of flaming buttholes.

That said, all that cover ignoring Ap2-3 weaponry you were talking about...At least your guys get a 6++ against it, that's gotta count for something, right?

They do if you take the worst vow in the Codex, yeah...

As for the insults:

Belly wrote:

This whole thing is just a bunch of butt-hurt marine players complaining that an Eldar troops choice is viable again, and that sometimes they take away their precious 3+. Please, my guardians get an armour save against CC attacks, and lasguns... That's pretty much it, and I do just fine

I rest my case.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They do if you take the worst vow in the Codex, yeah...

As for the insults:

Belly wrote:

This whole thing is just a bunch of butt-hurt marine players complaining that an Eldar troops choice is viable again, and that sometimes they take away their precious 3+. Please, my guardians get an armour save against CC attacks, and lasguns... That's pretty much it, and I do just fine

I rest my case.

If you're referring to the use of the phrase 'butt-hurt', may I direct you to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/butthurt

Adjective - butthurt (comparative more butthurt, superlative most butthurt)

1.(slang) Overly annoyed, bothered or bugged because of a perceived insult; aimlessly offended; having an overly sensitive ego.

The irony is delicious.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Indeed, that's a ridiculous waste of points for one heavy weapon. I can't imagine any Eldar players bothering with that, there are simply better ways to get heavy weapons.

Considering that's one of the best uses of the only Troops Choice in the Black Templars Codex you might get why I'm rather annoyed at people implying that I'm just a QQing Marine player that can't play without my "precious 3+ save"...

Black Templar troops being bad does not mean Guardians are too good. BT is just hopelessly outdated, newer codices shouldn't have to have duff troops just to balance against a codex that old.

 shamikebab wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Indeed, that's a ridiculous waste of points for one heavy weapon. I can't imagine any Eldar players bothering with that, there are simply better ways to get heavy weapons.

Considering that's one of the best uses of the only Troops Choice in the Black Templars Codex you might get why I'm rather annoyed at people implying that I'm just a QQing Marine player that can't play without my "precious 3+ save"...

Black Templar troops being bad does not mean Guardians are too good. BT is just hopelessly outdated, newer codices shouldn't have to have duff troops just to balance against a codex that old.

True. I've never been arguing that Guardians are too good, I've been arguing that they're not the worst Troops Choice in the game, as claimed by another poster on page 2.

Belly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They do if you take the worst vow in the Codex, yeah...

As for the insults:

Belly wrote:

This whole thing is just a bunch of butt-hurt marine players complaining that an Eldar troops choice is viable again, and that sometimes they take away their precious 3+. Please, my guardians get an armour save against CC attacks, and lasguns... That's pretty much it, and I do just fine

I rest my case.

If you're referring to the use of the phrase 'butt-hurt', may I direct you to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/butthurt

Adjective - butthurt (comparative more butthurt, superlative most butthurt)

1.(slang) Overly annoyed, bothered or bugged because of a perceived insult; aimlessly offended; having an overly sensitive ego.

The irony is delicious.

No, really, there's absolutely no point in using butthurt in the context you did other than to use it as an insult. Your claim, by your own definition above, would be that every single person posting that wasn't on "your side" was doing so out of an overly sensitive ego. When no one's gone for ad hominem attacks earlier in the thread, that is beyond being just a percieved insult.

Ah, we've moved on from the OP. Apologies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

No, really, there's absolutely no point in using butthurt in the context you did other than to use it as an insult. Your claim, by your own definition above, would be that every single person posting that wasn't on "your side" was doing so out of an overly sensitive ego. When no one's gone for ad hominem attacks earlier in the thread, that is beyond being just a percieved insult.

Alright then, I apologize for using it in that previous context. I didn't think you'd get so butthurt about it.


Back on Guardians, do people have an opinion on Storm Guardians? Is there any situation they might be a good choice? Would that situation include the use of the power weapons?

I'm of the mindset that the only viable option would be the 10 man / 2 flamers in a serpent build that saw some use in the previous codex. Fusion guns certainly are an option now with BS4 however.

I'd assume that 10 with two special weapons would be somewhere around 100 points, yes? In that case I'd agree with you, although I'd probably prefer the Fusion Guns; it's not like there's a lack of anti-infantry shooting in the Eldar Codex.

I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Oh no, these T3 5+ dudes with criminally short range are just too powerful! There's literally no way I can just stand at 24" or more and plug away at them, typically with weapons that will ignore their flimsy armor saves!

Bladestorm is good, don't get me wrong, but Guardians are still easy enough to counter. They're light infantry and die like Guarsdmen while costing a bit more. Chances are, you only just read these rules and are kind of taken aback by them and haven't thought of them outside a vacuum yet.

Think about 20 Guardians with 2 shuricannons sitting on one home zone objective. Suddenly emerging enemy units with be surprised by the fire power (bladestrom) these little poets and philosophers will have.

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

Cheap fusion guns. Put them in a wave serpent, profit.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

Cheap fusion guns. Put them in a wave serpent, profit.

But for the amount you're paying for 10 guardians, 2 fusion guns and a WS....you could get 5 fire dragons and a WS for the same price. If I wanted an AT unit I'd always make that choice (or go a bit higher for standard Wraithguard)

 shamikebab wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

Cheap fusion guns. Put them in a wave serpent, profit.

But for the amount you're paying for 10 guardians, 2 fusion guns and a WS....you could get 5 fire dragons and a WS for the same price. If I wanted an AT unit I'd always make that choice (or go a bit higher for standard Wraithguard)

Well, never said it was a good idea

Why 10 guardians? Why not 5? 5 is the minimum isn't it?

The reason marine players (and I am one of them) are so "butt hurt" by Eldar (guardians included) is because the new codex essentially made Eldar laughably good at completely annihilating MEQ and even TEQ armies.

Eldar have exactly 26 different ranged weapons that are capable of AP3 or better (including monofilament and bladestorm). Of those 26, 18 are capable of AP2 or better. Now throw in the large amount of twin-link enabling powers and wargear. On top of all that, Eldar also have 6 different melee weapons that have AP2 capability that strike at initiative, including at-initiative powerfists. Along with the upgrades to guardians (which includes upgrades to all vehicles and jetbikes), it just all seems like its an example of excessive pile-on.

So yes, many marine players are a bit "butt hurt" that a single army has become a complete hard counter to 2/3 of the available armies in the game. Eldar got their identity back as high speed deadly combatants, and for that I'm glad, but until Marines get their identity back as "elite, durable, and deadly" (which won't happen this edition), you are going to continue seeing posts complaining about the latest xenos powerhouse.

Storm Guardians just seem like a waste, that and the upgrade kit only comes with 1 Flamer, 1 Fusion gun and two power swords. Giving power swords to them seems like a waste as well. Two dudes almost cost a model and a half more than banshees.

@Cthululs Spy -no guardians/storm guardians are min 10, unless you're referring to DA's they are min 5

 shamikebab wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

Cheap fusion guns. Put them in a wave serpent, profit.

But for the amount you're paying for 10 guardians, 2 fusion guns and a WS....you could get 5 fire dragons and a WS for the same price. If I wanted an AT unit I'd always make that choice (or go a bit higher for standard Wraithguard)

Fire Dragons aren't scoring and Wraithguard are quite a bit more expensive and aren't scoring without a Spiritseer.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd take Storm Guardians.

Cheap fusion guns. Put them in a wave serpent, profit.

But for the amount you're paying for 10 guardians, 2 fusion guns and a WS....you could get 5 fire dragons and a WS for the same price. If I wanted an AT unit I'd always make that choice (or go a bit higher for standard Wraithguard)

Fire Dragons aren't scoring and Wraithguard are quite a bit more expensive and aren't scoring without a Spiritseer.

A squad of Storm Guardians that have just got out of their transport are unlikely to be scoring for long

Either you want a troop choice (in which case there are better options) or you want a tank hunter unit (in which case there are better options) no-one is expecting a T3 5+ tank hunting unit to survive after it's first attack.

 gmaleron wrote:
They also are only T3 and have a 5+ ward save so if you sneeze on them they will die. And yes they have rending against infantry but they only have a 12inch range so if you sit back and shoot it does help against them.

But as to the title of your post yes I think Guardians are great and can compete with Dire Avengers for troop slots (even after the FAQ nerf where scatter lasers no longer give the Guardian Defenders Twin Linked). Are the OP like you are hinting? No, not by a long shot.

The FAQ is up? Where is it? The only thing I can find is this: https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

-Dinkins

If guardians could get lasblasters like they could in 2nd i would take them in a min. 24" range would be worth losing rending. I could actually use them for backfield camping without feeling like im wasting points!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only if one subscribes to the classic elf-trap that fantasy systems so often do. There really isn't much in 40k lore to state such with any degree of certainty. They may have much more or may not, either way the Eldar discard their old selves completely to immerse themselves totally in what they engage in now.

Path of the Warrior shows this not to be true. A Path of the Sculptor regresses onto Path of the Dreamer to centre his thoughts without leaving the path.

The mask is just stronger with the Warrior path and unless I recall very poorly training isn't conducted with the mask on. At least not all.

Almost none of the training is done with the mask on. They go into a murder rage if they do so, and it makes a point in a few stories that if an Eldar duels with there War Mask on, they'll try to kill each other.

In fact, the Path series goes to some depths to explain that it's all the previous Paths that make up who they are, and though there behavior may change, there underlying flaws and strengths are the same as well as the abilities and training they learned from those previous paths. That's what makes part of the story so tragic.

Wraithlord wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
They also are only T3 and have a 5+ ward save so if you sneeze on them they will die. And yes they have rending against infantry but they only have a 12inch range so if you sit back and shoot it does help against them.

But as to the title of your post yes I think Guardians are great and can compete with Dire Avengers for troop slots (even after the FAQ nerf where scatter lasers no longer give the Guardian Defenders Twin Linked). Are the OP like you are hinting? No, not by a long shot.

The FAQ is up? Where is it? The only thing I can find is this: https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf

-Dinkins

I'm not sure what FAQ gmaleron is talking about, but just reading the rules for laser lock clearly shows that Guardian Defenders don't gain twin linked from a scatter laser.

Their price and scoring potential is enough to warrant looking at Storm Guardians, at least for me. I think either taking them with Fusion Guns as cheap transport poppers, then cowering behind the wreckage could be a very useful tactic. Particularly using Battle Focus to shoot, then run farther behind cover, hopefully out of LOS.

As far as the flamers go, I'm not so sold. their lack of range on the catapults kinda makes me think opponents won't have to charge, they can just stand back and shoot them off the board.

Power weapons could be an interesting choice, if running with an IC who can soak up a challenge. You then have two power weapons to slash away at the rest of the squad. The down side being their lack of Strength.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Their price and scoring potential is enough to warrant looking at Storm Guardians, at least for me. I think either taking them with Fusion Guns as cheap transport poppers, then cowering behind the wreckage could be a very useful tactic. Particularly using Battle Focus to shoot, then run farther behind cover, hopefully out of LOS.

As far as the flamers go, I'm not so sold. their lack of range on the catapults kinda makes me think opponents won't have to charge, they can just stand back and shoot them off the board.

Power weapons could be an interesting choice, if running with an IC who can soak up a challenge. You then have two power weapons to slash away at the rest of the squad. The down side being their lack of Strength.

Do they have to take power swords? Can't they take mauls and axes?

 Homeskillet wrote:
Their price and scoring potential is enough to warrant looking at Storm Guardians, at least for me. I think either taking them with Fusion Guns as cheap transport poppers, then cowering behind the wreckage could be a very useful tactic. Particularly using Battle Focus to shoot, then run farther behind cover, hopefully out of LOS.

As far as the flamers go, I'm not so sold. their lack of range on the catapults kinda makes me think opponents won't have to charge, they can just stand back and shoot them off the board.

Power weapons could be an interesting choice, if running with an IC who can soak up a challenge. You then have two power weapons to slash away at the rest of the squad. The down side being their lack of Strength.

I'm quite interested in the interaction between Runes of Battle powers and the Storm Guardians. All of the powers are strong choices for them. Spiritseer and Warlock +10 in a Wave Serpent?

Storm Guardians are SO much better now. Gotta' say... they aren't the worst you could do. Lotsa power weapons and special weapons to sling around.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Their price and scoring potential is enough to warrant looking at Storm Guardians, at least for me. I think either taking them with Fusion Guns as cheap transport poppers, then cowering behind the wreckage could be a very useful tactic. Particularly using Battle Focus to shoot, then run farther behind cover, hopefully out of LOS.

As far as the flamers go, I'm not so sold. their lack of range on the catapults kinda makes me think opponents won't have to charge, they can just stand back and shoot them off the board.

Power weapons could be an interesting choice, if running with an IC who can soak up a challenge. You then have two power weapons to slash away at the rest of the squad. The down side being their lack of Strength.

Do they have to take power swords? Can't they take mauls and axes?

I think they can, in which case two Power Axes would be nice to hide in the group.

 Jancoran wrote:
Storm Guardians are SO much better now. Gotta' say... they aren't the worst you could do. Lotsa power weapons and special weapons to sling around.

Since when was a Power Weapon that makes them cost more then the books Actual Dedicated Melee units (You can get a Harlequin with kiss for 3 points more)

 Homeskillet wrote:
I think they can, in which case two Power Axes would be nice to hide in the group.

My version of the Codex states it as "power swords". For me it's a bit overpriced when you take the low strength into account.