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Suite, I stand corrected. Didn't have my codex handy. Either way, could be fun to run them and demoralize your opponent by killing a few Space Marines with cheapo Guardians.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Storm Guardians are SO much better now. Gotta' say... they aren't the worst you could do. Lotsa power weapons and special weapons to sling around.

Since when was a Power Weapon that makes them cost more then the books Actual Dedicated Melee units (You can get a Harlequin with kiss for 3 points more)

Its not a comparison. Harlequibns dont score for one. and for two, they dont score. Two power swords pr unit, that cannot be challenged, is good.

Guardians are a good deal more powerful than their previous incarnation, but not by any means overpowered.

Though, I would have been perfectly happy with previous edition Guardian stats and abilities, but with a catapults of at least 18" range.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Storm Guardians are SO much better now. Gotta' say... they aren't the worst you could do. Lotsa power weapons and special weapons to sling around.

Since when was a Power Weapon that makes them cost more then the books Actual Dedicated Melee units (You can get a Harlequin with kiss for 3 points more)

Its not a comparison. Harlequibns dont score for one. and for two, they dont score. Two power swords pr unit, that cannot be challenged, is good.

That can be shot out with Bolters, I suppose different strokes for different folks, but still..

Apologies if this has been brought up before but I got the impression that things were getting so grim for the Eldar race that the craftworlds no longer had the luxury of a laid back existence where you could get by without combat skills and that more craftworlds had standing guardian armies like ulthwe's black guardians. the only fluff that would support this impression though was in the time line section of the codex on pg.22 under "the sons of khaine".
Of course from a rules standpoint they needed a boost in both abilities and cost because the alternative would be to leave them as they were and make them about 5 or 6 points a model and then we would see guardian horde lists where they would be used to tarpit or overrun the enemy like slaaneshi chaos cultists and I think we can agree that would be counter to eldar thinking and playstyle.

Storm Guardians scoring isn't really much of a factor in the majority of games, though. They have the same problems getting into combat as Banshees do but have less armor and less hitting power, so what makes you think they'll be alive to score if you're using them in an assault role?

Because you time them to approach late game and obviously there is less to deal with THEN. Im not sure I was really trying to engage in a tactical discussion but I can say clearly that they are way better than before.

Pointing out worst case scenarios wont really help anyone understand what they CAN do and CAN be for you. I look at things from the affirmative perspective.

Pointing out the best-case scenario doesn't give an accurate representation of what they can do either. In the majority of games, you'd be better off taking Defenders than Storms. Offensively, they fulfill the same role, which is killing things up close, Storms just happen to be a bit closer. If what you want is specifically a close-combat squad, it's probably best to look elsewhere.

Yeah, they're better than before, but that's not saying a whole lot .

I didn't point out a best case scenario. I just told you facts: Having TWO power weapons that you CANNOT challenge away from affecting the rest of the unit is good. It just is.

Having two special weapons available to you 90 point squad is also good. and thats a fact.

So if you dont want to use them, dont. I dont. But I would and they are WORTH using if your list is built for it. I see no problem with the VALUE here.

 Jancoran wrote:
I didn't point out a best case scenario. I just told you facts: Having TWO power weapons that you CANNOT challenge away from affecting the rest of the unit is good. It just is.

Having two special weapons available to you 90 point squad is also good. and thats a fact.

I disagree with the first part, because you have to pay way too much for that benefit.
Those two power sword guys (no other PW allowed) cost almost 50 points and both kill ~1 MEQ. When assaulting.

In CC your standard C:SM tactical is not much worse at killing guardians than power sword guardian in at killing MEQs. He's often better against other targets. Plus, PW guardians are more expensive (+50%) and tactical has better shooting, is much tougher overall and has all the LD tricks. Once again, that's against lower end tactical which will probably get better in its next iteration.
The sword option is not good.

Standard priced melta on BS4 model OTOH is always welcome.

Yeah but two meltas on 10 Guardians is like the same points as 5 meltas on 5 Fire Dragons, who are also more resilient to bolters and have meltabombs.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Yeah but two meltas on 10 Guardians is like the same points as 5 meltas on 5 Fire Dragons, who are also more resilient to bolters and have meltabombs.

Sure. I was not trying to say that meltagun guardians are a great unit.
But upgrade for 20 points changing anti-tank from abysmal to decent at short range is much better than 30 point upgrade that changes CC from "meh" into "meh".

And yet... they are neither deployed the same nor are they again...both scoring units.

this matters.

 Jancoran wrote:
And yet... they are neither deployed the same nor are they again...both scoring units.

this matters.

Scoring units that can easily be made from scoring to "Dead" easily enough. A hidden power-axe or sword isn't going to stop much from assaulting, aside from grots maybe, and if it's purpose is to hide all game in a Serpant and then come out at the end for a last minute grab...Why do you need a fully kitted out Storm guardian unit?

"easily"? The person using them doesn't know how to keep them alive? Thats a big assumption. They'll fail every cover save? The enemy will be able to fire THROUGH the hull of their Wave Serpent?

You kit the storm guardians because it gives you the flexibility you need. Because Drop Pods need to be killed. Because of a lot of things.

No one here is claiming them to be the second coming. I just think you're over rating their mortality. in 7 games so far with my new Eldar force, I've lost my Guardian Defenders exactly zero times. Target priority protects things also.

Storm Guardians have some nice features. They have a place in the eldar forces for sure.

 Jancoran wrote:
I didn't point out a best case scenario. I just told you facts: Having TWO power weapons that you CANNOT challenge away from affecting the rest of the unit is good. It just is.

It just is...if you take it out of context. But when you look at the whole package who cares? They are S3 for one. They are also an assault unit in an army that shoots better in a game where shooting is more powerful than assault. Plus they are also expensive.

You are complaining about people giving worst case scenarios however you are giving best case scenarios while adding in blanket statements formed from your opinions alone and calling them 'facts'.

I'm a marine player but I don't think they are overpowered, nor are they close to the worst troop choice in the game.

I'd be running a few small units of them.

Obviously terrible at standing static trading shots at the enemy. They have their uses against melee units though, esp ones that have been knocked out of their transports (which eldar has to tools to do easily) and are footslogging towards the lines.

They need to be used as the Eldar army is designed to be played, fast and agile. Been able to move > shoot > run is a very strong ability. When those Tacticals drop out of that rhino mid field you shouldn't be standing in the open trading shots, you should be walking infront of the walls, firing, then running back behind the wall into cover, or better yet out of Line of Sight. Using your mobility to kite incoming melee units, and if you cant kite them use the unit to get in the way of something more important. If they ignore the unit then they run the risk of that AP2 dropping models.

Lmao, love the "but our guys are trained from birth" argument from some of these posts... By the time your best warriors die from old age, elves haven't even come of age and still have decades worth of training (path of defender and path of warrior two very different things, to an eldar learning to use shuriken weapons is as important as knowing how to open a door... Which is probably a path on its own sad to say)
Point is your trained from birth means gak when your dead before you've had half the training an elf can receive before he gets laid

HB razorbacks are making a comeback in my meta. Chewing up Firewarriors, Kroot, and half the Eldar make the worth it again. Not to mention the odd Ard Boy or what not.

Godless-Mimicry, its simple.

Either
A. It is better to be able to take two power weapons or
B. it is better to only have the option for one.

See how simple life is when you think about it? At all?

it is a FACT that A is true. Argue yourself blue in the face. But if you dont want to take them: cool. One thing I am trying to get better at as time goes by, is to just LET your opponents assume bad things about your army. it can only end well for me. Thats how underestimation usually ends.

Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".

 zedster40k wrote:
Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure they can deal out the hurt at 12" but with T3, guardsmen will kill them with pebbles if they stay at 24".

If only there were some sort of long-range, high-strength good ROF weapon that ignored cover in the Eldar Codex to deal with those pesky guardsmen...

In what situations is it worth it to go with Dire Avengers instead? The extra armor save really doesn't seem worth it (whatever kills 3+ will kill 4+).

 Ailaros wrote:

Really, there isn't THAT much difference between an eldar guardian and a dark eldar warrior.

One is a botanist that has been conscripted to fight for the craftworlds defense
One is an SM freak who has trained for a thousand years to be a violent pirate assassin and lives only for the pleasure of battle.

seems pretty much the same.

But when an IG guardsman survives a battle he becomes a Veteran, gets +1 BS and access to a bunch of weapons and special rules.

I wish they had kept Guardians and Jetbikes at WS3 BS3 but made Storm Guardians WS4. Would have been more fluffy and seperated the types better. Also I would have given BS4 to all the Tanks and Vypers(not War Walkers) since these platforms have dedicated gunners with all the targeting systems shown on the models. Would have made alot more sense in my mind.