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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Japan may not have officially sanctioned Nanking, but when you look at the number of atrocities that the Japanese committed it can be assumed that the sanction was implicit if not complicit. As mass murderers go I think Uncle Joe wins, but he was an ally and those were technically his own people (filthy Georgian) so we let him get away with it.

As armies go few if any can compete with the full scale destruction, slaughter and rape that accompanied the Japanese!

Hardly, the US beats Japan in destruction and slaughter with the bombing of Japan.

People keep bringing up us war records and atrocities, I just don't see it. My lai (500)is like a footnote compares to nanking, (100's of K)even nanking is a footnote to the wholesale slaughter of the Chinese that the Japanese were doing. The comparison is silly

I didn't compare My Lai to Nanking as a competition, merely examples. If I really wanted to compare Nanking to something the Allies did I would talk about occupied Japan and the encouragement (and in some cases co-ercion) of prostitution.

You're joking with all this, right? The US firebombed a few cities, and nuked two others. The Japanese inflicted many times as many casualties, but with biological weapons and personal torture, instead of blanket bombings. You don't exactly seem to understand what "the Rape of Nanking" actually entailed, if you think "encouraging prostitution near military barracks" is remotely comparable, even to the Japanese practice of abducting women and shipping them off to serve as sex-slaves on the front-lines.

Yak9UT wrote:

Emperors Faithful
Hardly, the US beats Japan in destruction and slaughter with the bombing of Japan.

Japan killed many people in China and parts of east Asia estimated at 6,000,000 murdered as well as the POW camps set up that for force labour and for killing many enemy soldiers and civilans.

Much more then what US did to the Japanese with the nukes.

A lot of conflict from figures here. Mitsuyoshi Himeta, a (I assume Japanese) historian figures it at 2.7 million.
And Rummel puts it at 4 million.
Though this is after an 8 year war. The US killed nearly a million in a lot less time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_Country

Even if the US killed 20 million civilians, or if Japan did so, it doesn't justify targetting civilians at all.

Wiki, not the most reliable source, shows a scattering of estimates on civilian casualties. Anywhere between 300,000 (from air attacks) to 3.6 million in total.
The military casualties are really horrendous, with some estimates approaching 20 million. A great part of this may have been due to the widespread conscription in China.

What? You really need to read up on the Japanese military. They were evil.

80K? That's a fair bit bigger than the other numbers I've heard.

But we need to get this straight, you do know that prostitution is part of sex trafficking, right? And that some/a lot of those women really didn't want to be trafficked? And wouldn't have if the US didn't occupy Japan.

So the Japanese didn't have prostitution before the US came?

So you blame Europe for the poor treatment of the Native Americans, even though France and Britain treated them with far more humanity than the US ever did? After all, Britain, not the US, abolished slavery. Was it the American Identity that decided to keep on going with slavery? Or this wierd European mentality that you keep blaming?

The British may not be responsible for establishing the slave, but they sure as hell perfected it with the triangle routes! Slavery was started in the colonies by Europeans. If anything you can see growth of American ideas was a reason for it's abolition.

Even if the US killed 20 million civilians, or if Japan did so, it doesn't justify targetting civilians at all.

So it's wrong to target Japanese civilians, when the Japanese themselves made no such distinction. At least the average German soldier and civilian was appalled at what the SS were doing. Japan has yet to recognize that they did anything wrong. The average Japanese soldier and civilian had no issues with what was going on. That's what was so frightening.

@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

Emperors Faithful wrote:80K? That's a fair bit bigger than the other numbers I've heard.

But we need to get this straight, you do know that prostitution is part of sex trafficking, right? And that some/a lot of those women really didn't want to be trafficked? And wouldn't have if the US didn't occupy Japan.

You really don't know what the Rape of Nanking actually entailed, do you? I'll give you a hint, it's only "Rape of Nanking" because "Nanking Happy Fun Round Up Every Local You Can Find Then Torture the Men to Death and Rape the Women and Children Before Torturing Them to Death Too Time" is kind of a mouthful.

So you blame Europe for the poor treatment of the Native Americans, even though France and Britain treated them with far more humanity than the US ever did? After all, Britain, not the US, abolished slavery. Was it the American Identity that decided to keep on going with slavery? Or this wierd European mentality that you keep blaming?

You don't seem to get the whole "that was an entirely different country and culture than even the America of the early twentieth century" thing. A significant percent of Americans had yet to immigrate by then, and the country had yet to be twisted beyond recognition by the industrial revolution. We don't blame European countries for the crusades, or the hereditary dictatorships they had, nor do we blame the US for things Britain did prior to their secession, so it hardly makes sense to blame the actions of a loose confederacy of sovereign states on the unified nation that came later, caused by improved communication and judicial precedent.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:

Emperors Faithful
Hardly, the US beats Japan in destruction and slaughter with the bombing of Japan.

Japan killed many people in China and parts of east Asia estimated at 6,000,000 murdered as well as the POW camps set up that for force labour and for killing many enemy soldiers and civilans.

Much more then what US did to the Japanese with the nukes.

A lot of conflict from figures here. Mitsuyoshi Himeta, a (I assume Japanese) historian figures it at 2.7 million.
And Rummel puts it at 4 million.
Though this is after an 8 year war. The US killed nearly a million in a lot less time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_Country

Even if the US killed 20 million civilians, or if Japan did so, it doesn't justify targetting civilians at all.

Of course killing civilians isn't just.

But the truth is that Japanese civilian casualties are substantianally less then what they did to thier enemies.

Like it or not Japan did far worse attrosites then what the Allies did.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Wiki, not the most reliable source, shows a scattering of estimates on civilian casualties. Anywhere between 300,000 (from air attacks) to 3.6 million in total.
The military casualties are really horrendous, with some estimates approaching 20 million. A great part of this may have been due to the widespread conscription in China.

What? You really need to read up on the Japanese military. They were evil.

What does this have to do with my post?

80K? That's a fair bit bigger than the other numbers I've heard.

But we need to get this straight, you do know that prostitution is part of sex trafficking, right? And that some/a lot of those women really didn't want to be trafficked? And wouldn't have if the US didn't occupy Japan.

So the Japanese didn't have prostitution before the US came?

It appears they did up until the practice became shameful in 1908. And then brothels were established in large numbers immediately after WWII.

On 19 August 1945, the Home Ministry ordered local government offices to establish a prostitution service for Allied soldiers to preserve the "purity" of the "Japanese race". The official declaration stated that "Through the sacrifice of thousands of 'Okichis' of the Shōwa era, we shall construct a dike to hold back the mad frenzy of the occupation troops and cultivate and preserve the purity of our race long into the future..."

And most of these girls ended up with a swathe of STD's for their troubles.

So you blame Europe for the poor treatment of the Native Americans, even though France and Britain treated them with far more humanity than the US ever did? After all, Britain, not the US, abolished slavery. Was it the American Identity that decided to keep on going with slavery? Or this wierd European mentality that you keep blaming?

The British may not be responsible for establishing the slave, but they sure as hell perfected it with the triangle routes! Slavery was started in the colonies by Europeans. If anything you can see growth of American ideas was a reason for it's abolition.

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

So then what would your solution have been? What would have stopped not only the Japanese war machine, but also crushed the vial and evil culture of brutality that was part of the fabric of Japanese culture?

There wasn't one! Even if their was, that solution would never ave come in time to save Japanese from Russian Justice. The Japanese put themselves in a gak position, no one can be blamed for that except themselves.

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

America was barely a country with it's own identity before the civil war. The US was established in 1776, the American civil war was only 100 years later! That's a pretty quick transition to get rid of and abolish a system that was established by Europeans hundreds of years beforehand.

Yak9UT wrote:Of course killing civilians isn't just.

But the truth is that Japanese civilian casualties are substantianally less then what they did to thier enemies.

Only if you're talking about China. The US civilian casualties throughout the war were minimal.

I've already said that Japan doesn't have any moral high ground here, but the Allies hardly do either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

So then what would your solution have been? What would have stopped not only the Japanese war machine, but also crushed the vial and evil culture of brutality that was part of the fabric of Japanese culture?

?

The need to humiliate and brutalise the Japanese people? For what?

There wasn't one! Even if their was, that solution would never ave come in time to save Japanese from Russian Justice. The Japanese put themselves in a gak position, no one can be blamed for that except themselves.

Blaming the Victim. Always the way.

Haven't we already established that peace talks were underway?

Andrew1975 wrote:

So you blame Europe for the poor treatment of the Native Americans, even though France and Britain treated them with far more humanity than the US ever did? After all, Britain, not the US, abolished slavery. Was it the American Identity that decided to keep on going with slavery? Or this wierd European mentality that you keep blaming?

The British may not be responsible for establishing the slave, but they sure as hell perfected it with the triangle routes! Slavery was started in the colonies by Europeans. If anything you can see growth of American ideas was a reason for it's abolition.

No, no, no, no. Britain ended the slave trade in 1807 and would actively attack slavers of the coast of Africa. To claim that the Americans had anything to do with it is warping history to an extreme degree.

Andrew1975 wrote:

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

America was barely a country with it's own identity before the civil war. The US was established in 1776, the American civil war was only 100 years later! That's a pretty quick transition to get rid of and abolish a system that was established by Europeans hundreds of years beforehand.

Mein Gott!

He's rewriting History! Now it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery! Quick everyone to the Time Machine, it's not too late to setthings straight!

Andrew1975 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

So then what would your solution have been? What would have stopped not only the Japanese war machine, but also crushed the vial and evil culture of brutality that was part of the fabric of Japanese culture?

There wasn't one! Even if their was, that solution would never ave come in time to save Japanese from Russian Justice. The Japanese put themselves in a gak position, no one can be blamed for that except themselves.

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

America was barely a country with it's own identity before the civil war. The US was established in 1776, the American civil war was only 100 years later! That's a pretty quick transition to get rid of and abolish a system that was established by Europeans hundreds of years beforehand.

1700-britian becomes dominant slave trader
1790-peak of british slave trade
1807-britain ends slave trade

It's only 100 years later!

Stop ignoring historic facts please

I've already said that Japan doesn't have any moral high ground here, but the Allies hardly do either.

Why, what had they done to deserve to have to fight in the brutal manner of the Japanese? The US got pulled into the war by the Japanese.

The need to humiliate and brutalise the Japanese people? For what?

For fostering a culture that had no respect for human life that wasn't Japanese!

Blaming the Victim. Always the way.

Haven't we already established that peace talks were underway?

Victim? Only you can see the Japanese as victims. THEY WERE EVIL VILLIANS!

No we haven't established peace talks were on the way, not in any real way. You assume they would have surrendered before the bombs and Russian intervention, they barely surrendered after! There were certainly none that would be acceptable to the US. Even then the Russians were chomping at the bits. The bomb was their only chance of survival. Now you are just going around in circles.

He's rewriting History! Now it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery! Quick everyone to the Time Machine, it's not too late to setthings straight!

No, it's explaining history to someone who apparently has a tenuous grasp of it.

youbedead wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

So then what would your solution have been? What would have stopped not only the Japanese war machine, but also crushed the vial and evil culture of brutality that was part of the fabric of Japanese culture?

There wasn't one! Even if their was, that solution would never ave come in time to save Japanese from Russian Justice. The Japanese put themselves in a gak position, no one can be blamed for that except themselves.

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

America was barely a country with it's own identity before the civil war. The US was established in 1776, the American civil war was only 100 years later! That's a pretty quick transition to get rid of and abolish a system that was established by Europeans hundreds of years beforehand.

1700-britian becomes dominant slave trader
1790-peak of british slave trade
1807-britain ends slave trade

It's only 100 years earlier

Stop ignoring historic facts please

Slavery was abolished in Britain 1772 although it was only within Britain and Wales and not the rest of the English Empire.

Don't get confused with England and Britain.

Andrew1975 wrote:

He's rewriting History! Now it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery! Quick everyone to the Time Machine, it's not too late to setthings straight!

No, it's explaining history to someone who apparently has a tenuous grasp of it.

Why are you failing to grasp the concept that america did not end the international slave trade. They had NO clout in 1807


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yak9UT wrote:

youbedead wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Sir Psuedonymous: Is this a numbers game? Andrew demanded that I show him any instance where the Allies committed War Crimes.

I can't possibly condone the Holocaust (and have no wish to), but that doesn't mean I'd condone Dresden, or nuking Munich.

So then what would your solution have been? What would have stopped not only the Japanese war machine, but also crushed the vial and evil culture of brutality that was part of the fabric of Japanese culture?

There wasn't one! Even if their was, that solution would never ave come in time to save Japanese from Russian Justice. The Japanese put themselves in a gak position, no one can be blamed for that except themselves.

You are joking, right?

American practiced the slave trade long after it was abandoned and attacked by European nations.

America was barely a country with it's own identity before the civil war. The US was established in 1776, the American civil war was only 100 years later! That's a pretty quick transition to get rid of and abolish a system that was established by Europeans hundreds of years beforehand.

1700-britian becomes dominant slave trader
1790-peak of british slave trade
1807-britain ends slave trade

It's only 100 years earlier

Stop ignoring historic facts please

Slavery was abolished in Britain 1772 although it was only within Britain and Wales and not the rest of the English Empire.

Don't get confused with England and Britain.

True but the slave trade was ended in 1807 and slavery itself became illegal in 1837. Another interesting factoid, the English never discriminated for voting based on race, usually it was just class.

1700-britian becomes dominant slave trader
1790-peak of british slave trade
1807-britain ends slave trade

It's only 100 years earlier

Stop ignoring historic facts please

I'm sorry how quickly should the US have gotten rid of a system of slavery that was established by the British! I think 80 years is pretty quick considering the times and how deeply rooted it had been installed by the Europeans. I guess we should have changes overnight to make the brits happy. OH yeah we were not to concerned about the brits as we had because we had kicked them out of the country and were no longer vassals.

Seriously. Britain didn't stop slavery because of some enlightenment! It was a business decision. They got their ass's handed to them and saw it was an economic boon to the US. They would again get beaten in 1812. If there was this British enlightenment please explain the zulu wars and occupation of India!

Andrew1975 wrote:

I've already said that Japan doesn't have any moral high ground here, but the Allies hardly do either.

Why, what had they done to deserve to have to fight in the brutal manner of the Japanese? The US got pulled into the war by the Japanese.

You've tried to warp this from one country responding to agression from another into some sort of Crusade by America in order to bring civilisation to the Japanese barbarians.

The need to humiliate and brutalise the Japanese people? For what?

For fostering a culture that had no respect for human life that wasn't Japanese!

There was little in the way of respect for Japanese life from the Americans. Truman himself called them beasts when he justified dropping the bomb.

Blaming the Victim. Always the way.

Haven't we already established that peace talks were underway?

Victim? Only you can see the Japanese as victims. THEY WERE EVIL VILLIANS!

I see the civilians killed in an atomic blast and fireboming as victims, yes. You don't?

No we haven't established peace talks were on the way, not in any real way. You assume they would have surrendered before the bombs and Russian intervention, they barely surrendered after! There were certainly none that would be acceptable to the US. Even then the Russians were chomping at the bits. The bomb was their only chance of survival. Now you are just going around in circles.

I think their surrender was galvanized more by Russia entering the war than the bombs, but again we come back to why any terms Japan offered in peace would not be acceptable to the US. It's you who has brought this full circle.

He's rewriting History! Now it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery! Quick everyone to the Time Machine, it's not too late to setthings straight!

No, it's explaining history to someone who apparently has a tenuous grasp of it.

That you think that the Japanese civilians of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo and elsewhere deserved what they got is reprehensible. That you actually believe that the US caused the abolition of slavery is scary.

There was little in the way of respect for Japanese life from the Americans. Truman himself called them beasts when he justified dropping the bomb.

Because they had showed themselves to be such.

That you actually believe that the US caused the abolition of slavery is scary.

They did, in the US! We fought a war over it,(well states rights to self determine to have it actually)

That you think that the Japanese civilians of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo and elsewhere deserved what they got is reprehensible.

That the average Japanese citizen thought it was OK to rape and murder anyone who was not Japanese is worse!

Yak9UT wrote:
Slavery was abolished in Britain 1772 although it was only within Britain and Wales and not the rest of the English Empire.

Don't get confused with England and Britain.

I think you just did then.

Andrew1975 wrote:

1700-britian becomes dominant slave trader
1790-peak of british slave trade
1807-britain ends slave trade

It's only 100 years earlier

Stop ignoring historic facts please

I'm sorry how quickly should the US have gotten rid of a system of slavery that was established by the British! I think 80 years is pretty quick considering the times and how deeply rooted it had been installed by the Europeans. I guess we should have changes overnight to make the brits happy. OH yeah we were not to concerned about the brits as we had because we had kicked them out of the country and were no longer vassals.

Seriously. Britain didn't stop slavery because of some enlightenment! It was a business decision. They got their ass's handed to them and saw it was an economic boon to the US. They would again get beaten in 1812. If there was this British enlightenment please explain the zulu wars and occupation of India!

Wait they got there ass handed to them, by who Napoleon. Also if it was only a business decision (it was somewhat). Then why did they spend money to stop 1600 ships of african waters. Also, American slavery was unaffected by the English abolition. The slave population was self sustaining by that period.

Also quick quiz about the Zulu wars. Who was the main aggressor against Britain and who ended up in control of the zulus.

Wait they got there ass handed to them, by who Napoleon.

By these guys

Then why did they spend money to stop 1600 ships of african waters

They were trying to influence the fledgling US economy, which was mostly agricultural at that point, and had been run on the European established system of slavery.

You've tried to warp this from one country responding to agression from another into some sort of Crusade by America in order to bring civilisation to the Japanese barbarians.

Hardly, it was a crusade to free the asia form evil.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:
Slavery was abolished in Britain 1772 although it was only within Britain and Wales and not the rest of the English Empire.

Don't get confused with England and Britain.

I think you just did then.

whoops so I did but it was most of british Island sept for Scotland

Andrew1975 wrote:

Wait they got there ass handed to them, by who Napoleon.

By these guys



Casualties and losses
50,000± American dead and wounded 20,000± British army dead and wounded

Yep we sure did teach them

Then why did they spend money to stop 1600 ships of african waters

They were trying to influence the fledgling US economy, which was mostly agricultural at that point, and had been run on the European established system of slavery.

As I said American slavery was unaffected by the English abolition. The slave population was self sustaining by that period. Also why would they keep doing it up to 1860.

Andrew1975 wrote:

The need to humiliate and brutalise the Japanese people? For what?

For fostering a culture that had no respect for human life that wasn't Japanese!

Andrew1975 wrote:

There was little in the way of respect for Japanese life from the Americans. Truman himself called them beasts when he justified dropping the bomb.

Because they had showed themselves to be such.

That you actually believe that the US caused the abolition of slavery is scary.

They did, in the US! We fought a war over it,(well states rights to self determine to have it actually)

Actually, it was more to prevent the Southern states from seceeding. A major reason of which was slavery. And it happened nearly 100 years after that horrible European mindset (which forced you poor things to persecute the Native Americans, of course!) had already clued in.

So the Japanese didn't show themselves to be monsters? Your argument is delusional.

I've already covered the rest of your points. You just refuse to read or accept them because your argument is delusional and you see the Japanese as some kind of tragic characters. They wern't

Andrew1975 wrote:So the Japanese didn't show themselves to be monsters? Your argument is delusional.

And yours ignores facts

Andrew1975 wrote:So the Japanese didn't show themselves to be monsters? Your argument is delusional.

Well that explains a bit. If you can't seperate the Japanese Military acting overseas to that of the Japanese populace, no wonder your points have come across as so flawed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andrew1975 wrote:I've already covered the rest of your points. You just refuse to read or accept them because your argument is delusional and you see the Japanese as some kind of tragic characters. They wern't

I checked the dictionary, I really did. But I couldn't find the definition where 'Covered' and 'Ignored' are synonomous.

youbedead wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:So the Japanese didn't show themselves to be monsters? Your argument is delusional.

And yours ignores facts

What facts am I ignoring. I've given my facts, you have decided to ignore them. The rape of nanking is a fact! The bataan death march is a fact. Pearl harbor is a fact. Kamikazes are a fact.

What have you got? "ohhhhh, but they were still people". Then they should have acted like humans instead of wicked monsters!

Andrew1975 wrote:

You've tried to warp this from one country responding to agression from another into some sort of Crusade by America in order to bring civilisation to the Japanese barbarians.

Hardly, it was a crusade to free the asia form evil.

Is now a bad time to bring up Nam?

Andrew1975 wrote:So the Japanese didn't show themselves to be monsters? Your argument is delusional.

I have to Agree with Emperor and Youbedead I don't think that all Japanese people should have been all treated as if they were barbaric evil people.

They may have supported thier military forces but most countrys do.