Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't know if this is a silly question (and I apologise if it's been discussed already), but is there any point whatsoever in taking a Destroyer Lord over a CCB?

- Destroyer Lords used to at least have the edge in melee with an extra attack, but I notice that Overlords gained an attack but D. Lords didn't. And the latter are still WS3+ for some utterly moronic reason.

- So offensive you've got WS/BS3+ rerolling 1s to hit and wound vs. WS/BS2+. Oh, but they have the same selection of melee/ranged weapons, the CCB also gets a Gauss Cannon.

- The CCB moves 12", whilst the D. Lord's movement has been cut to a pathetic 8".

- They're both T6 with a 3+ save. The D. Lord has a 4++ and can take a Phylactery. The CCB only has a 5++, but can't be wounded on a 1-3 and has 50% more wounds to start with.

- The D. Lord has an aura that lets nearby Destroyers reroll 1s to wound. The CCB has an aura that gives all Core units +1M, and can additionally give a single Core unit +1 to hit.

I get that the CCB is slightly more expensive, but not by a huge amount. And it just seems to completely outclass the D. Lord in every conceivable way. The D. Lord doesn't even have the once-great Nanoscarab casket to fall back on anymore.

Am I missing something, or have D. Lords been made so bad and redundant that they've effectively been removed in all but name?

I get that the CCB is slightly more expensive, but not by a huge amount. And it just seems to completely outclass the D. Lord in every conceivable way. The D. Lord doesn't even have the once-great Nanoscarab casket to fall back on anymore.

Actually, I don't like lumbering HQs.
So I never go out without a CCB.

The D lord was never good, IMO. The Nanoscarab Casket made him somewhat useable but he was always outclassed by any of the other options. Now we have the Skorpekh Lord who actually does well against a variety of targets in close combat and the Casket has been nerfed I really don't know what the D Lord is for. 9th also places more of a premium on HQ slots because there's a cost for adding detachments, unlike 8th, so that's another loss for the D Lord.

The CCB seems like a complete no-brainer to me. You lose a point of invulnerable save compared to an Overlord but gain so much extra it's going to be a rare list that doesn't find the extra 50ish points to upgrade.

Should I take large groups of warriors for securing objectives or use medium sized ones? I feel like small ones would just get shot to pieces and fail.

Is it better to take 5 Immortals vs 10? I like the durability of immortals so It think smaller groups of them are okay while holding objectives, plus 5 getting locked up in close combat isn’t as bad as 10.

Well, the Warriors should be used as shock-and-awe unit.
They can do some damage if they are close - at half range of their weapons.

The problem is to bring them forward. For this, VoD can be used.
As I don't overlook the codex fully, are their other ways such as dimensional translocation?
Then another unit of Warriors could be used in parallel.

As said by Slipspace, Immortals could be used to hold objectives at midfield. But small units could become a liability.

The only roll I see for the D.Lord is either in thematic or narrative lists. We just have too many options that do what it does but more efficiently

Hey friends. 3 Wraiths and 3 Skorpekh Destroyers, or 6 Wraiths?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey friends. 3 Wraiths and 3 Skorpekh Destroyers, or 6 Wraiths?

Small cc units have too less impact.
I'd go for 5 men squads.

That makes sense. I’m working on a crusade roster, so I’m sort of stuck with 3 or 6 man of either due to power. Not that I care much about how good my army is, just wanted to make sure it was competent enough not to get stomped. So 6 of either then?

This is what I’m thinking, it’s about 1000pts (50 power)

Dynasty: Szarekhan
HQ
- Overlord (Indomitus loadout) w/ Szarekhan Warlord Trait/Relic
TROOPS
- 10x Gauss Immortals
- 20x Warriors w/ Gauss Flayers (haven’t built any with reapers yet)
ELITE
- 5x Lychguard w/ sword and shield
FAST ATTACK
- 6x Wraiths
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Doomstalker

 Tiberius501 wrote:
That makes sense. I’m working on a crusade roster, so I’m sort of stuck with 3 or 6 man of either due to power. Not that I care much about how good my army is, just wanted to make sure it was competent enough not to get stomped. So 6 of either then?

Indeed. Another reason is that you can bolster tcc units by stratagems and here its better to bolster larger units.
Depends on personal preference. I always go out with Wraiths. I played them in the 6th and 7th ed in tourneys and they served me very well.
Skorpekh are slower but hit harder. If you play on smaller tables or tables with dense terrain, they are a decent option.

Slipspace wrote:
The D lord was never good, IMO.

Oh I know he was never good, but he at least had some advantages over an Overlord/CCB.

Now he just seems to be worse in every possible way.

Slipspace wrote:
The Nanoscarab Casket made him somewhat useable but he was always outclassed by any of the other options.

I mean, he was the best melee option we had but that really wasn't saying much.

And with the Nanoscarab Casket he was by far our most durable HQ - regaining d3 wounds in each turn and being able to potentially resurrect twice (once with the Casket and once with the Stratagem).

Now he's outclassed in melee by almost anything and he can't even revive once.

Slipspace wrote:
Now we have the Skorpekh Lord who actually does well against a variety of targets in close combat and the Casket has been nerfed I really don't know what the D Lord is for. 9th also places more of a premium on HQ slots because there's a cost for adding detachments, unlike 8th, so that's another loss for the D Lord.

The CCB seems like a complete no-brainer to me. You lose a point of invulnerable save compared to an Overlord but gain so much extra it's going to be a rare list that doesn't find the extra 50ish points to upgrade.

Yeah, this is the thing, the D. Lord seems to be outclassed in every possible role - by both the CCB or by the Skorpekh Lord.

The Lokhust Lord is indeed just a completely junk unit now. Shame for people who want to run it, and shame on GW because it looks both lazy and careless on their part

New FW stuff is leaking. The Tomb Sentinel/Stalker got the BS/WS nerfs that we knew they would. But don't seem to have gained any attacks (whyyyy???) like Wraiths did. But they're now pretty damn cheap so eh I guess it's okay..

Cynista wrote:
The Lokhust Lord is indeed just a completely junk unit now. Shame for people who want to run it, and shame on GW because it looks both lazy and careless on their part

New FW stuff is leaking. The Tomb Sentinel/Stalker got the BS/WS nerfs that we knew they would. But don't seem to have gained any attacks (whyyyy???) like Wraiths did. But they're now pretty damn cheap so eh I guess it's okay..

Can you post a Link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&fbclid=IwAR1AXqyQ4hh65CFs1agGV2Ehad4sxuIOoPpKA-G5mSmKnes-vZJt578X70M&v=Fvv14xVrYoM

FW stuff looks pretty meh honestly. Stalker got very cheap, but it also can't shoot and can't fight well (nerfed to S7, AP2 and WS4 means it is lucky to kill two primaris a turn) and dies super easily. I just don't see the point of the model at all, there is no reliable way to let it charge from DS - even Novokh fails 35% of the time - and it offers nothing else.

Sentinel is an interesting model in theory in that it has a good gun you can deliver from DS, but when you can get a doomstalker for 15 points more...I just don't know. I briefly considered taking 3 and a technomancer with the control node and the DS wargear option...and then realized that's never going to work because the models are so huge that dropping three of them where you want to is not going to work.

Acanthrites are still a schizophrenic, bad version of eradicators that pay a lot of points for stuff that doesn't improve their ability to kill. Who wants single-shot melta weapons that only hit on 4s? They also oddly *lost* an attack, in addition to the WS nerf, making them 45 points a model for something that can't shoot or fight with any degree of reliability.

To be fair the Stalker is now just a pure distraction carnifex. Cheap, looks scary, can drop onto an objective turn 2 or 3 and demands to be shot at. I do wish the rules reflected the model though

Yeah, but it isn't *actually* scary at all, which is kinda problematic. If it has ob-sec, half the time it fails the charge from DS, so it doesn't get onto an objective until T3 minimum; if it is novokh, it fails 35% instead, but it doesn't have ob-sec, and it will struggle to reliably kill more than two models a turn - even 5 point junk - so that's not much of a threat either.

Probably they are best just started on the table, since their primary value at this point seems to be hoping your opponent will shoot at them instead of something else. But then you're paying the points for the DS that you aren't using.

It ended up in a really weird place.

Cynista wrote:
To be fair the Stalker is now just a pure distraction carnifex. Cheap, looks scary, can drop onto an objective turn 2 or 3 and demands to be shot at. I do wish the rules reflected the model though

I found it deeply frustrating in 7th when I bought mine because it got shot on turn one every single time for its appearance despite not warranting such a reaction. “Good” to know some things never change...

I actually want to highlight the sentry pylons. They're fortifications now, and their guns aren't terrible for 100 points per pylon. Honestly, I might even contend that two with the focused death ray might steal a slot from a doomsday ark. they hit hard, with very little RNG to screw you, and offer pretty decent area denial. They're not nearly as durable, though, which is a point against them, as is their inability to move. Not degrading feels pretty okay too, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

Cynista wrote:
To be fair the Stalker is now just a pure distraction carnifex. Cheap, looks scary, can drop onto an objective turn 2 or 3 and demands to be shot at. I do wish the rules reflected the model though

I found it deeply frustrating in 7th when I bought mine because it got shot on turn one every single time for its appearance despite not warranting such a reaction. “Good” to know some things never change...

Hey. the best game I ever played was against knights when they decided to pump an entire round of fire from three knights into my tomb stalker. Anything that people will blow out while leaving the things you care about alone is a good thing in my book.

Barcha wrote:

changemod wrote:

Cynista wrote:
To be fair the Stalker is now just a pure distraction carnifex. Cheap, looks scary, can drop onto an objective turn 2 or 3 and demands to be shot at. I do wish the rules reflected the model though

I found it deeply frustrating in 7th when I bought mine because it got shot on turn one every single time for its appearance despite not warranting such a reaction. “Good” to know some things never change...

Hey. the best game I ever played was against knights when they decided to pump an entire round of fire from three knights into my tomb stalker. Anything that people will blow out while leaving the things you care about alone is a good thing in my book.

What if it 1: Was one of the things I cared about and 2: I literally never got to use it?

 vipoid wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
The D lord was never good, IMO.

Oh I know he was never good, but he at least had some advantages over an Overlord/CCB.

Now he just seems to be worse in every possible way.

Slipspace wrote:
The Nanoscarab Casket made him somewhat useable but he was always outclassed by any of the other options.

I mean, he was the best melee option we had but that really wasn't saying much.

And with the Nanoscarab Casket he was by far our most durable HQ - regaining d3 wounds in each turn and being able to potentially resurrect twice (once with the Casket and once with the Stratagem).

Now he's outclassed in melee by almost anything and he can't even revive once.

Slipspace wrote:
Now we have the Skorpekh Lord who actually does well against a variety of targets in close combat and the Casket has been nerfed I really don't know what the D Lord is for. 9th also places more of a premium on HQ slots because there's a cost for adding detachments, unlike 8th, so that's another loss for the D Lord.

The CCB seems like a complete no-brainer to me. You lose a point of invulnerable save compared to an Overlord but gain so much extra it's going to be a rare list that doesn't find the extra 50ish points to upgrade.

Yeah, this is the thing, the D. Lord seems to be outclassed in every possible role - by both the CCB or by the Skorpekh Lord.

Honestly, I would bet money on the CCB going up in points in the next CA. It's pure upside to field it.

It's more just that the destroyer lord is flat-out terrible than that the CCB is undercosted. I have no clue why they didn't buff it to 2+ WS/BS and give it the extra attack, it's just downright weird. There is no reason you would ever, ever take it.

What have they done to my poor Seraptek?
I heard it got more expensive. AND it got nerfed.
What on god's green earth made them go THAT route?

I can't believe they actually NERFED the Acanthrites! Well actually I can, since they've had bad rules since IA12 first came out. If it had gotten the Wraith treatment of -1 BS/WS but +1 attack (a second shot on the meltagun is probably TOO generous for xenos) they could have been interesting for Canoptek lists.

Sentry Pylons are about the same as they've always been but I don't think we need them yet. Each costs less than a Doomstalker, but the Pylons are artillery pieces that can't move or ignore LOS.

If the meta eventually includes some T8 20+ wound monstrosities that the Nightbringer can't kill, then I'll bring some Sentry Pylons for a suicide drop.


EDIT: Did the Acanthrites get a (pitiful) points drop to make up for -1A? I'd gladly trade the Acanthrites' master mold to the Krieg players to melt down into one of their arbitrarily removed units.

Drakmord wrote:
I can't believe they actually NERFED the Acanthrites! Well actually I can, since they've had bad rules since IA12 first came out. If it had gotten the Wraith treatment of -1 BS/WS but +1 attack (a second shot on the meltagun is probably TOO generous for xenos) they could have been interesting for Canoptek lists.

Sentry Pylons are about the same as they've always been but I don't think we need them yet. Each costs less than a Doomstalker, but the Pylons are artillery pieces that can't move or ignore LOS.

If the meta eventually includes some T8 20+ wound monstrosities that the Nightbringer can't kill, then I'll bring some Sentry Pylons for a suicide drop.

EDIT: Did the Acanthrites get a (pitiful) points drop to make up for -1A? I'd gladly trade the Acanthrites' master mold to the Krieg players to melt down into one of their arbitrarily removed units.

Acanthrites are down 10 points to 45 each, but losing 1A AND 1 WS/BS really makes that drop a joke. BS 4 single-shot melta guns at 45 points a pop is just sad. They end up a schizophrenic unit that doesn't know whether it's coming or going and does nothing well.

The Necron FW models are so cool to look at, it's a shame they seem determined to make them total meh on the table.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
I can't believe they actually NERFED the Acanthrites! Well actually I can, since they've had bad rules since IA12 first came out. If it had gotten the Wraith treatment of -1 BS/WS but +1 attack (a second shot on the meltagun is probably TOO generous for xenos) they could have been interesting for Canoptek lists.

Sentry Pylons are about the same as they've always been but I don't think we need them yet. Each costs less than a Doomstalker, but the Pylons are artillery pieces that can't move or ignore LOS.

If the meta eventually includes some T8 20+ wound monstrosities that the Nightbringer can't kill, then I'll bring some Sentry Pylons for a suicide drop.

EDIT: Did the Acanthrites get a (pitiful) points drop to make up for -1A? I'd gladly trade the Acanthrites' master mold to the Krieg players to melt down into one of their arbitrarily removed units.

Acanthrites are down 10 points to 45 each, but losing 1A AND 1 WS/BS really makes that drop a joke. BS 4 single-shot melta guns at 45 points a pop is just sad. They end up a schizophrenic unit that doesn't know whether it's coming or going and does nothing well.

The Necron FW models are so cool to look at, it's a shame they seem determined to make them total meh on the table.

Same story with the monolith. I don't understand why GW has such a hard time getting the monolith to a usable state. Literally,
just give it the Fly keyword and get rid of the LOW crap.

How about this list - it contains units I like:



Can we say competitive? The presence of Marines is everywhere.

Can't read the Rules for TA. Any reason to Take it?

Surtr wrote:
Can't read the Rules for TA. Any reason to Take it?

Also curious as to how it came out.

So what's the best close combat Overlord/CCB we can build that still synergises well with the rest of the army? I'm interested in running a CC and or short ranged Dynasty for my semi-competitive group and I want to plan out my purchases and builds.

Looking through myself it seems weird that the Mephrit WT gives +1 to Str & A (things the Overlord desperately needs for CC) for a shooty Dynasty. I'm not sure if it's worth it to bite the bullet and give up Novokh's +1 to charge dynasty trait or the Rad-Wreathed/Relentless Expansionists combo to beef up the Overlord, buuuut I can't help but think about a CCB with Merciless Tyrant and Voidreaper/Voltaic Staff relics.

That being said, the Novokh Blood Scythe relic does solve the number of attacks issue and could be an interesting pairing with Honourable Combatant (+2 attacks against <Characters> ) or Eternal Madness (Re-roll wound rolls for melee attacks.)

These are just some spitballing ideas that I had but I want to know what others think and also what has actually worked well in games.