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Just thought of this situation, say for instance that my riptide has charged a enemy land raider and smash attacked it. In the first turn I managed one pen that resulted in an immobilise result. We then move into the enemy turn and go through the combat and the tank still lives but is unable to drive off because of the immobilise. Now being back to my turn can I attack and then thrust move away even if do or don't destroy the vehicle?

After all you can't be locked in combat with a non walker vehicle and the only restrictions that exist for a thrust move are not being locked in combat or making a charge.

Just curious.

I see what you are thinking, but it is either one or the other. The Hit and Run roll is what would give you the capabilities to hit the tank and roll out.

No you can't.

pg 47:

"A Jet pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2d6" in the assault phase"

Then there's the second paragraph: "When jetpack units move in the assault phase and do not charge..."

Besides, there's already a special rule that allows you to move after charging and resolving your attacks. It's called hit and run.

Dastrike wrote:
I see what you are thinking, but it is either one or the other. The Hit and Run roll is what would give you the capabilities to hit the tank and roll out.

Hit and run requires you to be locked in combat, you can't hit and run a tank.

But you charged two turns before and you cannot be locked in combat by a non walker

The rules for the Jetpack Thrust move and combat with non-walkers don't conflict here, as (rightfully pointed out already) you don't get locked in such combats, and you don't have to charge again if neither model moved (Successive Turns, page 76). Therefore, at the moment this works. It may not stay that way though, so worth keeping an eye on FAQs for.

Where did Hit and Run come into the argument?! The Riptide doesn't even have it.

 Super Ready wrote:
The rules for the Jetpack Thrust move and combat with non-walkers don't conflict here, as (rightfully pointed out already) you don't get locked in such combats, and you don't have to charge again if neither model moved (Successive Turns, page 76). Therefore, at the moment this works. It may not stay that way though, so worth keeping an eye on FAQs for.

Where did Hit and Run come into the argument?! The Riptide doesn't even have it.

It was just a reference to the fact that there is a rule that covers such a move. I did have the brain fart of not being locked in combat with a vehicle.

Movement rules would require you end your movement phase 1" away from the tank, since you're not locked in cc. Then you either 2d6 charge the tank or 2d6 jet pack thrust away

Pg. 76 BRB Successive Turns

You are aloud to stay in base to base

I'd say you can use the Thrust move to move away, but I don't think you can still attack in close combat that turn if you choose to do so. Basically you're charging away from the tank.

I would say no. The thrust move is done instead of charging in the charge sub-phase. Attacks are done in the attack sub-phase. Since you would have to use the thrust move before you attack it would not be possible to get your hits and then thrust.

That sounds so dirty....

But nothing states when a thrust move occurs in can be before or after combat, depending on the order of the controlling player.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
But nothing states when a thrust move occurs in can be before or after combat, depending on the order of the controlling player.

This just sounds like you are trying to hard to come up with a work around to a clearly established rule. Using your example above, you immobilize the LR on one turn, I "believe" you can remain in base to base with the tank as it can no longer move away from you, and you can continue beating on it. (correct me if I am wrong here, dont have book in front of me). But the trust move is used INSTEAD of charging into combat, as per the references above. So get back into assault with the LR or trust away, but not both.

So if we go with the charging back in idea, then each of my turns I would get +1 attacks for charging and if it was a transport vehicle the occupants could overwatch each time.

Super Ready: RAW I would say that you do have to charge back in on your own turn to keep fighting the vehicle.

"Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle during ITS turn may *still fight normally etc*"

ITS can only refer to the vehicle as "units" and "models" are plural, so the correct wording would have been *their*.

Page 76 allows you to hit the enemy vehicle during the enemy turn if still in base contact, but it does not allow you to do so on your own next turn, unless you charge back in.

To fully clear up the timing issue... we're told we can pull off Thrust moves "in the Assault phase". It makes no mention of subphases, start, end, or otherwise - so at the moment you could choose to Thrust even after all combats have been resolved if you wanted to.

Baktru wrote:
Super Ready: RAW I would say that you do have to charge back in on your own turn to keep fighting the vehicle.
"Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle during ITS turn may *still fight normally etc*"
ITS can only refer to the vehicle as "units" and "models" are plural, so the correct wording would have been *their*.
Page 76 allows you to hit the enemy vehicle during the enemy turn if still in base contact, but it does not allow you to do so on your own next turn, unless you charge back in.

This doesn't stop the models from being in base contact, though. The 1" distance rule on page 10 only applies whilst moving, not to models already in base contact who are staying still. So while the above clarifies you can continue to attack the vehicle in its own turn, it doesn't mitigate the permission you already have to strike in your own turn simply by still being in base contact.
...no, you don't have to charge a vehicle to be able to attack it - this is covered in the normal Assault rules. Otherwise if you're *only* going by page 76, no models have permission to make attacks against vehicles in close combat at all.

Super Ready. I am not entirely certain though.

In the text on page 23, the part about Who can fight?

It explains first who is Locked in combat. We already know that the unit surounding the LandRaider is not locked in combat as that is overriden on page 76.

Then the page 23 says, work out whether a model locked in combat is also engaged. So as they are not locked in combat this does not happen.

So in essence I contend that as the unit did not charge this turn (which clearly should work as per page 76) and it is not the vehicles' turn, due to not being locked in combat they are now not engaged and cannot strike blows against the vehicle.

The only way to do so, is to move at least an inch away from the immobilized vehicle and charge it again.


So I am not contending it doesn't stop them from being in base contact (as they indeed don't have to move per page 76), I am contending that there is simply no combat happening in that location as none of the rules that make it so, are satisfied:

1) There was no charge this turn.
2) Nobody is locked in combat, and hence are not engaged.
3) The procedure for assaulting a vehicle on page 76 was not followed.
4) Still be in base contact on the vehicles turn.

That's exactly the part I'm referring to. If being locked in combat is a requirement of attacking then you can't attack vehicles even if you charge, as nothing in the vehicle rules overrides that requirement.

...unless you count the bit about hitting relative to WS, but that isn't dependent on having charged either.

(edit) waaaaait, scratch that. Just checked page 23 and this really nails it. You don't have to be locked in combat to attack, you only have to be engaged - which is defined as the model itself either being in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of a friendly model that is.
We're also specifically told that unengaged models can't attack. It says nothing of models not locked in combat.

In short - being locked and being engaged are two separate things, and only the latter is needed to attack.

Super, my point is this line:

"
At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below."

So if you're not locked, you don't check for engaged. If you're not engaged, you can't attack.

And yes that does mean that with the rules as written, you can't melee vehicles at all. The rules for doing so need an exception added to the above line or a change to 73 to allow models to be either locked during their own assault phase if they charged a vehicle or something.

Mind you HIWPI? You're still in base contact, you can attack.

But I can't honestly say a strict reading of the rules allows one to attack a vehicle in those circumstances.
Or at all, really.

Right, gotcha - I missed that line. In which case, RAW seems to say... vehicles can't be attacked in close combat.
Being able to attack still is HIWPI as well, of course.

Nah guys I think you missed pg. 76 again Successive Turns

Last paragraph says count all models that would normally be able to fight as engaged.

We didn't miss it on page 76 - the trouble is, that entire paragraph refers to the vehicle's Assault phase, and not both.

True, so then would you not have to move from the vehicle in your turn and charge again? Seems more beneficial to your cause as well

Precisely the problem. You're not forced to move away from your existing position - the 1" rule only applies whilst actually moving. It would *usually* be more beneficial to charge back in, but the situation we're looking at in this thread is whether it's possible to attack then jetpack thrust away afterwards.

My brother proposed that the Thrust Move happens at the same time as charging, because the Thrust Move reads...

A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in
combat or charging can move......

If this was the case then you would not be able to attack as you move when you charge, and coincidently you get to attack after you charge.

But if this is not the case and the Thrust Move may be done at any time during the Assault Phases at the controlling players will. If they choose to move at the end after all combat has happened, nothing in the rules says that you cannot move after making a close combat attack except the part that says you must not be locked in combat, which you are not because it is a vehicle.


Feel free to point out anything that is wrong

You got there in the second half of your post. The line you quoted gives a couple of restrictions, but in no way mentions timing. To give a similar example - Turbo-Boost states that you can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing, taking place in the Shooting phase. It's not any specific point in the Shooting phase, so although you're restricted from doing other things later in the rule you can opt to perform the Turbo-Boost as the very first thing you do in the phase, or the very last, or anywhere in-between.

So your saying that it means that if you are not locked in combat or choosing to issue a charge. Therefore giving no indication of timing

Bingo - the only timing given in the Thrust move rule is "the Assault phase".

So if we go with the notion of being able to attack vehicles in your turn ( HIWPI as well) can you make a thrust move after attacking?

Er... isn't that... what we've been discussing the whole thread...?
Depends on how strictly you want to take the RAW. Either you get to do this, or you can't attack vehicles in close combat at all because of the whole locked/engaged thing.