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Like it says in the title, how are you expected to do this? 3+ rerollable armour and cover saves whither away all my shooting. The best answer I've found thus far is assaulting them (and they've got to get into close range in order to shoot at you so this is actually not entirely unreliable). However, this is fine and dandy for my Space Wolves, but far more problematic for my shooty Guardsmen. Aside from Heldrakes (the obvious counter), is there good shooting or assault counters to Fortuned + Concealed Windrider Jetbikes that I haven't thought of yet?

Ally with tau or load up on heavy flamers, they'll still get the armor save but no cover...hmmm isn't the flamestorm cannon on one of the land raiders ap3 or did I dream that? In any event, a couple of markerlight hits and an overcharged ion cannon shot will hit 'em pretty hard (ap3). Markerlghts remove cover and the overcharged ion cannon is S8/AP3..

Ally with Necrons and run a death & depair unit in a night scythe. Granted you can only get one unit but boy can they screw with units like Jet bikes. The trick is the Abysal staff the despairtek carries. It's a AP2 flamer template that wounds on 2s on units that are marked by the deathmark unit. Otherwise it's a S8 v average leadership which may not be bad on LD7 or 8.

For IG, Colossi. AP3 ignores cover large blast.

Psychic powers - Misfortune & Perfect Timing will do the job nicely. It's doable if you run multiple Rune Priests.

Lets see,

Auspex weakens their Jink Save so any SM armies that can take them get in close with some AP3. They can't fortune what they can't save. However I don't think Space wolves get that which is too bad since they are a CC army, that would be perfect wargear for them.

Any Template Weapons will completely kill the cover save. Since we're talking Eldar as your opponents, regular Flamers will be more efficient than Heavy Flamers.

There are two really potent sets of powers a Rune Priest can take to deal with this. In codex you can take LL and Tempests Wrath(Which will wreck his jetbikes). Using the powers in the BRB, you can take Presience and Psychic Shriek(Which denies Armor saves). Also don't forget SW have some of the best Anti Psyker wargear in the game. A strategically placed Rune Priest on the front lines can ruin the opponents day. Doubly so if its Njal. Further more his conceal relies on an Ld8 test so he'll fail it more often than you'd expect

Take Eldar allies and smack him with Dark Reapers. They Ignore Jink and are AP3. Bada-boom! Best Heavy Weapons team in the game to date.

Staying completely in Codex, I would suggest drop pods with a double Heavy Flamer Dreadnaught(Venerable is your choice) or Grey Hunters w/ Flamers. You can also take Logan with Long Fangs with Heavy Bolters and a Flamer on the Squad leader and march them across the board. Stick a Rune Priest on them to give uber Psyker protection and some power versatility (Prescience/Psychic Shriek or LL and Tempests Wrath)

Don't Space Wolves still have their all-powerful 4+ denial from Runic Weapons? That I would think is your best bet - stopping the unit from getting either Fortune or Conceal in the first place. Take a couple of Priests to lessen the chances of losing that roll early by having the model dying.

You can then also roll for Misfortune and Perfect Timing to really put the boot in...

Well, to start, they are relying on a LD8 psychic power for conceal. Also, fortune has to be rolled on the table. With 3 chances, you still have a 33% chance of not getting fortune. So somewhere around 50% of any individual game turn on a random game they will not have conceal up and fortune up. Pretty bad chances if he is trying to rely on this.

To start, grab a manticore or two and drop pie plates on the farseer's head. On a direct hit you are probably getting 4-5 models and you have D3 shots per manticore. ID the farseer and the unit is pretty well done.

The whole windrider unit really isnt putting out that much firepower. Hes spending 130 on 6 jetbikes, 120 for a farseer, and 55 for a warlock. for a bit over 300 points he has 8 S4 6 S6 and 2 S9 AP- shots. That really isnt a lot of firepower for that cost. You can probably afford to ignore it until conceal fails. It will fail once every 3 turns on average so it shouldnt be long. Shoot the jetbikes only with the things that dont have better targets.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
For IG, Colossi. AP3 ignores cover large blast.

Ah I was actually thinking that one myself, couldn't remember if it was the Colossus or Medusa though.

 Super Ready wrote:
Don't Space Wolves still have their all-powerful 4+ denial from Runic Weapons? That I would think is your best bet - stopping the unit from getting either Fortune or Conceal in the first place. Take a couple of Priests to lessen the chances of losing that roll early by having the model dying.

You can then also roll for Misfortune and Perfect Timing to really put the boot in...

Yeah Rune Priests are great at the moment, the only problem is that the Bikes can skirt around them with their 12" move and battle focus and still be in range to shoot.

Uhh, Bikes atm benefit in no way from Battle Focus. Bikes don't run, they move flat out. Battle Focus only mentions running and shooting so that threat is negligible.

You can also do a FomT order with Guard, forcing him to re-roll him successful cover saves..bu yeah- get ignore cover weapons and open up

S.K.Ren wrote:
Uhh, Bikes atm benefit in no way from Battle Focus. Bikes don't run, they move flat out. Battle Focus only mentions running and shooting so that threat is negligible.

Odd, since Windriders have the Battle Focus rule... I'm wondering if they're going to have to FAQ that.

Yeah, the consensus is that its there as a typo because normal guardians have it. It would be kinda OP to have jetbikes that can move then shoot n' scoot. Then again, Eldar is my main army. I wouldn't mind a bit more cheese.

S.K.Ren wrote:
Yeah, the consensus is that its there as a typo because normal guardians have it. It would be kinda OP to have jetbikes that can move then shoot n' scoot. Then again, Eldar is my main army. I wouldn't mind a bit more cheese.

Eldar jetbikes can already Move, Shoot and Scoot even without Battle Focus. Not nearly as far, obviously, but they can still do it.

I still think the best solution is to assault. Your Guard blob will probably do the job just due to the overwhelming number of hits. Jetbike squads are typically taken in groups of about 6 (usually to get 2 cannons). A 20 man IG blob should be able to win a round of combat against 7 jetbikes, and forcing a morale test against LD8 is all in your favor.

If you are repulsed by the idea of assaulting, then you need templates or abilities that remove cover. Even then, you'd need AP3 along with that, which is not commonplace across all armies. I therefore refer back to Solution #1: charge!!!

Bane wolf?

I guess Colossus is the answer for guard.

Blast Masters, AP 3, Ignors cover.

Chrysis wrote:

S.K.Ren wrote:
Yeah, the consensus is that its there as a typo because normal guardians have it. It would be kinda OP to have jetbikes that can move then shoot n' scoot. Then again, Eldar is my main army. I wouldn't mind a bit more cheese.

Eldar jetbikes can already Move, Shoot and Scoot even without Battle Focus. Not nearly as far, obviously, but they can still do it.

Oh you mean the move during assault? I guess that is true.

A rerollable 3+ save isn't that much better than a regular 2+ save. Just think of them as T3 terminators. It shouldn't be that big of an issue, really.

Or use a colossus.

 Ailaros wrote:
A rerollable 3+ save isn't that much better than a regular 2+ save. Just think of them as T3 terminators. It shouldn't be that big of an issue, really.

Or use a colossus.

I guess it's mostly because I'm not used to them and so when I try to put a ton of fire into them I am greeted with maybe 1 casualty. And also because it was Night Fighting on Turn 1 and so he had rerollable 2+ cover saves.

There's also the fact that I really suck with Guard...

In fact, everything that ignores cover is a serious threat to a Jetseer Council.

 Ailaros wrote:
A rerollable 3+ save isn't that much better than a regular 2+ save. Just think of them as T3 terminators. It shouldn't be that big of an issue, really.

Or use a colossus.

The only issue being that a full Council has a pretty good chance of getting Protect, and at that point they actually have 2+ normal, 3+ cover and a 4+ invulnerable, rerollable with Fortune. They are also T4 on bikes, not T3. There really isn't much which really threatens that, you need a silly number of shots to get through 2+ re-rollables and unless you are Tau most Ignore Cover weaponry is either short range templates (i.e Flamers, which you can avoid and don't fear in the first place) or long range pie plates (which you spread to minimise damage, but still get a 4++ or possibly a 2+ against anyway)

Fortunately their damage output is pretty low, they don't hurt much with shooting and only have 1A base for the entire unit. If they don't have Hit and Run (or you actively try and kill whatever character is giving them Hit and Run) then you can easily lock them in combat with a blob unit (or even something like Terminators, since they can struggle to get through the 2+ saves) and ignore them for the rest of the game.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

S.K.Ren wrote:
Uhh, Bikes atm benefit in no way from Battle Focus. Bikes don't run, they move flat out. Battle Focus only mentions running and shooting so that threat is negligible.

Odd, since Windriders have the Battle Focus rule... I'm wondering if they're going to have to FAQ that.

It's so that if a Characte on a bike joins an infantry unit the infantry unit can still benefit from Battle Focus.

The problem with that is while having Battle Focus allows for the unit to run and shoot, Run doesn't allow the unit to run because it requires the 'Unit' to run and Bikes can't run, they Turbo-boost. There are a lot of things that need Errata-ing. I hope something comes out soon.

Battle Focus has no effect on bikes, and says so in the rules. The reason it's there is a flavour thing, as a Farseer who gets a bike still has Battle Focus, but he can't use it but the person himself would be capable of using if it if he were on foot.

As for the tactic, 3+ rerolled slightly tougher than a 2+, but not that much so. If you have a way of stripping cover with an AP3 or better weapon, that would do the trick.

Otherwise, power weapons in close combat would deny their saves, but first you must catch them.

You don't kill them, you just lie down and let the inevitable happen.

Joking aside, Chaos have probably got the best weapons for offing them. Death Chickens with Baleflamers and Blastmasters will make a mess, unless they're spaced out (or Protected). Or try to mince them in combat, if you can get near enough.

Failing all else, there's always our old friend: sheer weight of fire. Statistics will eventually come through and saves will be failed....

Also, don't forget the GK Stormraven... As per the FAQ, if a missiles blast even brushes against you, you are taking a perils... on a 1 W model...

Baal preds destroy jetseer councils. Fast vehicles with scout and ap3 flamers turn this off nicely.

SaganGree wrote:
Also, don't forget the GK Stormraven... As per the FAQ, if a missiles blast even brushes against you, you are taking a perils... on a 1 W model...

This. Mindstrikes shred Seer Councils.

Other things to consider would be a Riptide with a buff Commander and a deck chair of Kroot snipers. Space Marine Librarians with Null Zone are pretty handy as well.

Null zone isn't going to help much against the cover saves. If you're facing 2/3+ fortuned cover I think you really need to get around the cover first. There are tons of weapons that ignore cover but you really need to ignore 3+ armor too in my opinion. A fortuned 4++ is nice, but not good enough to roll against a lot of times on expensive Warlocks. That means AP3 flamers, vector strikes, army-specific weapons like blast masters, and melee.

In melee either volume of attacks or moderate amounts of power weapons can work, but I think because the Council can pack so many blessings and maledictions it's on the opposing player to judge how the combat might go if they get a lot of psychic powers laid down on them. It could be a real all-or-nothing gamble to charge them since they may be hoping to win combat by one and then sweep you using Ld debuffs, for example. Still, charging is better than getting charged because they don't have many attacks at all.