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After 3 pretty dire episodes ep4 definitely got back on track - its almost like the writers remembered they could write good stuff from back in season 2-4 (although the opening 25 minute love in was tedious).
Great scenes with Tyrion/Varys (totally under used thus far) as were the scenes with Jamie/Brianne, a nice cameo with Bronn returning and a good old dark GoT ending.
More of that please.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Seriously, you want to play a semantics game? we can, I guess, it is the Internet, after all. You knew exactly what I meant so your epeen points didn't go up, sorry to say.

Far less ruthless except for a few people (Jon, Sansa, Tyron, Yarys, etc.) you know, all the people telling her not to do it on a moral basis. Yup, never occurred to them.

If you missed the madness throughout, sorry for you, you must go back and watch every episode again. Or not. You will just be more upset over the ending, I guess.

You didn't see her face after she asked her lover to do the one thing he cannot do, and she knew he couldn't do it? Guess not. Not surprised. You seem to not be able to read beyond a literal interpretation.

No Mate YOU made a very specific statement about HER killing people - and have now backtracked to say nope not what I said - read it again:

She has had literally every single one of the advisors who have been cautioning her against her worst instincts for the last four seasons killed

so wtf did you mean by this statement becuase I cant read your mind over the internet! Be easier if you said what you mean.

Varys not ruthless? Hilarious - of course he is thats his job - in the last episode he was discussing having her killed (as he did back when he worked for Robert and co.
Sansa - she had a man devoured in front of her by dogs and watched and smiled. Which apparently is fine and killing peope by dragon is the mark of an insane person ??
Jon - as he himself said he killed men for disobeying orders, he is the weakest and most malliable - as Varys sai but will kill those who do not obey.

As I said Which of them were after the throne? - probably just Sansa now.

And that "great advice" from Varys and Tyrion - what element or advice has worked out for her snce she arrived in Westros? When has it not resulted in disaster?
If she had burnt the Red Keep on DAY ONE- tens of thousands would still be alive and well. Their deaths are on them but are always forgotten.

On both sides
Those who died in the assault on Castley Rock
Those who died in the Iron born fleet destroyed by Euron
Those who died in the attack on the Lanister supply convoy
All those who died at Highgarden

All those would still be alive if she had burned the heart of out Cersei's rule and anyone who now dies is also there fault, not Dany's.

Tell me why Jon couldn't do (or at least wait) - WHY does he need to tell Sansa and Aryria (apart from the ongoing narrative to break up the two of them) - Dany told him what would happen - and it has - its therefore his fault (after Bran and Sam). If he does not care and wants her to be queen - keep your fat mouth shut.

I said that Dany has now increasing cause to be loosing it - can you disagree?
Along with Sansa she has the most difficult journey of any remaining character. Sold as a child bride, lost her husband and children, now lost 2 out of 3 proxy children, friends dying, lover betraying her. Seriously she should leave them to it - they don't want her let them sort Cersei out.

Its her fault that she has not been any where near ruthless enough.

Yes the showrunners have now decided she is the mad one in this season.

 Ratius wrote:
After 3 pretty dire episodes ep4 definitely got back on track - its almost like the writers remembered they could write good stuff from back in season 2-4 (although the opening 25 minute love in was tedious).
Great scenes with Tyrion/Varys (totally under used thus far) as were the scenes with Jamie/Brianne, a nice cameo with Bronn returning and a good old dark GoT ending.
More of that please.

It's hilarious how much of a minority of an opinion this is...not saying it's wrong, but the overwhelming majority of fan posts I've seen hated e4 as much or more than e3.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
After 3 pretty dire episodes ep4 definitely got back on track - its almost like the writers remembered they could write good stuff from back in season 2-4 (although the opening 25 minute love in was tedious).
Great scenes with Tyrion/Varys (totally under used thus far) as were the scenes with Jamie/Brianne, a nice cameo with Bronn returning and a good old dark GoT ending.
More of that please.

It's hilarious how much of a minority of an opinion this is...not saying it's wrong, but the overwhelming majority of fan posts I've seen hated e4 as much or more than e3.

It has better elements than ep 3 - the fact you can see what was happening was a bonus. The interplay between characters is mostly good but the action scenes are pretty awful in concept - done well but make no sense sum up alot of scenes.

Crowbarring in Dany going mad to this season is a major negative for many.

The alt scene suggested previous for the death of a dragon (if it had to happen) was much better than waht they filmed.

They see a single Greyjoy ship, and engage it. Turns out to be a trap, and other Greyjoy ships appear from behind terrain (or are camoflaged on the shore!) They release a torrent of scorpion bolts, and they all either miss, or bounce off. The dragons are now torching stuff left and right, screaming burning men, and so on. Suddenly, a shot hits Rhaegal in the eye, mirroring what happened to Meraxes!

It's hilarious how much of a minority of an opinion this is...not saying it's wrong, but the overwhelming majority of fan posts I've seen hated e4 as much or more than e3.

Hmmm, I dunno. I thought it was a decent return to some of the older seasons, shorter snappier scenes, some politicking, a good dark ending, a ok short battle scene and some decent character interplay.
Dont get me wrong the opening 25 mins I was nearly asleep, Danny/Johns scenes were tedious and there was definitely some wand waving with the fleet battle/dragons.
But better than I've seen imho.

I definitely thought they needed the immediate destruction of the dragon by the ballistas to show how they have evened the playing field so Dany is now overly cautious. If it was just a lucky strike or one dragon died at Winterfell, it would not have the same effect. Sure, I think they could have played the shoot massive amounts of missiles and we will hit something angle instead of being an amazingly accurate one-hit-wonder.

 Ouze wrote:
Ugh. I try to tune out the people who clearly hate the show but still watch for reasons I cannot fathom, but either they're rubbing off on me, or I have to concede some points to them.

I'm sure I come across as far too negative. I don't hatewatch the show. I keep wanting it to improve...but it just keeps disappointing me. I recognize these writers had a tough task in front of them, and part of me wants to defend them on that point. But the writing is...just not good. And it's one of those things where the more you think about it and the more threads you pull, the worse it gets. And if you actually go back and watch an episode from the early seasons...IMO it becomes really hard to say that the show hasn't gone downhill. In fact, it seems to be picking up downhill speed heading into the long-awaited conclusion. It's so disappointing.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Crowbarring in Dany going mad to this season is a major negative for many.

Her seemingly imminent heel turn will certainly ruffle some feathers. Especially given that the showrunners are male, and we're coming off an ep that had some really cringy lines from Sansa about how all the abuse made her stronger. I'm not a SJW, but my eyebrows went up on that one. We're headed for some controversy.

But really, I think most of the audience are people who tune in watch the 'splosions.

Oh...the actor who plays Bran solved the great mystery of what he was doing during the battle. Apparently he was just in the ravens, keeping tabs on things. Alrighty then. That character's arc sure paid off, huh?

Eh, Sansa's lines weren't unique. What she said was just some variation of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Its been done before.
Bran is pointless. I mean, he's basically a god now, right? Or some sort of mystical avatar druid thing? Do something.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Sansa's lines weren't unique. What she said was just some variation of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Its been done before.
Bran is pointless. I mean, he's basically a god now, right? Or some sort of mystical avatar druid thing? Do something.

Bran's basically an invalid with unlimited access to streaming everything that happens in human history, which probably means he was watching Endgame while the Battle of Winterfell was going on and now he's watching the nature channel. I dunno, I was hoping he would at least give them insight to the wildfire caches still leftover in King's Landing and how Cersei could use it as a deadman's switch. Maybe even give them intel regarding their defenses or Euron's fleet location? A lot of characters are muddling about doing nothing right now.

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Sansa's lines weren't unique. What she said was just some variation of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Its been done before.
Bran is pointless. I mean, he's basically a god now, right? Or some sort of mystical avatar druid thing? Do something.

Bran's basically an invalid with unlimited access to streaming everything that happens in human history, which probably means he was watching Endgame while the Battle of Winterfell was going on and now he's watching the nature channel. I dunno, I was hoping he would at least give them insight to the wildfire caches still leftover in King's Landing and how Cersei could use it as a deadman's switch. Maybe even give them intel regarding their defenses or Euron's fleet location? A lot of characters are muddling about doing nothing right now.

Could be Bran is outside the cares of this world at this point. There is no motivation for him to do anything any more. Same with Tom Bombandil in LotR. He could ignore the power of the ring, he could possibly bitchslap Sauron for funsies, but the random threat of a looming evil all over the world was irrelevant for him. He was happy in his forest with his lady and singing to the trees and the waters and that was about it.

I see Bran in a similar way.

Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Beats meeting someone on Monday, someone you always thought was actually a boy all these long years, screwing on Tuesday, then proposing to them on Wednesday.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Beats meeting someone on Monday, someone you always thought was actually a boy all these long years, screwing on Tuesday, then proposing to them on Wednesday.

Gendry knew Arya was a girl, and a highborn girl at that, since before they even reached Harrenhal.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Beats meeting someone on Monday, someone you always thought was actually a boy all these long years, screwing on Tuesday, then proposing to them on Wednesday.

Gendry knew Arya was a girl, and a highborn girl at that, since before they even reached Harrenhal.

Ok, scratch that, explain the rest.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Not that I agree with it, but I actually got the impression they were going to go that route in the show for awhile now. Would have been more surprised if they did not push that arc in all honesty.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Not that I agree with it, but I actually got the impression they were going to go that route in the show for awhile now. Would have been more surprised if they did not push that arc in all honesty.

I agree with this arc, as there was the tension during her escorting him a few seasons back. It actually broke my heart to see Brienne hurt and crying... But, Jamie is a turd for all he has done and I would not believe this as his redemptive act to stay HEA with her - he has to face Cersei if he to be truly redeemed. However, what about the storm brewing within Tormund? I guess it's good Jamie left town in a hurry.

 Mr Morden wrote:

The alt scene suggested previous for the death of a dragon (if it had to happen) was much better than waht they filmed.

They see a single Greyjoy ship, and engage it. Turns out to be a trap, and other Greyjoy ships appear from behind terrain (or are camoflaged on the shore!) They release a torrent of scorpion bolts, and they all either miss, or bounce off. The dragons are now torching stuff left and right, screaming burning men, and so on. Suddenly, a shot hits Rhaegal in the eye, mirroring what happened to Meraxes!

Heck, you could have it be a one-shot. Spot Greyjoy fleet, swoop in and burn. Euron Greyjoy is a crazy who mans a ballista and waits until a dragon points its mouth at him, at close range, smiles, and shoots the dragon in the mouth.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Sansa's lines weren't unique. What she said was just some variation of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Its been done before.
Bran is pointless. I mean, he's basically a god now, right? Or some sort of mystical avatar druid thing? Do something.

Bran's basically an invalid with unlimited access to streaming everything that happens in human history, which probably means he was watching Endgame while the Battle of Winterfell was going on and now he's watching the nature channel. I dunno, I was hoping he would at least give them insight to the wildfire caches still leftover in King's Landing and how Cersei could use it as a deadman's switch. Maybe even give them intel regarding their defenses or Euron's fleet location? A lot of characters are muddling about doing nothing right now.

Could be Bran is outside the cares of this world at this point. There is no motivation for him to do anything any more. Same with Tom Bombandil in LotR. He could ignore the power of the ring, he could possibly bitchslap Sauron for funsies, but the random threat of a looming evil all over the world was irrelevant for him. He was happy in his forest with his lady and singing to the trees and the waters and that was about it.

I see Bran in a similar way.

But that's contradicted by how strongly he pushed for Jon to know his real parentage. What purpose does this give besides dividing the alliance with the North and Daenerys' forces? It would have made more sense for him to convince Sam to tell him after the war in the south has been finished.

 Grimskul wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Sansa's lines weren't unique. What she said was just some variation of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Its been done before.
Bran is pointless. I mean, he's basically a god now, right? Or some sort of mystical avatar druid thing? Do something.

Bran's basically an invalid with unlimited access to streaming everything that happens in human history, which probably means he was watching Endgame while the Battle of Winterfell was going on and now he's watching the nature channel. I dunno, I was hoping he would at least give them insight to the wildfire caches still leftover in King's Landing and how Cersei could use it as a deadman's switch. Maybe even give them intel regarding their defenses or Euron's fleet location? A lot of characters are muddling about doing nothing right now.

Could be Bran is outside the cares of this world at this point. There is no motivation for him to do anything any more. Same with Tom Bombandil in LotR. He could ignore the power of the ring, he could possibly bitchslap Sauron for funsies, but the random threat of a looming evil all over the world was irrelevant for him. He was happy in his forest with his lady and singing to the trees and the waters and that was about it.

I see Bran in a similar way.

But that's contradicted by how strongly he pushed for Jon to know his real parentage. What purpose does this give besides dividing the alliance with the North and Daenerys' forces? It would have made more sense for him to convince Sam to tell him after the war in the south has been finished.

Bran seems to be aplot device that they don't have a use for.

Apparently he can;t see the future but is happy to meddle in life or death situtaions - is that cos he is bored, does not really care or a bad guy.

Telling Jon helps no one but Cersei at the point it was done - so why did he do it / push Sam to do it?

I almost have to assume there is still a bit more Bran stuff to come, otherwise, yeah, completely wasted character/plot line. He seems to be a bit of a Dr. Manhattan character, but at least Manhattan's motives were somewhat clear.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Nah. That felt like the culmination of a fairly well built line to me.

 Ouze wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

Nah. That felt like the culmination of a fairly well built line to me.

I thought it peaked in the Knighting scene tbh. Would have been good to have one of them die after that, but here we are.

 Gael Knight wrote:

I thought it peaked in the Knighting scene tbh. Would have been good to have one of them die after that, but here we are.

Yeah, I half expected Brienne to bite it at Winterfell after the knighting scene, because it really would have been a great peak to have that character and that relationship end on. Honestly feel like that ending would have done more justice to the actual character as well, but I also had a feeling that the showrunners were going to push it into the direction that they did due to viewer expectations for a more physical relationship.

 MDSW wrote:
I definitely thought they needed the immediate destruction of the dragon by the ballistas to show how they have evened the playing field so Dany is now overly cautious. If it was just a lucky strike or one dragon died at Winterfell, it would not have the same effect. Sure, I think they could have played the shoot massive amounts of missiles and we will hit something angle instead of being an amazingly accurate one-hit-wonder.

They could have accomplished that without it feeling so hamfisted though.

They could have simply wounded Rheagol with several glancing blows, after a lot of shots. Or killed him after a relatively even struggle.

The scene we got was hilariously one sided, and that was a very poor choice. We needed to see several ships go down in exchange for killing Rhaegol. Killing him, and most of Dany's ships, with no losses is just dumb and uninteresting.

Euron Ex Machina needs to go away, RIGHT NOW!!! Its bad for the series. I really hope he dies in the next episode because the show really needs it for its own good, hopefully in a suitably terrible manner.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Does anyone else think that the whole Jaime/Brienne love plot arc seemed incredibly forced and random? I definitely never got that feeling between them, and then in one episode *bam* they slept together.

I think groundwork had been laid (pun intended), but the consummation was fan-servicey. It’d be better writing and more true to those characters if they didn’t IMO. And it’s not like that relationship is leading anywhere important with 2 eps left in the whole series. It was all about the “omg you go girl”.

Nobody else considering that the sex was to set up the 'betrayal' where he runs back to Cersei and may then set up further repurcussions?

See, I'm on the fence on weather he is actually running back to Cersei, and I really hope he isn't.

The last several seasons have kinda been a... atonement arc for him. He's been working towards leaving Cersei and repenting for all the bad things him and his family have done, which culminated in him defying his sister and joining the "good guys" at Winterfell.

If he just goes back to being on her side thats going to just ruin all of that character development he's been having, and be contrary to what he has become. Hopefully, he's going back to try to convince her/do what he can to make her surrender and give up.

To be honest, I think whether Jaime goes back to help or or kill her, it's sort of in-character.

He has this whole redemption line, and killing her would fit into that nicely. He finally broke free of Cersei's influence! (also, it fulfills the Valonquar prophecy).

On the other hand, if he joins her, then it's true to the arguments he gave - that his infatuation with Cersei is essentially a sickness, it's a cycle that he cannot break. it also subverts the expectations of the redemption arc.

So, they can't lose, really!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Nobody else considering that the sex was to set up the 'betrayal' where he runs back to Cersei and may then set up further repurcussions?

If he does indeed kill Cersei, I assume the speech was to prevent Brienne from following him.

 gorgon wrote:
I think groundwork had been laid (pun intended), but the consummation was fan-servicey. It’d be better writing and more true to those characters if they didn’t IMO.

I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. Brienne is a true knight, but weak for Jaime, as well as the fact pretty much no one really accepted her as a woman or anything other than a giant monster, with some exceptions like Renly. Jaime however is definitely not a true knight. Pining away for Ashara Dayne is in character for Barristan Selmy, for example, but not for Jaime.

In a season marred by some questionable choices, I think this is the one I was the most OK with.

Lets also not forget that Jaime had drunk quite a lot of wine too.

I thought the Jamie - Brienne sub plot is one of the better elements - esp with him going back to his obession with Cersei. He also does think he is having a child with her -and given their last child died in his arms may be a motivator.

Its another reason why the whole Dany/Jon incest problem seems less insurmountable than many believe - no one is ostracising Jamie for that element.....