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@Reece

i've been combi-charging units with stealers and raveners. It's a pick your poison kinda situation against purifiers (the only unit i'm afraid of). Also the Parasite helps with the forward projection of SotW but I'm not totally sold on him moving foward with my non-I1 list. Also don't take a single Trygon. Tried it, people kill it in like 5.2 seconds (exactly how long it takes 2 long fang packs to roll dice).

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. My new list has no multi-wound models aside from the parasite and a Tervie. It looks like a small bug horde now.

I am now bringing some devo gants just for purifiers. Sucks, I painted up a Trygon really nicely and it took ages and now he is going to ride the shelf with his two base-coated buddies. Poison stealers with FnP (to survive purifying flame) will own almost anything in the GK list, and they are good against everyone else. Just lame that that book alters nids so much.

Stupid GKs just totally changed my playstyle and list. Le sigh.

Another thought on how to deal with GKs is the much maligned shrike. Now of course they're vulnerable to the str8 shots from psyflemen dreads but I think they deserve a fair shake as with proper target saturation and relatively low threat value (such as 2 groups of 4 with toxin sacs and rending claws comes to 180 each but acts like a stealer unit effectively and I'd personally be comfortable running them into purifiers) I think they may be able to be worked into lists instead of trygons (which I've never been fond of to begin with).

An example of such a list I think could look like:

HQ
Tervigon - Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst

Elites
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2

Troops
Genestealers x8 - Toxin
Genestealers x8 - Toxin
Termagants x 10
Tervigon - Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst

Fast
Gargoyles x18
Shrikes x 5 - Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws
Shrikes x 5 - Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws

Heavy
T-fex - Rupture Cannon
T-fex - Rupture Cannon

Going first VS GK something like this would set up the hive guard and t-fexes very aggressively to try and draw fire from dreads and hopefully hurt at least 1 dread in a way to neutralize it, after the shrikes get in range then fortitude/sanctuary loses it's effectiveness to a large degree. Also having the option to deep strike in (since they have wings they can do this yes? No codex on hand) expands their opportunity if you're going second, and while it's no guarantee at least you have 2 shots at it and hopefully have done some damage on your walk up the board.

Note: This is just me spitballing a list out to hopefully give inspiration to something more effective but I think this would be one potential way to deal with GKs to a degree.

I personally haven't had too much experience vs new GK but I'll hopefully get a game or 2 against them with what I've been having fair success with thus far and then I'll report on what seems to be working best.

Hulksmash wrote:@Reece

i've been combi-charging units with stealers and raveners. It's a pick your poison kinda situation against purifiers (the only unit i'm afraid of). Also the Parasite helps with the forward projection of SotW but I'm not totally sold on him moving foward with my non-I1 list. Also don't take a single Trygon. Tried it, people kill it in like 5.2 seconds (exactly how long it takes 2 long fang packs to roll dice).

Couldn't agree more.
The only successful Trygons I have seen played was by Fritz. Nice combo of venomthropes and fnp from tervigons allowed them to actually live and bust up sw and de lists that normally dominate nidz. Once he came up against solid gk players though, the poor things couldn't hold up.

I really liked the ravener list you played in that recent tournament. Have you considered working shrikes in? I know they come with their own problems, but I've found the combination of speed, lashwhips/boneswords, and sitw to be devastating against gk's

@Omerakk
I have won or placed very well in several smaller RTTs with my bugs running 2-3 Trygons. Prior to this, I have been loving them! But against GKs, they just suck.

@MrDrumMachine
The problem with Shrikes, beyond their exorbitant points cost, is that they don't have grenades. Without the lash whip, they die before they swing. Sanctuary or cover just owns bugs. The GK player just sits in cover, lets you come at him, then swings first and force weapons you to death. With lash whips you at least swing simo, but then you just wipe each other out, usually to a points defecit on the Bug side. It just isn't efficient. Plus, as you pointed out, with the preponderance of str8 shooting out there right now, they just drop like flies. If only Warrior based models were tough 5, 2 wounds and had cheaper options, they woudl actually be viable.

T.Fexes are JotWW bait (as are Tervies, but at least they have some protection with SitW), and they die in combat to GKs just as easily.

I really think the only viable option is to maximize single wound bugs that can also take on light mech: steelers.

It stinks because if pigeon-holes bug tactics in the competitive scene.

However, if anyone else has some good experiences with multi-wound units, let's hear em.

Reecius wrote:
@MrDrumMachine
The problem with Shrikes, beyond their exorbitant points cost, is that they don't have grenades. Without the lash whip, they die before they swing. Sanctuary or cover just owns bugs. The GK player just sits in cover, lets you come at him, then swings first and force weapons you to death. With lash whips you at least swing simo, but then you just wipe each other out, usually to a points defecit on the Bug side. It just isn't efficient. Plus, as you pointed out, with the preponderance of str8 shooting out there right now, they just drop like flies. If only Warrior based models were tough 5, 2 wounds and had cheaper options, they woudl actually be viable.

T.Fexes are JotWW bait (as are Tervies, but at least they have some protection with SitW), and they die in combat to GKs just as easily.

I really think the only viable option is to maximize single wound bugs that can also take on light mech: steelers.

It stinks because if pigeon-holes bug tactics in the competitive scene.

However, if anyone else has some good experiences with multi-wound units, let's hear em.

I agree shrikes are expensive but saying they die before they swing I think is a little short-sighted as they still have SitW and purifiers will be hard pressed to get off any powers or force weapons. Take some wounds? Sure, but I really doubt they would just die, unless you're charging into a full squad of 10 purifiers that have a character or something attached, at which point we're talking about throwing 180 points at 250+ and we're no longer surprised at the outcome lol.

Similarly I disagree with t-fexes being JotWW bait as they greatly out-range the power and have the ability to break the bugger out of it's box and allow it to be actually dealt with. Also really I think limiting our choices based on one relatively sub-par power available to 1 army I think has been hurting tyranids in the competitive scene since the power rose to prevalence. It's been hurting us not because it's the most devastating power they have against many of our big creatures (of course it is I'm not stupid), it's been hurting us because it makes us second guess our choices when they really can be the best TAC choices in the book. Also the power is being taken less and less it seems, it will be a more rare day that you run in 2 rune priests with the power and it's quite easy to build a very competitive SW list that doesn't even include the power. Yeah, if someone decides to run 3 rune priests with the power and Njal it's gonna suck, and suck hard, I'm still of the mind that there will be a way out even against that matchup though, because after that many points sunk into those selections there isn't going to be a whole lot of army left.

I think the following is an extremely competitive army that would be able to handle GK of any variety as well as not worry about a single or even dual JotWW SW list (it will just require extremely careful play for the SW list and be more dependent on terrain and mission):

HQ: Tervigon (1#, 185 pts)
1 Tervigon, 185 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Bonded Exoskeleton; Claws & Teeth; Synapse Creature; Brood Progenitor; Psyker; Shadow in the Warp; Spawn Termagants; Cluster Spines; Toxin Sacs; Dominion; Catalyst)

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (3#, 150 pts)
3 Hive Guard Brood, 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Claws & Teeth; Hardened Carapace; Impaler Cannon; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk)

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (3#, 150 pts)
3 Hive Guard Brood, 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Claws & Teeth; Hardened Carapace; Impaler Cannon; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk)

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (3#, 150 pts)
3 Hive Guard Brood, 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Claws & Teeth; Hardened Carapace; Impaler Cannon; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk)

Troops: Tervigon (1#, 185 pts)
1 Tervigon, 185 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Bonded Exoskeleton; Claws & Teeth; Synapse Creature; Brood Progenitor; Psyker; Shadow in the Warp; Spawn Termagants; Cluster Spines; Toxin Sacs; Dominion; Catalyst)

Troops: Tervigon (1#, 185 pts)
1 Tervigon, 185 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Bonded Exoskeleton; Claws & Teeth; Synapse Creature; Brood Progenitor; Psyker; Shadow in the Warp; Spawn Termagants; Cluster Spines; Toxin Sacs; Dominion; Catalyst)

Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 100 pts)
10 Termagant Brood, 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Chitin; Claws & Teeth; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk; Move Through Cover; Devourer)

Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 100 pts)
10 Termagant Brood, 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Chitin; Claws & Teeth; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk; Move Through Cover; Devourer)

Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (1#, 265 pts)
1 Tyrannofex, 265 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Armoured Shell; Claws & Teeth; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk; Fearless; Rupture Cannon; Cluster Spines; Thorax Swarm (larvae))

Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (1#, 265 pts)
1 Tyrannofex, 265 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Armoured Shell; Claws & Teeth; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk; Fearless; Rupture Cannon; Cluster Spines; Thorax Swarm (larvae))

Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (1#, 265 pts)
1 Tyrannofex, 265 pts (Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Armoured Shell; Claws & Teeth; Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk; Fearless; Rupture Cannon; Cluster Spines; Thorax Swarm (larvae))

Of course the above can be changed to suit personal taste but I think the concept is solid and would be difficult to improve upon, even in the face of dual JotWW + 15 long fangs it's going to be down to terrain and successful FnP casts on those tervigons because the shooting is there to drop those rune priests out and remove their mobility to get any good shots with jaws.

I disagree that we're pigeonholed into taking stealers, and while I love me some toxin stealers I think there are a lot of other viable ways to build nids.

Reecius wrote: Just lame that that book alters nids so much.

Stupid GKs just totally changed my playstyle and list. Le sigh.

Kinda like what IG did to Orks.

I gotta back Reecius up here Mr.DrumMachine. Even ignoring JotWW for a second, Space wolves are going to be a rough fight with GH being very difficult to put down, Wolf Lord being complete wrecking balls and LF missile spam wrecking our MCs. It's an uphill fight if they don't have Jotww, but when they DO have it, and it's given optimal targets you can pretty much wave goodbye to large swaths of your army. That doesn't make for a competitive game really.

As for the whole "shouldn't tweak our lists because of one power" bit. I disagree again. You will make changes to your list based on what you lose to or have trouble with, and you will find that you will have trouble with SW quite often. Therefore trying to shore up your army against one of it's primary counter lists is just good list making, as long as you don't make it significantly worse against other armies. Don't forget that SW make up a significant portion of tournament armies as well, so it's just smart to plan on facing them every tourny.

I'm with Reecius on the shrike argument as well. IMO, if you are going toxin-sac/rending you might as well go double swords, as I think they are the same cost (no codex on hand ATM). Double swords and toxin-sacs is nearly twice the amount of dead MeQ for a price increase of ~10%. Rending only shines if you are going budget shrikes or want to hunt vehicles, which I would strongly suggest you do not do.

We all know the problem with shrikes, T4 W3 Sv5. They have literally zero staying power in combat and against any decent shooting. GK in particular will own them with Psyflemen dreads, in fact the psyflemen will never have a better target against nids. Other issues are of course the force weapons, and don't forget that even under shadows your average GK squad will still have a 37.5% (LD10 characters are 50%, and there's the odd brotherhood banner out there as well for auto force weapons) chance of activating those force weapons and turning a small amount of damage into a complete rout. The last problem is demon hammers. Every squad in a good player's army is going to have one, as @ 5 points they are a STEAL.

On the point of Tyranno-fexes. They have too many flaws to warrant their price tag IMO. 265 points is like 12 toxin stealers + BL. Poor BS, vulnerability to JotWW, and the new GK power that's the same thing but a flamer template, not to mention force weapons from the ever present librarian or Mephiston. Need synapse so they don't go all lurky on you. Some armies have a lack of good targets for them as well, like an ork green tide or many Tyranid lists. Too many risks to warrant using them IMO.

Carnage43 wrote:Some armies have a lack of good targets for them as well, like an ork green tide or many Tyranid lists. Too many risks to warrant using them IMO.

There's another thread going on about the poor Tyrannofex at the moment, so I'll limit my comments a bit. Both green tide and Tyranids offer some great targets for the Tyrannofex; you seem to be fixated solely on the Rupture Cannon. Mr. T-fex is quite a beast against Green Tide, as he walks around with 2 template/blast weapons, and a hidden powerklaw is going to take several turns to kill him.

I indeed, think that shrikes are becoming more and more valuable. I disagree on giving them double swords though; give them a lash whip and sword.

Being able to strike first in the open or symo charging into cover is huge and will cause far more damage than the occasional uber multi wound unit that survives long enough to take the 3d6 leadership test. Especially when at least half of such targets have eternal warrior anyway

Carnage43 wrote:I gotta back Reecius up here Mr.DrumMachine. Even ignoring JotWW for a second, Space wolves are going to be a rough fight with GH being very difficult to put down, Wolf Lord being complete wrecking balls and LF missile spam wrecking our MCs. It's an uphill fight if they don't have Jotww, but when they DO have it, and it's given optimal targets you can pretty much wave goodbye to large swaths of your army. That doesn't make for a competitive game really.

Having dealt with wolf lords with other xenos codecies I can only wish I had as may ways to kill them in CC as I do with nids. Your MCs shouldn't be receiving charges often (or ever really) if you properly bubblewrap and/or get a few decent spawn rolls and I don't know of any deathstars that can handle being countercharged by 2-3 MCs and/or loads of poisoned attacks. Also missiles bounce off 2+ armor saves (or 4+ cover and 4+ fnp really), but in the above list I would probably be 1 t-fex less and have as many gargoyles as I could cram into 265 points between 2 squads and get cover from the inevitable las/plas razorbacks (I didn't design the list I posted, but even as is I think it would do fine against las/plas backs because of how many results a turn it really should be rolling on the chart between all of it's shooting).

Carnage43 wrote:As for the whole "shouldn't tweak our lists because of one power" bit. I disagree again. You will make changes to your list based on what you lose to or have trouble with, and you will find that you will have trouble with SW quite often. Therefore trying to shore up your army against one of it's primary counter lists is just good list making, as long as you don't make it significantly worse against other armies. Don't forget that SW make up a significant portion of tournament armies as well, so it's just smart to plan on facing them every tourny.

While I agree facing SW every tournament is very likely, I don't think facing jaws will be nearly as likely anymore, especially with new controversy on whether or not it requires a roll to hit or not (it's hard for me to not be biased against it so I've been avoiding debates about the power in YMDC and will simply make my case when tournaments come up). More likely is to face a rune priest with something like Living Lightning and a more utility oriented power than Jaws (at least that's what the trend seems to be going by army lists and suggestions to those army lists, and even on other blogs and forums there's been much discussion about how relatively useless Jaws is).

Carnage43 wrote:I'm with Reecius on the shrike argument as well. IMO, if you are going toxin-sac/rending you might as well go double swords, as I think they are the same cost (no codex on hand ATM). Double swords and toxin-sacs is nearly twice the amount of dead MeQ for a price increase of ~10%. Rending only shines if you are going budget shrikes or want to hunt vehicles, which I would strongly suggest you do not do.

We all know the problem with shrikes, T4 W3 Sv5. They have literally zero staying power in combat and against any decent shooting. GK in particular will own them with Psyflemen dreads, in fact the psyflemen will never have a better target against nids. Other issues are of course the force weapons, and don't forget that even under shadows your average GK squad will still have a 37.5% (LD10 characters are 50%, and there's the odd brotherhood banner out there as well for auto force weapons) chance of activating those force weapons and turning a small amount of damage into a complete rout. The last problem is demon hammers. Every squad in a good player's army is going to have one, as @ 5 points they are a STEAL.

Shrikes are certainly overpriced, but I think there are ways to make them work in lists and the configuration I put down was obviously sub-optimal (never really tried to make them work so it's no surprise) but in regards to GK, getting synapse in their face is key IMO and ONE way of doing so is shrikes, there are others of course and they may be (okay probably are) better ways of getting that shadow up field. I also think killing units that have brotherhood banners through shooting and other kinds of attrition will have to be the approach as really that's the only avenue, but is really still workable. Demon hammers are rough vs t4, but running into a list that completely counters all of tyranids potential ways of getting to the enemy just doesn't exist.

Carnage43 wrote:On the point of Tyranno-fexes. They have too many flaws to warrant their price tag IMO. 265 points is like 12 toxin stealers + BL. Poor BS, vulnerability to JotWW, and the new GK power that's the same thing but a flamer template, not to mention force weapons from the ever present librarian or Mephiston. Need synapse so they don't go all lurky on you. Some armies have a lack of good targets for them as well, like an ork green tide or many Tyranid lists. Too many risks to warrant using them IMO.

When it comes to including t-fexes it really comes down to the rest of the list in order to properly take advantage of all the abilities the fex brings to the table and more or less requires you build around them. If you're going to inlcude 1 you really should include a pair and at 2000 having 1/4 of your points tied up in them means you already are building around them (if you're not you're doing it wrong to be honest). Again, you outrange jaws by 24", going second means jaws doesn't work on turn 1 against you, or if you're going first then you have a chance to remove it's mobility and start working on the squad it's hiding in. Besides I'm not sure how many times you've run into an army that simply out-ranges you in spearhead missions but for 1/3 of the deployments the only things able to shoot for 2-3 turns will be those t-fexes, so you really should bring them if you're concerned with mech armies at 2000+ (that's not to say there aren't other good ways of dealing with mech in spearhead deployment, just that you can't rely on hive guard as your only real option).

Ratius wrote:

Parasite when she's spearheading a Gargoyle charge.

Why is the Parasite a girl?

Because she makes babies :3

To steer myself away from fluff and back onto tactica:

Grey Knights errata wrote:Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.

So when it comes to Shrikes, Lash Whips it is...

Hulk why did you stop updating the first post? I think its time for a few changes considering the FAQ for GK and the rulebook.

As to the current discussions... I myself am still not a fan of shrikes in any config considering we still have genestealers +BL that do 90% of what a shrike squad does. I agree that dual bonesword poison adrenal warriors/shrikes can murder things, but no one seems to want these really expensive guys. Lash whips especially seem to dilute what the warriors are good at with the sole exception of when grey knights charge you, as the 3d6 LD test or die can really save you against the multiwound models in the game.

By the way, about those lash whips... they only work in base contact, right? So a savvy opponent will have only 4 models touching your 4 shrikes, while the remainder swing at their regular init when they charge.

@DevianID
You took the words out of my mouth. Steelers are better for the points, not vulnerable to instant death, scoring, more deployment options, still strike first against almost everything, more attacks per point, etc. There really is no contest between them, from my point of view. I like Shrikes, but they just don't work that well on the table, at least not for me. Others may have had different experiences, and hey, more power to them! Variety is nice.

@Grimgob
Yeah, IG changed everything. I remember when that book hit, you HAD to make a list to fight them or be crushed. I feel like GKs are going to have that type of impact on the meta.

@Janthkin
I agree on T-Fexes being good against Orks, but green tide is a bit rare, although Kan Walls are pretty popular. If bugs do go predominantly small bug horde, as I think competitive lists will, then as a mirror match meta choice, it may very well be a good one. Plus, as others pointed out, the 2+ really helps as most heavy weapons out there are ap3 or worse these days.

Still, I think point for point in the meta we are in now, with the percentage of GK, Wolf, IG and BA we will be seeing, taking small bugs for assault is going to be the smart play.

Time will tell.

Yeah, if I bust out my Tyranids again I know it will be rough. I still like hiveguard, I still like the tyrant/swarmlord, I still like troop tervigons with claws, and I really like stealers now. But MSU spam or Land Raider spam is such a pain in the arse, as once your max of 9 hive guard are gone you no longer have point efficient shooting attacks. If only they didnt ruin the venom cannon or inflate the cost of the carnifex/tyrannofex.

That said, I do own over 100 genestealers, so one day I will drop 3 ymgarl+6 stealer broodlord squads on someone and laugh maniacally.

DevianID wrote:Yeah, if I bust out my Tyranids again I know it will be rough. I still like hiveguard, I still like the tyrant/swarmlord, I still like troop tervigons with claws, and I really like stealers now. But MSU spam or Land Raider spam is such a pain in the arse, as once your max of 9 hive guard are gone you no longer have point efficient shooting attacks. If only they didnt ruin the venom cannon or inflate the cost of the carnifex/tyrannofex.

That said, I do own over 100 genestealers, so one day I will drop 3 ymgarl+6 stealer broodlord squads on someone and laugh maniacally.

I prefer the Mrr. Burns hand pyramid of evil personally