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2013/07/10 03:16:18
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
I'm adding a Harald Deathwolf attachment to my Space Wolves, one because I love Harald's company colors (Red, black and white) and two because its one of the few detailed shoulder bits available for the terminators. Harald's little blurb in the codex says that he always rides a thunder wolf into battle, so I'm going to pick up a kit and make him. I wanted to kit him out with the following:
Runic armor
Belt of Russ
Power fist
Wolf Claw
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Bear
All that plus the T-wolf brings him up to 280 points. That 5 more than Logan, who would add buffs to the army in addition to being super killy. I was wondering if it is worth it to spend that many points on a space wolf HQ?
2013/07/10 03:26:47
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Can't help but think yes its to much, now I don't know to much about space wolves but maybe some of that stuff could be cut to make it less costly?
You make a good point, let me detail the wargear so non-wolf player can tell what it does.
The Thunder wolf makes the lord cavalry, and adds plus one attack, toughness and strength value to his stats.
Power fist and wolf claw combo is self explanatory, all totaled will give the Wolf Lord 7 attacks on the charge, either s5 lightning claw hits or s10 power fist hits.
Belt of russ give a 4+ invuln save
Wolftooth Neckless makes the lord automatically hit on a 3+ regardless of his opponent's weapon skill
Runic armor is a 2+ armor save
Saga of the Bear gives him eternal warrior.
2013/07/10 05:57:13
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
I would say it is a bit much unless he is a 3+ wound model. 4++ invul just isn't that great, though he would be annoying in combat. Also realize using the power first would make him init 1, and you don't get the +1 attack from two melee weapons. Ultimately, my th/as termi squad would devestate him for fewer points.
4500
2013/07/10 06:05:50
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
Fandarel wrote: You can also drop Saga of the Bear depending of you Local Meta.
The Lord is T5 and S10 Weapons are rare.
Also is he very mobile so you can outrun most weapons which have ID rule, like Psiweapons etc
Unfortunately quite a few people at my flgs have jumoed on the tau bandwagon, and if my 280 point wolf lord got killed by a hammerhead or a riptide using smash I would probably strangle someone.
2013/07/10 14:32:59
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
You are correct on specialist weapons. 280 for one model is still a huge points investment.
You can always test it out in a few games, but do some point comparison on what other armies can bring for 280, 'cause that fits just about any HQ out there, and many of those give army buffs or enemy debuffs as well. Plasma is still going to kill your lord quick, if it was even a 3+ invul it'd be more survivable but still risky.
My dev squad, or SS/TH termies, or anything with a decent amount of plasma, is still going to mess him up fairly easily. Tau do have access to plasma so you're looking at a hard fight getting into CC range, especially if he does much and they decide to take AP2 weapons. Asking yourself how much weaponry they use that is AP1 or AP2 is going to be crucial.
4500
2013/07/10 14:38:40
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
jetstumpy wrote: I'm adding a Harald Deathwolf attachment to my Space Wolves, one because I love Harald's company colors (Red, black and white) and two because its one of the few detailed shoulder bits available for the terminators. Harald's little blurb in the codex says that he always rides a thunder wolf into battle, so I'm going to pick up a kit and make him. I wanted to kit him out with the following:
Runic armor
Belt of Russ
Power fist
Wolf Claw
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Bear
All that plus the T-wolf brings him up to 280 points. That 5 more than Logan, who would add buffs to the army in addition to being super killy. I was wondering if it is worth it to spend that many points on a space wolf HQ?
drop the Necklace, he will be hitting on 3+ most of the time anyway
drop the saga of the bear, the number of times you will face str10 or force weapons is rare
those 2 upgrades add what 50 points to his cost and while nice, put too many eggs in one basket. You cannot make him invincible.
Fandarel wrote: You can also drop Saga of the Bear depending of you Local Meta.
The Lord is T5 and S10 Weapons are rare.
Also is he very mobile so you can outrun most weapons which have ID rule, like Psiweapons etc
Unfortunately quite a few people at my flgs have jumoed on the tau bandwagon, and if my 280 point wolf lord got killed by a hammerhead or a riptide using smash I would probably strangle someone.
hammerheads... you should have him hidden in a unit of twc or jump infantry/bikes
riptide, he has to hit, wound, and get through the 4++.
he only has 3 wounds. EW becomes more powerful the more wounds you have, and frankly 3 isnt enough to justify the cost when you already have T5
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/10 14:41:29
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2013/07/10 15:37:50
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
A character on a thunderwolf can never join a unit other than twc or fenrisian wolves. Also, having him run away from force weapons isn't very space wolf sounding.
2013/07/10 15:41:11
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
jetstumpy wrote: A character on a thunderwolf can never join a unit other than twc or fenrisian wolves. Also, having him run away from force weapons isn't very space wolf sounding.
he should aim to kill whatever force weapon wielding guy he is facing before he gets hit. Your standard librarian is either init 4 and AP3 or 4 and will bounce off or is init 1. They are almost all 2 wounds, sometimes without an invunverable save. Use the wolf claw and tear them up before they can strike.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2013/07/10 15:43:48
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
Runic armor
Belt of Russ
Power fist
Wolf Claw
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Bear
I would drop the Belt, Claw and Necklace. I usually run Runic, SS/PF, Saga of the Bear. Makes a dead killy HQ that doesn't die.
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2013/07/10 16:12:19
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
I would not say its too much. I run a trio that kit out that much. They may not always make thier points back, but with a good TWC Body Guard with Sorm Shields makes them tough to kill and will draw alot of fire, way more than their share and there is not much that stops them other than Pie.
If you want to drop somthing, the Necklace and posible the Runic Armor.
IMHO if you are running a lord on a thunderwolf it is due to needing the points elsewhere.(that is why i do it) Also I am a fan of using all your special rules and you lose rending with special weapons. This is my loadout for him: Runic armor, Belt of Russ, Wolftooth Necklace,Saga of the Bear. This makes his save 2+/4++, hits on 3's(necklace is necessary for taking down monstorous creatures), rending(can glance land raiders), eternal warrior, and 7 attacks on the charge at I5.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/10 17:47:55
demonator76 wrote: IMHO if you are running a lord on a thunderwolf it is due to needing the points elsewhere.(that is why i do it) Also I am a fan of using all your special rules and you lose rending with special weapons. This is my loadout for him: Runic armor, Belt of Russ, Wolftooth Necklace,Saga of the Bear. This makes his save 2+/4++, hits on 3's(necklace is necessary for taking down monstorous creatures), rending(can glance land raiders), eternal warrior, and 7 attacks on the charge at I5.
he is going to hit on 3s against most MCs anyway. Bar the avatar, DPs and greater daemons who, might take a little longer because they cannot smash, will still kill him. As they are going to hit on 3s, wound on 2-3s and have a ton of attacks.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2013/07/10 18:51:05
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
Runic armor
Belt of Russ
Power fist
Wolf Claw
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Bear
All that plus the T-wolf brings him up to 280 points. That 5 more than Logan, who would add buffs to the army in addition to being super killy. I was wondering if it is worth it to spend that many points on a space wolf HQ?
Short answer:
Spoiler:
No, its not worth spending that many points.
Long answer:
Spoiler:
First off take a second look at your wargear. There are a few problems.
First the Wolf Tooth Necklace:
You are WS6 and a WTN is only useful against things that are WS6 or higher.
Things that are WS6 include gribblies like Genestealers, who will shred you due to their higher initiative and plethora of Rending attacks. It also includes hard hitting HQs like Abaddon who will eat you alive unless he wiffs his Daemon Weapon roll.
Things that are better than WS6 are all MCs who have too many wounds, too much toughness, and too many attacks for you to stand up against and reliably win fights against.
Basically, anything that isn't a "loyalist" Space Marine and is WS6 or better is probably striking at a faster Initiative, with more attacks than you and all of them require an Invulnerable Save.
Next having both a Wolf Claw and a Power Fist:
This is expensive, just to get +1 attack.
Anything that is likely to challenge you is also likely to be Initiative 5 or better, making the Power Fist the more attractive option anyways.
Anything with a 2+ save defaults you to the Power Fist anyways.
You can only use one weapon, so in any given fight the points spent on the other weapon are mostly useless. 1 extra attack won't make/break anything not special, and most of the special things you'll need a lot more than 1 extra attack to make an appreciable difference.
Taking two weapons is preventing you from taking the superior Storm Shield and forcing you to take the Belt of Russ. Do not underestimate the importance of a 3++ to your survival.
If fluff over function is your thing, the finecast Thunderwolf Lord model is Lord Deathwolf and he has a Storm Shield, so you are doing it wrong.
You picked the right Saga, if you are going to bother with one. I find Eternal Warrior to be well worth it when I take my Wolf Lord. You made the right call with a Power Fist as well, as most scary things will be faster than you regardless so you may as well hit like a freight train. Runic Armor is likewise a smart investment. You'll want to take a Storm Shield. So really, drop the Wolf Claw and Wolf Tooth Necklace and Belt of Russ.
This still leaves you spending 255 points. You can still work, but the game is moving away from super-expensive HQ choices. Even the Rune Priest, considered a bargain still in 6E, is slightly more expensive than Librarians are going to be moving forward. Our Psyker Mastery 1 Rune Priest costs the same as a Psyker Mastery 2 Librarian from the Dark Angels. Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, brings a ton to the table and is only 215 points and is the most expensive HQ option the Dark Angels have.
So in my opinion, in 6E, the game is shifting so you aren't spending 1/4 of the army on your HQ. Space Wolves have always been different in that we get multiple HQ options, but HQ choices don't score and outside of Logan they don't change the army list in a fundamental way for us like they do for other armies. All your Wolf Lord can do is beat face in close combat. He can still be useful, and can support your troops in a way, but he can't do it in some of the amazing ways Rune and Wolf Priests can.
Honestly, what I've been doing since 5E for a Thunderwolf HQ seems to be working out for me in 6E: Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Frost Blade (equal points to Power Fist), Storm Shield, and Thunderwolf Mount. He's relatively cheap at 170 points and nearly as deadly. The one change I may concede is giving him Runic Armor.
But let's say I don't. He's 85 points cheaper than his Wolf Lord equivalent. He is down a Wound, Attack, and Weapon Skill, and does not have Eternal Warrior or 2+ save. Is it really a problem? I don't think so.
Look, Thunderwolf Cavalry are a unit that can put out a lot of pain. But they do not take it well. You have to be careful what you send them into. Unsupported, many units can eat them alive due to their small numbers. Especially if you don't spend the massive points to give them all Storm Shields. You do not throw them at Daemon Princes or Hive Tyrants or even units of Terminators lead by a scary HQ. Not alone. The lists that could pull off that kind of thing took 2-3 Wolf Lords on top of 2 units of 3-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry, and they still softened the target up with shooting before charging in.
But me? I take only 2-3 Thunderwolf Cavalry with my WGBL when I take them at all. Their job is to go massacre basic troops in support of my Grey Hunters. I try not to get stuck in with the "hard" units. I'd rather spend Grey Hunters on them if I have to spend anything at all. My TWC can run around wiping out large units of troops with ease, especially if the WGBL is striking before most troops (works on all but Eldar) get to swing.
I'll take that 85 points and spend it on my Grey Hunters, or towards something else to support my Grey Hunters.
Honestly, what I've been doing since 5E for a Thunderwolf HQ seems to be working out for me in 6E: Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Frost Blade (equal points to Power Fist), Storm Shield, and Thunderwolf Mount. He's relatively cheap at 170 points and nearly as deadly. The one change I may concede is giving him Runic Armor.
But let's say I don't. He's 85 points cheaper than his Wolf Lord equivalent. He is down a Wound, Attack, and Weapon Skill, and does not have Eternal Warrior or 2+ save. Is it really a problem? I don't think so.
Wolf Lord and WGBL pay the same points for FB/SS and TWM. So he's 30 points cheaper than his WL equivalent and loses quite a bit.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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2013/07/11 03:40:14
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
"If fluff over function is your thing, the finecast Thunderwolf Lord model is Lord Deathwolf and he has a Storm Shield, so you are doing it wrong."
Really? I can't kit out my Characters how I want because some box art said so? If that's true everyone who buys a tactical squad box is "doing it wrong" if they paint them anything besides Ultramarines.
2013/07/11 07:03:41
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
My take on it is that you should drop the Wolftooth Necklace and the Saga - I would also swap the Wolf Claw for a Storm Shield, which allows you to drop the Belt of Russ as well.
As was already mentioned, taking the claw AND the power fist winds up being too expensive for just one extra Attack. Not only would the Storm Shield be cheaper, it would give you an even better invulnerable save too.
Runic armour is worth keeping to tank wounds for the rest of a squad of Thunderwolves - just stick your Lord at the front. The Saga costs too much considering the small amount of things that can actually inflict Instant Death outright - even with your local meta. Broadsides don't have S10 rail shots anymore so any Hammerhead shots you do get in can be LOS! off to another model. Likewise, close combat attacks that are S10 or from Force Weapons can simply be allocated to other models first. Losing expensive Thunderwolves this way hurts, but not as much as losing the Lord would.
Lastly, with WS6 it's rare for the Lord to need the Wolftooth Necklace. The absolute worst he'll be hitting at is 4+ anyway. It's cheap enough to still consider taking if you know you'll be fighting things like Daemon Princes, though.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
2013/07/11 08:33:58
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
The advice to spend less points sounds smart, but the posters who said they ran expensive and successful lords at the top sound fun.
In terms of function, I think a smart thing to do would be to model the guy with rare earth magnets and paint up all the possible arms. That way you can play around with all these suggestions and see what works for you.
2013/07/11 08:48:31
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
If you are wondering "did I overdid it?", you usually overdid it.
This is probably true.
I would stay with your original concept, Just go with the Thunder Wolf, Power Fist/Wolf Claw, Belt of Russ and the Saga of the Bear.
Give a try and see how he does, if he underperforms see what the issue it.
If he keeps missing add the Wolf Tooth Necklae.
If he keeps being hit by AP3 Weapons Go to the Runic Armor.
If he keeps getting affected by Psyic powers, add a Rune Priest ot a Wolf Tail Talsiman.
Likewise, close combat attacks that are S10 or from Force Weapons can simply be allocated to other models first. Losing expensive Thunderwolves this way hurts, but not as much as losing the Lord would.
Try running him with fenrisian wolves and wolfkin saga. more ablative wounds but at a lower group toughness though.
If hes meant to be Harald this suits the fluff
~ Krieg 6k
~ Necrons 2.5k
~ Space Wolves 5K
~ :Khorne CSM 2k
2013/07/11 17:43:28
Subject: Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
Hmm, looks like you guys beat me to this post. I've been meaning to ask about using a thunderwolf lord model of mine once I reach 2000 points. Perhaps I'll make him a battle leader and give him runic armor, a power fist, a storm shield, and a thunderwolf mount. That should kit him out at 200 points. I'll then put him in a unit of 3 thunderwolves, maybe with 2 storm shields and 1 power fist. This should leave me with enough points to give a few upgrades to my 3 grey hunter squads.
2013/07/11 18:30:33
Subject: Re:Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf- How many points is too much?
I drop the necklace and the saga. The former isnt necessary and the latter is not that useful for the expensive cost, considering he's T5. That should reduce the cost by ~50 iirc.
I'd drop the lightning claw and fist, and get a frost axe and bolt pistol. Same number of attacks, same ap2 of the fist, and only slightly less strong, for much cheaper.
4500 
101st MEU- 1500+ pts
Deathwing- 3000+ pts.
Herald Deathwolf- 2500pts.
Deathwatch- 3000+ pts.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
Krieg 6k
Necrons 2.5k
3000pts
Orks! 2000pts
