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Space Marines are mid range, jack of all trades.
IG are mid to long range pie plate droppers.
Grey Knights / Inquisition are short to mid range.

Does that make SoB the close combat guys? I know their thing is flamers, and that they have a fair few dedicated close combat units. Is that what the army as a whole is intended for? Closing in and wrecking face from up to 12" away?

The question came about when thinking of using a small sisters list as allies to my marines, and just wasn't sure where they'd fit.

Cheers

The SoB thing is to be able to spam Sv3+ very cheaply. That and flamers cheaply. Basically, they're a horde army that's really good at anti-horde.

Under 6th, they seem to be really good at close-range firefights and weathering assaults. Not as well as the Space Wolves with Grey Hunters, but think along those lines. Lots of cheap bolters en-masse for a 12" storm of fire - with pot-shots in the turn or two leading up to that - whittles down incoming units, and lots of flamers makes assaulting them a dangerous prospect for what's left.

Ailaros wrote:The SoB thing is to be able to spam Sv3+ very cheaply. That and flamers cheaply. Basically, they're a horde army that's really good at anti-horde.

Super Ready wrote:Under 6th, they seem to be really good at close-range firefights and weathering assaults. Not as well as the Space Wolves with Grey Hunters, but think along those lines. Lots of cheap bolters en-masse for a 12" storm of fire - with pot-shots in the turn or two leading up to that - whittles down incoming units, and lots of flamers makes assaulting them a dangerous prospect for what's left.

They shoot just as good as marines, but get more boots on the table. And can spam melta and flamers in spades. If I was going to give them a tagline, it would be "masters of the close-in firefight". Outside of 12" they can't do a whole lot, inside that they put out a LOT of firepower. Of course, they are not as tough as marines, and not as good in close combat (if things get past the overwatch) so having to live in charge range to do your thing can be dicy.

Though, I would note, sisters aren't necessarily BAD in close combat. I mean, they do get a lot of aforementioned 3+, which means they can resist weight of fire, and they have the numbers to not get TOO bothered by high-S, low-AP, few-attacks kinds of things.

And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Not exactly CC masters, but it seems like they'd do well enough.

 Ailaros wrote:
Though, I would note, sisters aren't necessarily BAD in close combat. I mean, they do get a lot of aforementioned 3+, which means they can resist weight of fire, and they have the numbers to not get TOO bothered by high-S, low-AP, few-attacks kinds of things.

And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Not exactly CC masters, but it seems like they'd do well enough.

The S3 ruins it for them. My Necrons are actually able to win CC against them even with everything hitting last because of that damnable S3. I really don't think they can hold their own against anything T4+.

 Ailaros wrote:
Though, I would note, sisters aren't necessarily BAD in close combat. I mean, they do get a lot of aforementioned 3+, which means they can resist weight of fire, and they have the numbers to not get TOO bothered by high-S, low-AP, few-attacks kinds of things.

And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Not exactly CC masters, but it seems like they'd do well enough.

They lost their book in the 5th edition travesty , and the Eviscerators are only on Seraphim squads.

Yep. Like everyone else said, short range firepower. If Sisters get in close, expect a withering hail of melta beams, rapidfire bolters and flames. And they can take a silly amount of meltas and flamers.

 Ailaros wrote:
And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Nah. Only units that can choose to take eviscerators as an upgrade are the Canoness, Confessor and the Seraphim Superior. Also, book of St. Lucius is gone.

Though I agree that they aren't awful at CC. They're somewhat survivable.

 Ailaros wrote:
The SoB thing is to be able to spam Sv3+ very cheaply. That and flamers cheaply. Basically, they're a horde army that's really good at anti-horde.

They don't horde very well. Without something to bolster their leadership they don't stand up well. Their characters are slow in combat and lack good protection. Also they are T3, which means they take a lot more wounds from incoming fire. Having a power armor save makes people think they are tough, but they take a lot more wounds from small arms fire than MEQ.

Sisters are really good at taking it to the enemy though especially if you go first. Fast Attack is where it is at for Sisters even though they tend to move a little slower than their marine counterparts. They can have 3+ units roll up on the enemies front lines and flame and bolt down a good 2 to 5 units before their opponent can go if they have the first turn.

And as I've had the pleasure of noticing SoB actually work pretty well against Tau. There's so few special trick units to shut down that a Tau list made to counter "everything" (as people complain about) will have spent a lot of points on things that don't really help them, while the Sisters pack enough numbers and firepower to gut the Tau scoring units.

Spetulhu wrote:
And as I've had the pleasure of noticing SoB actually work pretty well against Tau. There's so few special trick units to shut down that a Tau list made to counter "everything" (as people complain about) will have spent a lot of points on things that don't really help them, while the Sisters pack enough numbers and firepower to gut the Tau scoring units.

The only problem being that just about every weapon is going to wound them on 2's.

Sisters meld really well with BA, you go all infantry with assault marines and seraphim, or tank heavy, Baal Preds and Exorcists.

 phantommaster wrote:
The only problem being that just about every weapon is going to wound them on 2's.

But there's fewer weapons that will deny them saves, and you have sisters to spare. 70 models in 1500 points is nothing odd.

I play dark eldar, t3 is the norm, I don't know anything else!

The SoB "thing" is being neglected by GW.

Melta range shooting. The sisters do at their best when they're at sneezing distance so they can bring in rapid fire bolters, flamers, and meltaguns.

Unfortunately this also brings them in charge range with things they'd really rather not be in close combat with, but flamers help mitigate this.

 Peregrine wrote:
The SoB "thing" is being neglected by GW.

Y'know, maybe this should make its way into the rules. Every model gets Shrouded, to represent them simply not being noticed - but every model also costs three times as many points as it should due to rarity...

They might also serve as a Victory-Point Ally for other armies.

Like, you deploy a squad of Sisters with your army, and then kill them, gaining a VP per casualty. Maybe an Army-wide buff if you're playing GK or something.

=/

Right now, the SOB things are:
- Tons of Melta and Flamers
- Great at killing elite troops
- Pretty good at hordes
- Crappy anti-flyer
- Best warlord in the game
- Great to ally to and from as they have some of the only BB powers that transfer to the ally
- If you include FW, cheapest AV13 spam.

They are what you might call the gunslinger army. Within 12 inches, they are deadly. Outside that, they are meh, inside that, they are being chopped up in assault.

Note that there are, as in every army, exceptions to this rule, such as celestine in combat, or exorcist's at long range.

Ailaros wrote:The SoB thing is to be able to spam Sv3+ very cheaply. That and flamers cheaply. Basically, they're a horde army that's really good at anti-horde.

Ailaros wrote:Though, I would note, sisters aren't necessarily BAD in close combat. I mean, they do get a lot of aforementioned 3+, which means they can resist weight of fire, and they have the numbers to not get TOO bothered by high-S, low-AP, few-attacks kinds of things.

And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Not exactly CC masters, but it seems like they'd do well enough.

Although this has already been corrected a couple times, it is important to note that these opinions are of the old book and not the new reality of 6th and the WD codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
They are what you might call the gunslinger army. Within 12 inches, they are deadly. Outside that, they are meh, inside that, they are being chopped up in assault.

Note that there are, as in every army, exceptions to this rule, such as celestine in combat, or exorcist's at long range.

Missed a couple:

Choppy: Conclaves, Penitents and Repentia
Shooty at Long Range: Retributors

As I see the sisters:
Defense wise, they are medium-heavy class infantry, much more then a guardsmen or even a warrior, but not quite a marine.
When it comes to method of attack, point-blank firefights seem to be their major league. their main AT is the melta, they use more pistols and flamers then usual, and their stock guns are bolters. even their "long" guns are mostly 24-26 inch.
They are NOT assault oriented, but can take on the fight onto weaker opponents (so they can take tau, guards, maybe low class orks) and can hold their own for a while against "jack" units like tactical marines.
They are also slightly less cover dependent tnx to invuls all around, cover still helps, but not at required. ironically they are probably the best suited to take on heldrakes defense-per-cost.

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

Ailaros wrote:The SoB thing is to be able to spam Sv3+ very cheaply. That and flamers cheaply. Basically, they're a horde army that's really good at anti-horde.

Ailaros wrote:Though, I would note, sisters aren't necessarily BAD in close combat. I mean, they do get a lot of aforementioned 3+, which means they can resist weight of fire, and they have the numbers to not get TOO bothered by high-S, low-AP, few-attacks kinds of things.

And they can still take eviscerators as a sergeant upgrade, right? And the book of st. lucius, right? And they still have cheap assault marines, and, celestine's death-bouquet.

Not exactly CC masters, but it seems like they'd do well enough.

Although this has already been corrected a couple times, it is important to note that these opinions are of the old book and not the new reality of 6th and the WD codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
They are what you might call the gunslinger army. Within 12 inches, they are deadly. Outside that, they are meh, inside that, they are being chopped up in assault.

Note that there are, as in every army, exceptions to this rule, such as celestine in combat, or exorcist's at long range.

Missed a couple:

Choppy: Conclaves, Penitents and Repentia
Shooty at Long Range: Retributors

Oh I know, I was just posting one example of each.

 BoomWolf wrote:
When it comes to method of attack, point-blank firefights seem to be their major league. their main AT is the melta, they use more pistols and flamers then usual, and their stock guns are bolters. even their "long" guns are mostly 24-26 inch.

I think the point blank bit is a bit overrated. If you look at modern SOB lists, a lot of their firepower is in the 24-48" with specialists being close. Due to the huge anti-infantry kick a lot of folks are on now, getting out of a transport to burn someone down is a really bad idea as T3 crumples under fire.

I either run long range shooty with guard allies and few close range units or button up AV wall.

Example 1850 list that I'm playing tonight (FW included since the upcoming event I'm practicing for includes FW):
Saint Celestine
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor
Dominion Squad (10) with 2x Melta, 2xFlamer, Combi-Melta in Repressor
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
CCS with 4 Melta, Krak
Veterans with AC/GL, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans with AC/GL, Chimera (ML/HF)
Vendetta
Leman Russ Demolisher

You'll note there's only one 'point-blank' unit and they have scouts (two if you count the Vendetta CCS). Everything else is 24"+ range.

 kitch102 wrote:
Does that make SoB the close combat guys?

No, not really at all. St. Celestine can do wonderful things in CC, mostly tar-pitting or wounding MC. Penitent Engines, Repentia, and Battle Conclaves all suffer from the whole getting to combat thing, which can be slightly mitigated with transports but sadly no Assault Vehicles. They do all make great counter-assault units however.

 kitch102 wrote:
I know their thing is flamers, and that they have a fair few dedicated close combat units.

The holy trinity of Flamer, Melta, and Bolter is 'their thing'. Aside from the few above mentioned units, SoB aren't exactly considered to be a CC army by any stretch of the imagination.

 kitch102 wrote:
Is that what the army as a whole is intended for? Closing in and wrecking face from up to 12" away?

Bingo. Sisters really excel at 12" range shooting. Getting in the face of the Xeno/Heretic/Witch and ensuring their 'purification' with a cleansing flame. They do have some ranged shooting in either Retributors or Exorcists, but I consider 12" to be the Sisters' sweet spot.

We do have a fairly active thread going on in the Tactics section that you may want to check out. Good luck to you in your endeavor.

Severely disappointed in the lack of a 'boobs' response. For shame, Dakka.

The fact that they suck gameplay wise and w/ the release of Legion they can't even spam armor SV:3+ as much as marines anymore.

ThePrimordial wrote:
The fact that they suck gameplay wise and w/ the release of Legion they can't even spam armor SV:3+ as much as marines anymore.

I'm guessing you haven't played against sister much... Also, does legion let you take an AV13 dedicated transport in every FOC slot?

ThePrimordial wrote:
The fact that they suck gameplay wise and w/ the release of Legion they can't even spam armor SV:3+ as much as marines anymore.

So wish I could play you with my Sisters just to show them how much they 'suck'. ;p

How many times have you played em?

ThePrimordial wrote:
The fact that they suck gameplay wise and w/ the release of Legion they can't even spam armor SV:3+ as much as marines anymore.

Legion lists shouldn't be compared to codices, because they're not made to be played in normal 40k. They even say this in the Betrayal book. Legion lists are made to play against Legion lists.

-Loki- wrote:Legion lists shouldn't be compared to codices, because they're not made to be played in normal 40k.

Hmm...

-Loki- wrote:The 40k rulebook does not disallow Forgeworld units or models. They are legal Games Workshop products for standard play. Accept it.

I'll let the two of you go and fight it out in the corner.

pretre wrote:Exorcist

Oh, I'd forgotten about those. They were mean in 5th edition, and now that we have hull points...

Kain wrote:Unfortunately this also brings them in charge range with things they'd really rather not be in close combat with, but flamers help mitigate this.

Even without their apparently gutted CC abilities, it's still not that bad, because sisters straddle the line between Sv3+ and a horde army. They're durable enough to be able to take some punishment, even at T3, but on the other hand they're cheap enough that you could still use squads as throwaways or speed bumps like a proper horde army.