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Your wounds may not spill over:

Pg 65 BRB wrote:
Combatant Slain
When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase.


Ok, pretty cut and dry here.

Pg 65 BRB wrote:
Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another.[/b]


I have underlined the important pieces here. Only is inclusive. You may only do *this*. *This* is attack the challenger.
The next underlined bit is blows, Blows = wounds caused by the characters in the challenge, be them saved, or unsaved it matters not. All your wounds causes must go to the challenger.

Refering back to the combats slain section mentioned above mandates that the challenge is still ongoing until the end of combat. As this has been established, you -may not- allocate wounds to other models outside the challenge from models involved within the challenge. To cover this, I refer back to Basic vs Advanced on Pg 7;

Pg 7 BRB wrote:Basic versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31. These are all the rules you'll need for your average Infantry model.



The rules for challenges are an advanced portion of the standard CC rules, as they have their own rules defined on pages 64-65. As such, the normal rules for wound allocation do not apply to the challenge section.

For those that wish to know what happens with your unsaved wounds, you may only allocate them to the challenger. As they are dead, they are unable to save these wounds. Your unsaved wounds caused at the end of combat count towards the assault result. Thusly increasing your odds for a failed morale check and sweeping advance.

This is quite correct.

Xzerios wrote:Your wounds may not spill over:
...

Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another.[/b]

I have underlined the important pieces here. Only is inclusive. You may only do *this*. *This* is attack the challenger.
The next underlined bit is blows, Blows = wounds caused by the characters in the challenge, be them saved, or unsaved it matters not. All your wounds causes must go to the challenger.

Refering back to the combats slain section mentioned above mandates that the challenge is still ongoing until the end of combat. As this has been established, you -may not- allocate wounds to other models outside the challenge from models involved within the challenge. To cover this, I refer back to Basic vs Advanced on Pg 7;

.....

(post truncated, see above for the whole thing)
only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another.

Means none of the other models can attack the challenger or chalengee.

This sentence, unambiguously, does not read "challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another"

Xzerios wrote:Here, Ill concede some ground on the notion that it does not say "allocate wounds" in the Outside forces section. But I do have to ask, what is a 'blow' then if not a wound?

Good discussion all around in here though.

Were do you see extra wounds are counted? I was under the assumption there is no overkill in challenges, if you do extra wounds beyond what is needed to kill the challenger they are just lost.

Show me where it says I have to not allocate the unsaved wounds to the challenger. :3

If a model only has 1 wound you can't do 3 wounds of combat resolution too it, the two extra wounds are lost.

Xzerios wrote:Here, Ill concede some ground on the notion that it does not say "allocate wounds" in the Outside forces section. But I do have to ask, what is a 'blow' then if not a wound?

Good discussion all around in here though.

I don't think the question here is what does "blows" mean. it doesn't really matter. What matters is what the sentence means. The way it is written is in such a way that it limits WHO may wound either of the challenge participants. They can only be harmed by eachother. Separated out you could say that "The Challenger is the only model eligible to cause wounds (strike blows) on the Challengee, and the Challengee is the only model eligible to cause wounds (strike blows) on the Challenger"

This sentence you are referring to does not, in any way, on its own, limit either of the challenge participants from causing wounds on other models. The separate rule that prevents them from causing wounds on other models is the rule that says they are only in base to base contact with eachother. Following normal wound allocation rules, this means that while both participants are still alive, they must allocate their wounds to eachother.

I really wish people would stop saying that they are still in base to base even after one dies, there is really no basis for that argument.

This is not too hard to picture in the fluff, right? To big burly guys, each with an entourage, challenge eachother. They duke it out, while the their men also fight. None of the lackies dare to intervene in the fight, since honour is important. However, as soon as their is a victor, the guy who won isnt just going to stand there, he's going to start slaughtering the dead guys men.

People who argue against overflow do so because they would like some mechanic to shield a unit from some scary character. However, that is not the intent of the challenge rule. As is stated at the beginning of the rule book, the intent of many of the new mechanics is to add drama and a cinematic flare to the game.

I'm also going to add this for people who think there are redundancies in this interpretation of the rules. What have a section that explains how to refuse a challenge, if there would never be a reason to do so? If you could gaurantee an entire round of safety from a scary character by accepting the challenge with your puny seargent and sacrificing him, WHY would you ever refuse?

Mr.Church13 wrote:Yeah but here's the thing. The two challengers aren't close enough to allocate to anyone nearby as they are in BtB with only each other until the end of the phase even if one is dead. Outside forces say the characters count as not there and all challenge rules are in effect till the phase is over that means nobody is there but them.

How are the two challengers not close enough? You could even have other models physically in base to base contact with your Challenger during the Challenge. The rules only state that you only treat the Challenger and Challengee as being in base contact. The models outside of the Challenge that are in real physical base contact with your Challenger would still be valid targets for Wound Allocation according to the Wound Allocation rules. You just treat them as not having been in base to base, so your opponent would be able to select which one to allocate onto first.

Lobukia wrote:I recommend page 429, how does that fit into challenges?

We also do not have permission do anything other than count those extra wounds for morale purposes (which they wouldn't need to tell us if this was normal wound allocation, as that is already is part of the process). Why the redudant directions, unless there was a need? We are given permission to bring them in, because we need the permission. We are not given permission to allocate wounds in, and therefore cannot.

The pages at the back of the book are summaries of the rules and are not fully accurate. Point in case, Wolf Guard as Characters. According to the Space Wolves FAQ and the actual rule developers this is only true of Wolf Guard Squad Leaders.

In any event, what part of page 429 specifically should I be looking at? I'm assuming you refer to this part: "Once all models that are not in a challenge have fought, it is time to resolve any challenges (see page 64)."

So sweet. We resolve the Challenge after the rest of the combat. How? With the normal rules for close combat! Page 64, the entire section on Characters and Challenges, makes no mention of unique rules to settle the combat. This means we still have Initiative Steps (so a Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh at Initative 6 is going to be striking before a Wolf Lord with a Thunder Hammer making him Initiative 1). This means we roll to hit. This means we still allocate wounds.

The key thing here is that no new rules for Wound Allocation are given and there are no special rules for Challenges under Wound Allocation's own rules! If anything, Page 426 makes wound overflow more powerful!

Lobukia wrote:I might also wonder how majority toughness should affect challenges if they are all together now.

That is an excellent question. One worthy of its own thread most likely. Glancing through I'm

Lobukia wrote:What is so silly, is that challenges have no point if you think overflow should exist.

The rules for combat would just be "move characters into base to base when possible. all wounds from a character must be allocated to the other character first, Wounds cannot be allocated to a character from a unit in a phase in which he was in base to base with another character"

Challenges, as you, want it, only protected characters from units, which is kinda wierd.

Challenges are a little weird. They do have a point however. They force you to deal with enemy leaders before the grunts. It keeps you from having your usually expensive characters from being killed solely to volume of dice, provided there is an enemy character.

I don't know about you, but I'd prefer the Chaos Lord, in the example I gave previously, to have to deal with my Wolf Lord rather than be able to slaughter 6 Grey Hunters without blinking and before they can attack. That kind of scenario was a problem in 5th Edition. One character was able to just walk through the enemy and you'd lose your own character without him doing anything just because your basic troops failed to stand up to the biggest bad the enemy has! Very aggravating. This is a fun change that fixes many of those problems.

Xzerios wrote:

Pg 65 BRB wrote:
Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another.[/b]

I have underlined the important pieces here. Only is inclusive. You may only do *this*. *This* is attack the challenger.
The next underlined bit is blows, Blows = wounds caused by the characters in the challenge, be them saved, or unsaved it matters not. All your wounds causes must go to the challenger.

Actually Xzerios, you seem to be overlooking the more important parts of the sentence. The sentence, fairly clearly, says that the Challenger is the only one that can strike the Challengee and vice versa. It says nothing about the Challenger being required to strike the Challengee (or vice versa).

The Challenge rule stating that the combatants are treated as only being in base to base with one another would make it so that everything beyond a Precision Strike must get allocated to the combatants until enough unsaved wounds to slay the combatant occur.

Xzerios wrote:Refering back to the combats slain section mentioned above mandates that the challenge is still ongoing until the end of combat. As this has been established, you -may not- allocate wounds to other models outside the challenge from models involved within the challenge. To cover this, I refer back to Basic vs Advanced on Pg 7;

Pg 7 BRB wrote:Basic versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31. These are all the rules you'll need for your average Infantry model.

The rules for challenges are an advanced portion of the standard CC rules, as they have their own rules defined on pages 64-65. As such, the normal rules for wound allocation do not apply to the challenge section.

For those that wish to know what happens with your unsaved wounds, you may only allocate them to the challenger. As they are dead, they are unable to save these wounds. Your unsaved wounds caused at the end of combat count towards the assault result. Thusly increasing your odds for a failed morale check and sweeping advance.

Again, you are twisting things here to make them say what you want them to say. The "Combatants Slain" section only says the Challenge is ongoing until the end of combat. It says no more, no less. The Challenge rules themselves, contrary to what you assert, do not explicitly forbid a Challenger or Challengee from wounding another model. They merely make it harder to do so, putting the focus on the combatants.

Basic Versus Advanced Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Page 7
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

That is the actual description of the rule. Wound Allocation is a basic rule of close combat. You need to find a rule for Challenges that describes Wound Allocation differently than the basic rule.

Look again at pages 64-65: there is no rules for the wound allocation mechanic, or even the to hit mechanic, in the rules for Challenges. The basic mechanics of close combat for rolling to hit and allocating wounds are not changed in any way, shape, or form. You are severely mistaken if you think otherwise. Here's a list of the changes made to close combat:

1) The Challenger and Challengee may swap places with other friendly models involved in the close combat in order to try to get into base contact with one another.
2) The Challenger and Challengee are counted as only being in base contact with one another even if other models are in base contact or if the combatants are not actually in base contact.
3) Models not involved in the Challenge are not able to allocate wounds against the combatants.
4) Models involved in a Challenge get a re-roll for every five friendly models in the combat if the only enemy model they are locked in combat with is part of the Challenge.
5) Look Out, Sir saves are disallowed.
6) A Challenge lasts the entire assault phase.
7) Challenges are resolved after all other attacks at all Intiative steps have been resolved.

That's it. Only a half a dozen changes to the rules, and that's being generous (I don't really think item 6 on that list is a change to the rules so much as a clarification).

Go through those two pages and write out the parts that actually tell you what to do. There is plainly nothing there that tells you how to allocate wounds from a model involved in a Challenge. The only restriction is on allocating wounds to a combatant and from a model outside of the Challenge.

GW's intent may very well have been to only allow models in a Challenge to allocate wounds to one another, but that is not what is written down in the rule book unfortunately.

In any case, its not going to be as game breaking as one would think. To put it in perspective, your really beefy close combat machines are going to usually have about 6 close combat attacks. Most power weapons are now AP 3, so they have to get past a lot of 2+ saves on a multi-wound model (usually 3 wounds). Odds are only in rare cases will this be that decisive.

Ill concede on the Wounds being lost. Ill play it as the wounds still going to the dead model as it is unable to save, as such, would gain a bonus/penalty to my leadership test at the end of the combat.

As for the rest with wound allocation. I implore you to read the bolded from Outside Forces. To go to RAI here, it goes as such:

"You may only allocate wounds caused by your model to the challengee model."
Couple that with the section from Combatant slain and it leaves no room for deviation.

Xzerios wrote:Ill concede on the Wounds being lost. Ill play it as the wounds still going to the dead model as it is unable to save, as such, would gain a bonus/penalty to my leadership test at the end of the combat.

Why? In 6e you still only count as many wounds as the model has. If you put four wounds on a one wound model, you only get one.
(and if you ID a four wound model with one ID wound, you get four)

As for the rest with wound allocation. I implore you to read the bolded from Outside Forces. To go to RAI here, it goes as such:

"You may only allocate wounds caused by your model to the challengee model."
Couple that with the section from Combatant slain and it leaves no room for deviation.

I think cowmonaut has illustrated why this is mistaken.

Xzerios wrote:As for the rest with wound allocation. I implore you to read the bolded from Outside Forces. To go to RAI here, it goes as such:

"You may only allocate wounds caused by your model to the challengee model."
Couple that with the section from Combatant slain and it leaves no room for deviation.

But that is not what the text says! Keep in mind the Tenants of YMDC. The argument of this thread was initially posited as RAW. RAI is all find and dandy, as is HYWPI, but the discussion is about RAW. Obviously this is a difficult subject, and house rules and tournament rules are going to vary until GW issues a FAQ update clearing up the matter.

RAW, the section for Outside Forces is as I quoted it originally here. That's the actual text from the rule book, not a paraphrasing. It does not say what you persist in saying it does.

It may be screwed up, but its RAW. On the plus side its not game breaking and means that exceptionally powerful Characters won't "waste" a turn in combat. As someone else gave as an example earlier, it would be damned frustrating to have your Blood Thirster get into combat with an IG blob and have to spend 5 assault phases dealing with naked Characters before being able to combat the Commissar or rest of the squad.

Being able to "splash" damage into the squad alleviates some of the problems with Challenges. Chances are its only going to take 1 wound from the Blood Thirster to kill the IG Character, so the extra 3 or so attacks get to spill over into the next nearest models (which hopefully includes the blasted Commissar!).

cowmonaut wrote:It may be screwed up, but its RAW. On the plus side its not game breaking and means that exceptionally powerful Characters won't "waste" a turn in combat. As someone else gave as an example earlier, it would be damned frustrating to have your Blood Thirster get into combat with an IG blob and have to spend 5 assault phases dealing with naked Characters before being able to combat the Commissar or rest of the squad.

Being able to "splash" damage into the squad alleviates some of the problems with Challenges. Chances are its only going to take 1 wound from the Blood Thirster to kill the IG Character, so the extra 3 or so attacks get to spill over into the next nearest models (which hopefully includes the blasted Commissar!).

It is actually not RAW for overflow.

Since you must allocate wounds to models in base contact first, and the challengers are still in base to base, even after they are slain.

DeathReaper wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:It may be screwed up, but its RAW. On the plus side its not game breaking and means that exceptionally powerful Characters won't "waste" a turn in combat. As someone else gave as an example earlier, it would be damned frustrating to have your Blood Thirster get into combat with an IG blob and have to spend 5 assault phases dealing with naked Characters before being able to combat the Commissar or rest of the squad.

Being able to "splash" damage into the squad alleviates some of the problems with Challenges. Chances are its only going to take 1 wound from the Blood Thirster to kill the IG Character, so the extra 3 or so attacks get to spill over into the next nearest models (which hopefully includes the blasted Commissar!).

It is actually not RAW for overflow.

Since you must allocate wounds to models in base contact first, and the challengers are still in base to base, even after they are slain.

Please stop posting "are still in base to base, even after they are slain" unless you want to back that up with RAW.

This point of view insists a model can continue to be in base with a model which has been removed from the table based on a questionable reading of one sentence in the challenge section.

Models are not "considered to be in base to base" for the duration of the assault phase.
They are "considered to be in base to base only with eachother", meaning they cannot be considered to be in base with an outside model even if they physically are in base to base.

Many a pages of this thread are dedicated to this question, and I really don't think anyone has dealt with the objections previously raised.

I have posted the rule. The models are considered to be in base to base only with each other.

Meaning they are not in B2B with anyone except the other person in the challenge. This persists until the challenge is finished, at the end of the phase.

This is RAW.

Choosing to ignore it doe not make it incorrect.

DeathReaper wrote:I have posted the rule. The models are considered to be in base to base only with each other.

Meaning they are not in B2B with anyone except the other person in the challenge. This persists until the challenge is finished, at the end of the phase.

This is RAW.

Choosing to ignore it doe not make it incorrect.

Nobody is choosing to ignore it, just reading it correctly.
the difference is between "only considered to be" and "considered to be.. only"

This was the topic of discussion a few pages ago, and there's still no support for your reading of that rule.

Can you explain why you think that implies we should consider a model to be in base with a casualty instead of insisting it does?

There is support, and you are ignoring the facts.

"These two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

They are considered to be in base contact.

The Challenger is considered to be in base contact.

The Challengee is considered to be in base contact.

With who?

Only the Challengee...
Only the Challenger...

The Challenger is not in base contact with anyone but the Challengee.

The Challengee has the same restriction.

This lasts for the entire challenge, which lasts the whole phase.

You have no rules support for it working any other way.

ERROR!

The model cannot fail saves as it is dead, so all wounds that are allocated to it are lost.

However, that is irrelevant, because wounds cannot be allocated to a dead model. Fortunately, there are other targets around to allocate wounds to that are not in base (i.e. the enemy unit). EDIT: Indeed, you MUST allocate wounds to them, according to the assault rules - you have no permission to skip this step.

But you are still counted as being in base to base with the model, so the wounds cannot be allocated (because the model in base with you is dead) but can be allocated (because the model in base with you is dead).

Mind = blown.

DeathReaper wrote:There is support, and you are ignoring the facts.

"These two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

They are considered to be in base contact.

The Challenger is considered to be in base contact.

The Challengee is considered to be in base contact.

With who?

Only the Challengee...
Only the Challenger...

The Challenger is not in base contact with anyone but the Challengee.

The Challengee has the same restriction.

This lasts for the entire challenge, which lasts the whole phase.

You have no rules support for it working any other way.

Fine, but we're talking about what happens when one of them gets removed as a casualty.

I'm asking, why do you insist that rule implies we continue to treat them as in base after one of the models is gone.

The only grammatically correct reading of the rule tells us it restricts which models we consider to be in base with the challenger/chalengee. (Note, this part of the rules does not tell us that the two models are in base to base contact, or even that we should consider them to be. It just says, if we're going to consider these two models to be in base with anybody, it has to be with eachother. That part of the rules is earlier in the section (about moving the two models as close to eachother as possible)

You're right, for the duration of the challenge we can only consider the two models to be in base with eachother.
But after one of the models is removed from the board, the one that remains is considered in base with nobody.

Wound allocation proceeds as normal to the next closest model.

jcress410 wrote:Fine, but we're talking about what happens when one of them gets removed as a casualty.

I'm asking, why do you insist that rule implies we continue to treat them as in base after one of the models is gone.

Why?

Because of this line here:

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

And whilst in a challenge, since it is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase, they are considered to be in base contact with the other person in the challenge.

jcress410 wrote:...the one that remains is considered in base with nobody.

The rules do not say that.

They say "These two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

Even if one is slain.

DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote:Fine, but we're talking about what happens when one of them gets removed as a casualty.

I'm asking, why do you insist that rule implies we continue to treat them as in base after one of the models is gone.

Why?

Because of this line here:

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

And whilst in a challenge, since it is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase, they are considered to be in base contact with the other person in the challenge.

jcress410 wrote:...the one that remains is considered in base with nobody.

The rules do not say that.

Are you trolling intentionally?
The rest of the post that you didn't quote explained why you're reading the rules incorrectly.

Not trolling, Just asserting that the rules do not say "the one that remains is considered in base with nobody." Unless you have a Page number where I can read that rule.

And I'd like a page number for "even if one is slain".

The part of the rules you're trying to contort into supporting that simply do not imply one model can be in base with a model I've already put back in my case.

(and, I guess my point is, it feels like trolling because I've explained my position on this issue a few times and you don't respond to any of that, you just reassert your position. Really not trying to be caustic)

jcress410 wrote:And I'd like a page number for "even if one is slain".

P.64 Combatant Slain Heading.

DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote:And I'd like a page number for "even if one is slain".

P.64 Combatant Slain Heading.

Only says the challenge continues. I.e. outside combatants still cant hurt the model that remains.

Yes, if one is dead, the challenge is still on going.

But that does not imply the models are still in base.

For the duration of the challenge, we can only consider the two models to be in base with eachother.

You insist,

for the duration of the challenge we must consider the two models to be in base.

My point is, you're misreading the rules. Please don't just repost them. We've been going in circles for a while.

Please explain why

"considered to be in base contact only with eachother"
means they have to be in base.

DeathReaper wrote:
It is actually not RAW for overflow.

Since you must allocate wounds to models in base contact first, and the challengers are still in base to base, even after they are slain.

DeathReaper, you are twisting rules to mean what you wish them to say. Read my full post again. Your argument is incorrect from a strict RAW sense.

"For the duration of the Challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
"When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."
"Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, only the Challenger and Challengee can strike blows against one another. Wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either Character."
"If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model. "

Those are snippets of the rules. Those are not paraphrasing on my part, but the actual text of the rules. So far every argument against overflow has involved paraphrasing of the rules which changes the meaning of the sentences. Look at what the actual words are saying.

There is just outright no sentence anywhere in the rules that expressly forbids you from allocating wounds to models outside of the Challenge. Point in fact, the rules say to use the normal rules for Wound Allocation.

So we have a Space Marine Sergeant with Power Fist and a Chaos Champion with Power Sword fighting a Challenge. The Chaos Champion causes 3 wounds. We now have to allocate wounds following the basic rules for wound allocation. This means the Sergeant takes a wound, it is AP 3 so he is unable to Save. His model is slain.

Per the basic wound allocation rules we keep allocating wounds to the next physically nearest enemy models. This likely means two more casualties at the very end of combat. RAW, the only time this would not be the case is if there were unengaged models. Any models that are not within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model in the same contact would not be engaged and could not be struck in combat. This seems to be why the rule regarding wounds from Challenges always counting for combat resolution exists.

So please, DeathReaper, show me the page number and section of the rule book that clearly states that the normal rules for wound allocation does not apply. I'd love to read it, but it does not seem to be anywhere on pages 64-65 or 429. Without new rules for allocating wounds from models in a Challenge, the RAW is for wound overflow.

cowmonaut wrote:show me the page number and section of the rule book that clearly states that the normal rules for wound allocation does not apply.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other" "When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain... the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase" page 64

jcress410 wrote:Antivas, unfortunately there just isn't a piece of text explicitly saying the wounds can't be allocated to the squad.
(taking aside for the moment the b2b argument, which I think we can agree doesn't, on it own, explicitly solve the issue)

I guess the way I'm reading it, wounds generated from the challenge have a certain set of models they can be legally allocated to,
wounds generated outside the challenge have a different set of models they can be legally allocated to,

so it seems like there's two "wound pools" to resolve.

That seems like the case even if we disagree about where the challenge pool can be allocated, right?

Yes, exactly. We think of the wound buckets being next to each other and the overflow going on the ground. You think of the character bucket being over the other bucket draining into it and the rest draining on the ground.

But that doesn't say what you are claiming it does. That's the problem. The rules for Challenges do nothing to restrict the Challenger or Challengee from hurting models outside of the Challenge. The rules force you to allocate wounds to the Challenger/Challengee first, but the rules for Wound Allocation then let you spill out of the Challenge. And all because there is not a single sentence forbidding you from doing so.

As many like to tote, this is a permissive rule set. The rules for Wound Allocation force you to allocate any unsaved wounds on the next nearest model, with the defender picking the model in the event of a tie. You do not have to be in base contact with an enemy model to allocate a wound to them.

If there were anything stating that the Challenge was treated as a separate combat or that the Challenger/Challengee could only allocate wounds to one another I'd be in full agreement with you. The rules flat out don't do that though! Literally, the only restriction on allocating wounds is that models not directly involved in the Challenge are forbidden from allocating wounds onto the Challenger/Challengee.

You are just plain wrong.

They do. You just don't interpret the unclear rules the same way. I can also jump up and down and stomp my feet swearing up and down that you are wrong and it doesn't change the fact that it is unclear and no one can say for sure that it is one way or the other.

cowmonaut wrote:As many like to tote, this is a permissive rule set. The rules for Wound Allocation force you to allocate any unsaved wounds on the next nearest model...

Except the next nearest model is still considered to be in Base contact.

For the duration of the challenge, which would seem to be pretty cut and dry.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:For the duration of the challenge, which would seem to be pretty cut and dry.

the duration of the challenge is not in dispute.

Please answer these questions:

1) Are the two models in the challenge considered to be in base contact with each other?
2) Are the two models in the challenge considered to be in base contact with anyone else?
3) Does this last for the duration of the challenge?
4) When does the challenge end?
5) If one combatant is slain does the challenge continue?