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What do people do to deal with deep strikers?

2x 5 man groups of warriors. 60 points.

2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246

2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160

2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170

I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.

Edit: I found out I have a Razorwing in my list. That can probably make up deep strike denying on one side of the flank. I stil need something on the right.

 Niiai wrote:
What do people do to deal with deep strikers?

2x 5 man groups of warriors. 60 points.

2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246

2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160

2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170

I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.

I think wracks is actually a decent choice here, especially supported by a haemonculus. Toughness 5 with 4++ and a 6+ fnp, even against 90 attacks 1-2 wracks should survive.

The speed we have should help. I'd figure bikes can at least go pretty far pretty fast. Maybe minimum size squad bikes and speed em up all around the board denying 9" deployments. You'd have to get turn one though.

I'd have to say what i used vs orks with the jump is normally just keeping my stuff in multiple areas so i didn't get everything charged all at once. I suppose they could do it again but i dunno.

The helm of spite is also a thing.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You know I was initially pretty enthralled by the blender-talos and its 10 attacks, but upon mathing it out I'm starting to think that the flail is a huge trap. It averages 2 dead MEQ, 4 dead GEQ, only a single wound on TEQ and a few wounds on vehicles/monsters. What is thing actually supposed to be good against? Macro-scalpels seem to match it or outperform against all targets. How dull.

S: User, AP0, D1 is not a weapon profile you ever want to see on a monster. Might as well arm it with a pair of pillows.

Jupp. As a tyranid player with 2 guns on my flyrant, you do not like to see S6, AP0 D1 on a killing machine. ^_^


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePie wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
What do people do to deal with deep strikers?

2x 5 man groups of warriors. 60 points.

2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246

2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160

2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170

I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.

I think wracks is actually a decent choice here, especially supported by a haemonculus. Toughness 5 with 4++ and a 6+ fnp, even against 90 attacks 1-2 wracks should survive.

That sounds like an incredible sunk cost that is very unflexible once the game begins. The haemoncaly and the wraks will not do anything against a myriad of lists. Against gun lines for instance they will not provide any backup while they shoot down our transports. I want a unit that is either cheap or that is cheap enough and stil provides some utilaty.

Also moving wracks with 2 CP acros the board seems incredebly expensive.

Macro-scalpels are pretty much the only real option. For all the toys Talos get to work with, their options are pretty artificial.

Do Dark Eldar have a way to disembark after moving a transport?

I thought I recalled reading about that during spoiler season, but I can't seem to find it now.

No, but there is argument that Fire and Fade lets you, tho i dont agree with that, there is also a stratagem to let you embark if you consolidate.

The fact that Dark Eldar don't get an ability or stratagem that lets them disembark into combat after charging (SHOCK PROW! It's in the name!) really does hurt, both in terms of potency and in terms of my spirit.

 vipoid wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You know I was initially pretty enthralled by the blender-talos and its 10 attacks, but upon mathing it out I'm starting to think that the flail is a huge trap. It averages 2 dead MEQ, 4 dead GEQ, only a single wound on TEQ and a few wounds on vehicles/monsters. What is thing actually supposed to be good against? Macro-scalpels seem to match it or outperform against all targets. How dull.

S: User, AP0, D1 is not a weapon profile you ever want to see on a monster. Might as well arm it with a pair of pillows.

The main point with flails is really just to give them a cheap option if you want to give them twin liquefier guns, since they rewrote the way extra attacks for macro-scalpels work (and it doesn't make sense to shell out for a talos gauntlet, since a liquefier Talos is an anti-mook unit, not an anti-tank). I've personally found a Talos with 2xLG and chain flails to be awesome for taking out big blobs of T3 units with t-shirt saves.

A Talos with a twin liquifier gun, chainflails, and two splinter cannons is going to be killing 9.2 guardsmen on a turn it charges, and about 3.7 each turn it's stuck in combat thereafter.

For what you pay on a Talos, that's not exactly what I would want to use them for.

 Fafnir wrote:
The fact that Dark Eldar don't get an ability or stratagem that lets them disembark into combat after charging (SHOCK PROW! It's in the name!) really does hurt, both in terms of potency and in terms of my spirit.

Honestly, I'm annoyed that they can't disembark after moving as standard (even if the unit couldn't move any further after doing so or something).

Currently, what is even the point of them having open-topped vehicles? There's maybe one unit that get any meaningful benefit from the shooting side, none of our melee units benefit in the slightest, and we're actually slower than Eldar heavy tanks. Gee, I sure am glad we gave up all that armour so that we could go faster.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
The main point with flails is really just to give them a cheap option if you want to give them twin liquefier guns, since they rewrote the way extra attacks for macro-scalpels work (and it doesn't make sense to shell out for a talos gauntlet, since a liquefier Talos is an anti-mook unit, not an anti-tank). I've personally found a Talos with 2xLG and chain flails to be awesome for taking out big blobs of T3 units with t-shirt saves.

I don't consider '1pt cheaper than the standard melee loadout' to be a cheap option.

I'm at the math again, challenging my Poison Tongue Kabalite concepts.... So far I've modeled up and so far been unhappy with:

1, Venom Kabalite squads w/ Shredders - 103 points basic for 3.33 MEQ kills. I'm massively favoring Webway Portal Kabalites here instead as the delivery mechanism is 100% reliable and at 76 points per 10, putting out 4.15 MEQ kills it's far more efficient.

2, 10 Man Kabalites w/ 2 Blaster & Splinter Cannon - 104 points, reliable to keep in an Archon aura but my main turn-off as i'm working out the math is that it only puts out 4.3 damage against vehicles so will need support to take out the average 6 wound light vehicle.
---

This is leading me to a new configuration of Kabalites:

15 Man Kabalites w/ 3 Blasters & Splinter Cannon - 151 points with an output of 6.3 damage to 18" range, it stays above that 6 damage threshold even with 5-6 casualties.

MEQ kills work out at 4.52 so two squads in concert can wipe out a full squad from 18" range after morale, and you've got a good chance of wiping out a 5 man.
GEQ kills work out at 7.09 - with a PGL on top you should cripple or destroy most squads through morale.

Importantly, you could raider-up a 10 man squad but it becomes hard to maintain both the volume of splinter fire necessary as well as stay within an Archon aura, plus you pay a fair bit more.

Just feels like it hits all sorts of great magic numbers...

I need to play with them a bit. But I was really excited for red grief bikes and helions.

I got the models (gangs of chomorag box) but when putting the lists they really do eat up points fast! 2 groups of 9 and a group of 20 helions do not seem sustainable at 20 points. There are so few points left for other stuff.

In 5th and 6th edition i had some boats with satonyx beast rutine for melee. 18 bikes and 20 helions leave little space for boats.

I thnk I need to reconsider some things. Have the reavers to tie things up. The helions seems like a genuine threat if you are reed grief. Hook stratagem and charge seems good. On averadge 6 to 7 mortal wounds on infantery.

If i cut down on the reavers I can soften up the enemy with some warriors in web way portal. Pop down, shoot chaff.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I also like kabalites with blasters spam. The min unit in a venom with a blaster is 112 points, I usually bring 3-4 of them. Also 10 kabalites with 2 blasters in a raider with dark lance are a decent source of anti tank.

You mean 5 Warriors in a Venom with a single blaster ? Doesn't seem worth the investment to me, I think I'll use Venoms for Trueborns and CC characters.

Yes I thought about running with 1 blaster and 1 splinter cannon in a Raider for each 10 men squad, but running Flayed Skull, the efficiency and lethality of the unit is at max when using 10 Warriors with 1 splinter cannon and splinter racks. That way I reroll the 1s to hit, and dish out 11,09 wounds to save on average.

The thing Trueborns in a Venom have against Scourges for a blaster squad role is that they're tougher to kill, can still DS for 1 CP, and reduces deployments on the table, while bringing more splinter weaponry to the table. 177 pts vs 128 pts, though. I wonder if I won't just take both, but use haywire for the Scourges.

Trueborn are too expensive, you're putting too many eggs in the same basket, kabalites are obj sec and unlocks patrols and battallion.... IMHO 3-5 units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each are pretty solid. I prefer them over 10 man squads in raiders.

Lithanial wrote:
I'm at the math again, challenging my Poison Tongue Kabalite concepts.... So far I've modeled up and so far been unhappy with:

1, Venom Kabalite squads w/ Shredders - 103 points basic for 3.33 MEQ kills. I'm massively favoring Webway Portal Kabalites here instead as the delivery mechanism is 100% reliable and at 76 points per 10, putting out 4.15 MEQ kills it's far more efficient.

2, 10 Man Kabalites w/ 2 Blaster & Splinter Cannon - 104 points, reliable to keep in an Archon aura but my main turn-off as i'm working out the math is that it only puts out 4.3 damage against vehicles so will need support to take out the average 6 wound light vehicle.
---

This is leading me to a new configuration of Kabalites:

15 Man Kabalites w/ 3 Blasters & Splinter Cannon - 151 points with an output of 6.3 damage to 18" range, it stays above that 6 damage threshold even with 5-6 casualties.

MEQ kills work out at 4.52 so two squads in concert can wipe out a full squad from 18" range after morale, and you've got a good chance of wiping out a 5 man.
GEQ kills work out at 7.09 - with a PGL on top you should cripple or destroy most squads through morale.

Importantly, you could raider-up a 10 man squad but it becomes hard to maintain both the volume of splinter fire necessary as well as stay within an Archon aura, plus you pay a fair bit more.

Just feels like it hits all sorts of great magic numbers...

I've been mathing a bit too to see what can 10 Flayed Skull Warriors in a Raider could do against anything non-vehicle. So far the best results I have, purely in terms of casualties, are:

- 10 Warriors in a Raider w/ disintegrator cannon and splinter racks, 7 splinter rifles, 1 splinter cannon, 2 shredders: 6,23 dead MEQ (implying they only have 1W each) for 176 pts or 28,25 pts/W
- 10 Warriors in a Raider w/ disintegrator cannon and splinter racks, 9 splinter rifles, 1 splinter cannon: 4,81 dead MEQ for 176 pts or 33,26 pts/W

If you're running Poisoned Tongue and they're in a transport you trade the rerolls of 1s to Hit for the 1s to Wound instead, so I don't know how that might change the results. If they're on foot you'll have both with an Archon but you have to be in 12" range.

 Blackie wrote:

Trueborn are too expensive, you're putting too many eggs in the same basket, kabalites are obj sec and unlocks patrols and battallion.... IMHO 3-5 units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each are pretty solid. I prefer them over 10 man squads in raiders.

The trouble with Trueborn is that they were overpriced in the index (they should be, at most, 1-2pts more than Warriors), and didn't benefit from the cost-reductions that most of our other units got.

I am planning more of my army right now, and I am wondering what the verdict on Razorwing Jetfighters is. It seems like they are decently tough and pretty killy relative to say, a Ravager. I almost want to run a pair or even three of them instead of Ravagers and just get more Kabalites or Wyches in Raiders for ground forces.

If you are leaving the transports at home -1 to hit on the fev vehicles you do have sounds very good.

You trade away a lance for some rockets, that is fine.

I would sugest you have som form of blasters in the webway portal to keep your opponent on his toes.

 Niiai wrote:
If you are leaving the transports at home -1 to hit on the fev vehicles you do have sounds very good.

You trade away a lance for some rockets, that is fine.

I would sugest you have som form of blasters in the webway portal to keep your opponent on his toes.

I have two squads of Kabalites toting a Blaster and two squads of Reavers with a Blaster. I am still going to run a Dark Lance Raider with every squad of Wyches too.

If you are stil running raiders the -1 to hit argument becomes much weaker.

The flyer can deny deep strike though.

 Niiai wrote:
If you are stil running raiders the -1 to hit argument becomes much weaker.

The flyer can deny deep strike though.

My army is mixed Kabalites in Venoms and Wyches in Raiders. Probably going to get another of each of the two Start Collectings just for the hell of it. That will bring me up to four Venoms and two Raiders. Six troops units should be enough plus it gives me enough for the +8 CP (I am converting one of the Raider passenger models into an Archon). I am thinking two Razorwings and a Voidraven too. That would give be the following:
4x Archons
2x Succubi
4x 5 Kabalite
2x 10 Wyches
4x Venoms
2x Raiders
2x 6 Reavers
2x Razorwing Jetfighters
1x Voidraven Bomber

So not a bad army. Kinda one dimensional, I guess. The best part is that it is actually pretty inexpensive.

FAQ about to drop in an hour or so ! Fasten your seatbelts, this might either bring tears of joy or be more painful than a night in an Haemonculus' mancave.

ERRATA

Pages 103 and 104 – Talos and Cronos, Keywords
Add ‘Fly’

Page 115 – Kabal Obsessions, Slay From the Skies
Change the penultimate sentence of rules text to read:
‘In addition, enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by models with this obsession that can Fly, or by models with this obsession that are embarked upon a Transport with this obsession that can Fly.’

Page 118 – Alliance of Agony
Add the following sentence:
‘You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.’

Page 125 – Labyrinthine Cunning
Change the rules text to read:
‘Whilst your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent spends a Command Point to use a Stratagem; you gain one Command Point for each roll of 6.’

FAQs

Q: The Voidraven Bomber’s Void Mine rule allows you to pick a unit the Voidraven flew over and roll three D6 for each Vehicle or Monster in the unit, or one D6 for ‘every other model in the unit’. Does this mean ‘every other type of model (other than Vehicles or Monsters)’, or ‘every second model’?
A: It means the former – roll one D6 for every model in the unit that is not a Vehicle or a Monster. So, for example, if the unit contains 10 Infantry models, you would roll ten D6.

Q: If a model is slain by an ossefactor, and the mortal wound inflicted by the ossefactor’s ability causes another model in that unit to be slain, do I roll again to see if another mortal wound
is inflicted?
A: No.

Q: If I am playing a matched play organised event that has an upper limit of 3 Detachments per Battle-forged army, what is the maximum number of Drukhari Patrol Detachments I
can include?
A: 3.

Whilst the Raiding Force ability in Codex: Drukhari mentions Battle-forged armies of 6 or more Detachments, this is designed for narrative play games, or for matched play games with larger (or no) limits on the number of Detachments you can include in your Battle-forged armies. Note that the guidelines provided for organised events in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
are just that, and the event organiser may wish to modify these guidelines to best suit their event’s needs.

So, Flayed Skull shooters have to be in a Flayed Skull transport, that's pretty normal I believe.

Labyrinthe Cunning became more powerful... And here I thought they'd notice that recycling CPs is a bad idea.

And too bad for tournaments I guess. But now having a Battalion is better than before, so I'll stick to a Battalion and 2 Patrols I guess.

The big FAQ impacts our alpha strike severely now, it basically renders Webway Portal and Screaming Jets almost obsolete.

Wait, so Labyrinthine Cunning does not work in a transport?

Also, can all DE use the vect counterspell stratagem, or is there something I am not seeing?

 Niiai wrote:
Wait, so Labyrinthine Cunning does not work in a transport?

Also, can all DE use the vect counterspell stratagem, or is there something I am not seeing?

Good point about the transport thing. I misread that.

No corrections or commentaries about Agents of Vect, we can still use it with any Drukhari detachment.

In Xenos FAQs



https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_xenos-1.pdf

 Amishprn86 wrote:
In Xenos FAQs

Spoiler:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_xenos-1.pdf

What's this ? An OOP flyer ?

Seeing the nerf of the CC DS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.

Wow, that's a massive boost to flying units. But on the other side:

Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is
entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin,
Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end
its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either
because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or
because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper
levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain
rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.

I know not everyone played it by house ruling but now that it's official it'll be necessary to shoot up a unit on a roof a little bit to make room before charging.

 Aaranis wrote:

Seeing the nerf of the CC DS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.

Wait what?! Are we not allowed to DS turn one now?