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So, general 2000pt list. Plan is to put some attention on the ground, while having a whole mess of monsters coming in fast for sheer attempt to table on turn two or so. So, general opinion and critique?

HQ: 190
Tyranid Prime - 80pts
Tyranid Prime w/ Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration - 110

Elites: 360
2x Zoanthropes - 120pts
2x Zoanthropes - 120pts
2x Zoanthropes - 120pts

Troops: 420
10x Termagants - 50pts
10x Termagants - 50pts
1x Tervigon - 160pts
1x Tervigon - 160pts

Fast Attack: 960
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts

Fortifications: 70
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay - 70pts


Alternative Single FOC list

HQ: 570
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings, Old Adversary - 285pts
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings, Old Adversary - 285pts

Elites: 340
2x Zoanthropes w/ Spore Pod w/ Cluster Spines - 170pts
2x Zoanthropes w/ Spore Pod w/ Cluster Spines - 170pts

Troops: 540
10x Termagants - 50pts
10x Termagants - 50pts
1x Tervigon w/ Toxin Sacs- 170pts
1x Tervigon w/ Toxin Sacs- 170pts
3x Tyranid Warriors w/ Barbed Strangler - 100pts

Fast Attack: 480
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts

Fortification: 70
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay - 70pts

If you're going to be silly...at least include the skynest for the 4+ invuln or non deepstrike scatter.

That is probably the first scarey list I have seen with Harpies. If the dice like you infantry will die. If they hate you, there is not much you can do but watch the harpies get shot out of the air.

I think this list will do better but its still silly..

HQ: 285

1x Hive Tyrant with wings, twin linked devourers and hive commander 285

Elite: 255
1x doom of malanthai with mycetic spore 140
5x ymgarl genestealers 115


Troops: 500
10x Termagants - 50pts
10x Termagants - 50pts
1x Tervigon with all psychic powers and toxin sacs 200 pts
1x Tervigon with all psychic powers and toxin sacs 200 pts

Fast Attack: 960
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts

Don't you need 2 HQ, 4 Troops minimum for double force org?

I wasn't sure because the original armylist also got one HQ. If so, I would get another Flying hive instead of those ymgarl + doom.

Yea...just realized that I overlooked that rule. Fixed it to take the 2nd HQ into account. On a side note though, that is still 30 large blast pie plates coming in, turn two, as I recall. Also, for those questioning my sanity at this point, when dealing with heavy armor, I don't have to shoot my weapons. If all the infantry dies turn two, turn 3, there can be some serious Smash attacks happening.

Would this not be worth a run out?

FYI: I hate Termagants so I binned them all!

Comes in at 1995pts.

> Massive sweeping advance on 1 half of the board and fire support from the Warriors and Zoanthrope...
> Enough Synapse (Shrikes, Parasite & HT) that the Harpy's are not going to run away at the first available opportunity.
> Venomthrope for 5+ cover save for the Warriors.

Looks like a good laugh...


HQ

1x Hive Tyrant - Scything Talons, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Wings, Psychic Scream, Leech Essence = 230 pts.
1x Parasite Of Mortrex - 160 pts.


Troops

3x Warrior - Basic Setup = 90 pts.
3x Warrior - Basic Setup = 90 pts.
3x Warrior - Basic Setup = 90 pts.
3x Warrior - Basic Setup = 90 pts.


Elite

1x Venomthrope - 55 pts.
1x Zoanthrope - 60 pts.


Fast Attack

30x Gargoyles - 156 pts.
9x Shrikes - 315 pts.
9x Shrikes - 315 pts.
2x Harpy - TL Stranglethorn Cannons 640 pts.

I know you really like the idea of trowing around a lot of pie plates but a lot of competitive armies will tear your list apart.

Riptides, wraithknights, broadsides with interceptor, wave serpents. Those Harpies are just to fragile.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Yea...just realized that I overlooked that rule. Fixed it to take the 2nd HQ into account. On a side note though, that is still 30 large blast pie plates coming in, turn two, as I recall. Also, for those questioning my sanity at this point, when dealing with heavy armor, I don't have to shoot my weapons. If all the infantry dies turn two, turn 3, there can be some serious Smash attacks happening.

Giving the 12" glide or 18" + zoom option + 36" guns, I see no reason not to take first turn, start on the board and jam 30 pie plates in the face turn one.

Shogun - Everything is fragile when you offer a hard counter for it.
But keep in mind those units you posted dont want to be in combat.
Harpies dont have much of an issue getting into combat with their speed.
They may not be amazing, but any MC will open them up in CC.

I like the list to be honest.
I used to run twin harpies along side twin flyrants and they worked out pretty solid.

Might be worth dropping 1 though and taking a screen of gargoyles.

 Jackal wrote:
Shogun - Everything is fragile when you offer a hard counter for it.
But keep in mind those units you posted dont want to be in combat.
Harpies dont have much of an issue getting into combat with their speed.
They may not be amazing, but any MC will open them up in CC.

They're a lot of things that really hurt those Harpies because their just to fragile. I just named a few and they're a lot more:

Greater daemons
Necron flyers + barges
Helldrakes (vector strike)
obliterators
wraithguard
loota's in a battlewagon
vendetta's with plasma veterans

They're a lot of things that dont really care about S5/6 large blasts and they're a lot of them.


Apart from that... why would a harpy want to get in close combat with a riptide or wraithknight? One smash attack and its dead..

Again, you have named solid units there.
Those units really do piss over alot of other units.

Thats like saying "dont take tanks, they have a lascannon"
Theres allways going to be something in an army that can kill anything you bring, otherwise the game would be pointless.

1 smash attack and its dead, with about a 35% chance of actually doing so.
The riptide does its damage at range and relies on quick movement to stay out of trouble.
Pin it in combat and you can bring it down with alot more ease since it cant run off.

Nids cant rely on shooting a riptide, the severe lack of low AP weapons means it will take too long.
They only way to kill one reliably is in combat.


Granted, harpies are far from solid monsters, and bringing them down really isnt that hard to do.
But how do you bring 6 down before they start causing damage?
They arent massive on points (and granted, you can cause more damager per point with something else)
But they also arent useless.

Out of your 2nd list though.

GD's - Allways a problem for anyone, they are pretty damn solid.

Cron flyers + barges - Barges are easy to smash in combat, flyers not soo much.

Helldrakes - Not including tau, who dont have issues with helldrakes?

Oblitz - Again, like above, they are a solid choice in 95% of every competative army, they will allways pose a threat.

Wraithguard - Erm, your kidding right? at what point will they have the range to hit one, and not have to snapfire at it?

Lootas in a wagon - Rear armour is gak, and its going to be sat still, so popping it isnt an issue really, neither are orks since they might as well not have a save.
Keep in mind the harpies drop plates in a large volume, why would you sit still with a unit with little to no save and shoot them?

Vendettas with plasma vets - Vendettas are the kings of the sky, and easily the best airbourne thing in the game, of course they can kill harpies. (along with most other things)


However, take a look through that list and throw a points cost next to each of those, then compare it to the 160 for a harpy.
I can kill a 160 point model aswell when i pour 300+ points into it.

How does this sound for a Single FOC list?

HQ: 570
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings, Old Adversary - 285pts
1x Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings, Old Adversary - 285pts

Elites: 340
2x Zoanthropes w/ Spore Pod w/ Cluster Spines - 170pts
2x Zoanthropes w/ Spore Pod w/ Cluster Spines - 170pts

Troops: 540
10x Termagants - 50pts
10x Termagants - 50pts
1x Tervigon w/ Toxin Sacs- 170pts
1x Tervigon w/ Toxin Sacs- 170pts
3x Tyranid Warriors w/ Barbed Strangler - 100pts

Fast Attack: 480
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts
1x Harpy w/ Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines - 160pts

Fortification: 70
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay - 70pts

I'd lose the Zoey Spods for another squad of 2 Zoeys.

Really, how come?

Well...how are you using the Zoeys?

I generally pump up Tyrants, Broodlords, and sometimes Tervigons with Biomancy. My Zoanthropes are 100% Telekinesis. Telekine Dome is mean. I have had a fire warrior squads shoot itself half to death off of telekine dome saves.

Personally I would be aiming for Endurance and Telekine Dome to boost the defensive abilities of the Tyrants and Harpies.

Seeing as your Harpies don't have to be swooping to be in range, they can consistently be in range of psychic buffs.

General plan was for standard lances for anti-armor, potentially splitting one off from each group for additional biomancy. Basically, the Harpies and Hive Tyrants run around shooting anything in sight, the Tyrants passing out buffs as needed, while the Zoanthropes jump into the chaos and down any armor in the area.

 Jackal wrote:
Again, you have named solid units there.
Those units really do piss over alot of other units.

Thats like saying "dont take tanks, they have a lascannon"

No it's not, because all these units are frequently present in all competitive armylists. I am not simply talking about the one anti-harpy unit/armylist that could ruin your day.

 Jackal wrote:

1 smash attack and its dead, with about a 35% chance of actually doing so.
The riptide does its damage at range and relies on quick movement to stay out of trouble.
Pin it in combat and you can bring it down with alot more ease since it cant run off.

Nids cant rely on shooting a riptide, the severe lack of low AP weapons means it will take too long.
They only way to kill one reliably is in combat.

And how do you think that tau list looks like? for 2000 points you can expect sum riptides. You give me the math of one single smash attack but riptides don't suffer from instant death with Toughness 6. If 3 harpies get a total of 6 smash attacks , you get about 4 hits, and 3 wounds at best (after to wound and a 5+ inv save). If that riptide gets his 3+inv save then the will be screwed. Meanwhile every riptide hit almost (2+ to wound) instant kills.

 Jackal wrote:

Granted, harpies are far from solid monsters, and bringing them down really isnt that hard to do.
But how do you bring 6 down before they start causing damage?
They arent massive on points (and granted, you can cause more damager per point with something else)
But they also arent useless.

No, they're not useless but apart from the fact that horde armies are not really a threat in a competitive setting, you can take down harpies with almost any weapon. A few hits will take 2 or 3 down to the floor with already one wound. After that the will get killed and those other 3 will not make up for their loss.

 Jackal wrote:

Out of your 2nd list though.

GD's - Allways a problem for anyone, they are pretty damn solid.

Cron flyers + barges - Barges are easy to smash in combat, flyers not soo much.

Helldrakes - Not including tau, who dont have issues with helldrakes?

Oblitz - Again, like above, they are a solid choice in 95% of every competative army, they will allways pose a threat.

Wraithguard - Erm, your kidding right? at what point will they have the range to hit one, and not have to snapfire at it?

Lootas in a wagon - Rear armour is gak, and its going to be sat still, so popping it isnt an issue really, neither are orks since they might as well not have a save.
Keep in mind the harpies drop plates in a large volume, why would you sit still with a unit with little to no save and shoot them?

Vendettas with plasma vets - Vendettas are the kings of the sky, and easily the best airbourne thing in the game, of course they can kill harpies. (along with most other things)

I think its obvious that those wraithguard go within a wave serpent. Wraithguard get out, wave serpent shoots or sum other unit until a harpy drops. With a spiritseer you can also make sure that you will at least get one average hit (wraithlock or sumthing?) when shooting with 5 wraithguard at a flying MC, and that's a hit with S10 so instant kill. If you want to try to stay out of a wraithguards range with 6 flying MC's then you got to glide at sum point and then those wave serpents kill you.

If you charge 15 loota's in a battlewagon a harpy can get killed by overwatch fire.

So, do you agree that this harpylist doesn't stand a chance against a good combination of these units?

 Jackal wrote:

However, take a look through that list and throw a points cost next to each of those, then compare it to the 160 for a harpy.
I can kill a 160 point model aswell when i pour 300+ points into it.

when you compare points then the harpy would still lose most times. Spend 320 points on these units and the can take down 2 harpies with ease. Don't compare 160 with 300+ points in a 2000 point versus 2000 point game.

Well somebody got a little harsh. Harpies have a variety of different uses and can easily evade broadsides and riptides while killing the kroot and fire warriors that are usually in front of them.

I have won my fair share of tournaments and have never faced a list containing a wraithknight, necron flyers, helldrakes, obliterators, wraithguard, or loota's in a battlewagon.

Back on topic:

If you're opponent has little armor...those zoeys will become force multipliers by blessing your bugs...much more worth their points than lances and blasts.

I see your point. As long as one Zoanthrope rolls Iron Arm in each group, your always going to be rolling around with T7 Zoanthrope pairs. Then basically send out every other buff to those harpies, that way you can keep the same plan rollin' round after round.

 ductvader wrote:

I have won my fair share of tournaments and have never faced a list containing a wraithknight, necron flyers, helldrakes, obliterators, wraithguard, or loota's in a battlewagon.

Then thats why you won the tournament...

I think its obvious that those wraithguard go within a wave serpent. Wraithguard get out, wave serpent shoots or sum other unit until a harpy drops. With a spiritseer you can also make sure that you will at least get one average hit (wraithlock or sumthing?) when shooting with 5 wraithguard at a flying MC, and that's a hit with S10 so instant kill. If you want to try to stay out of a wraithguards range with 6 flying MC's then you got to glide at sum point and then those wave serpents kill you.

If you charge 15 loota's in a battlewagon a harpy can get killed by overwatch fire.

So, do you agree that this harpylist doesn't stand a chance against a good combination of these units?

So, spiritseer, wraithlock, 5 wraithguard, serpent, and another unit to shoot them.
Theres half a list at 2k.

15 lootas overwatching is quite amusing really, since you roll all shots at the same time, so they will all be snap shotting at it.
Average of 30 shots causing 6 hits.
Your not going to kill it in a single turn.
Not to mention thats 225 points plus a bloody battlewagon.



I get your point about running units in a synergy to help eachother out, but your missing the point here.
If you sink 400 points into killing 1 harpy, your working on over double your points rate, meaning that you will be spending 2k points to kill around 850 or so worth of models.
In which case, what about the rest of the army?

Its called target saturation.
Have enough threats to draw fire and an army that pools too much together kills its self as it cant kill the targets quick enough.

If someone wanted to spend 1,200 points shooting my harpies, i'd laugh and let them carry on because the rest of my army isnt being shot at.
Harpies may have a poor profile, but being a FMC boosts that alot.

There are tons of units that really are terrible, but its more about the abilities and what they can do.

If you want to get into multiple units for high output, then great.
Nids suffer against units that remove saves and strike before they do, so use a harpy to drop the initiative then rush in with a unit like ymgarls at the same time.


I really do get your point that there is more than just those units on the table, but thats 1 sided.
All the time your using 2-4 units to kill something, your leaving yourself alot more targets that are getting close and where they need to be.



Edit:

I have won my fair share of tournaments and have never faced a list containing a wraithknight, necron flyers, helldrakes, obliterators, wraithguard, or loota's in a battlewagon.

Then i'd say players were either going for something different, or were kissing out some really solid choices.
Most tau i play against run 2-3 riptides, all crons have air support of some kind and helldrakes are bloody everywhere -_-
Atleast lootas and oblitz are pretty much stood still all game.

 Jackal wrote:

I think its obvious that those wraithguard go within a wave serpent. Wraithguard get out, wave serpent shoots or sum other unit until a harpy drops. With a spiritseer you can also make sure that you will at least get one average hit (wraithlock or sumthing?) when shooting with 5 wraithguard at a flying MC, and that's a hit with S10 so instant kill. If you want to try to stay out of a wraithguards range with 6 flying MC's then you got to glide at sum point and then those wave serpents kill you.

If you charge 15 loota's in a battlewagon a harpy can get killed by overwatch fire.

So, do you agree that this harpylist doesn't stand a chance against a good combination of these units?

So, spiritseer, wraithlock, 5 wraithguard, serpent, and another unit to shoot them.
Theres half a list at 2k.

So? One unit can shoot down a flying harpy, shoot the next one with overwatch and still kill another in close combat..

 Jackal wrote:

15 lootas overwatching is quite amusing really, since you roll all shots at the same time, so they will all be snap shotting at it.
Average of 30 shots causing 6 hits.
Your not going to kill it in a single turn.
Not to mention thats 225 points plus a bloody battlewagon.

Ehhh.. loota's are ap4 so yea 6 hits will kill a harpy. Dont see why thats amusing..

 Jackal wrote:

I get your point about running units in a synergy to help eachother out, but your missing the point here.
If you sink 400 points into killing 1 harpy, your working on over double your points rate, meaning that you will be spending 2k points to kill around 850 or so worth of models.
In which case, what about the rest of the army?

Its called target saturation.
Have enough threats to draw fire and an army that pools too much together kills its self as it cant kill the targets quick enough.

If someone wanted to spend 1,200 points shooting my harpies, i'd laugh and let them carry on because the rest of my army isnt being shot at.
Harpies may have a poor profile, but being a FMC boosts that alot.

There are tons of units that really are terrible, but its more about the abilities and what they can do.

If you want to get into multiple units for high output, then great.
Nids suffer against units that remove saves and strike before they do, so use a harpy to drop the initiative then rush in with a unit like ymgarls at the same time.


I really do get your point that there is more than just those units on the table, but thats 1 sided.
All the time your using 2-4 units to kill something, your leaving yourself alot more targets that are getting close and where they need to be.

They're more (competitive) units that can take on a few harpies then the other way around. You're the one who is comparing points not me, but if you want I can give you a few competitive armylists that laugh at harpies. And these lists are not the "paper" to the harpy-"rock" because these list are made to take all comers.

I know about target saturation but if my 1200 point shooting kills about 3 harpies then I did a good job. The rest (3) of the harpies are still not a big threat and the will lose the following turn and the game..

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you plan on wiping out 3 harpies on that first arriving turn, your going to have very little in the way to counter anything in the following turn since they count as having been fired.

But the 1200 points isn't killing 3 Harpies a turn. It's killing about 1.5 Harpies a turn (realistically, and assuming the Tyranids player is stupid), and then dying because the rest of the Tyranid army is in combat next turn.

Competitive lists aren't armor reliant right now. Why? Because 6th edition introduced a crazy concept: more objective-based games. Boots on the ground are ABSOLUTELY necessary, so there are a lot more infantry now than tanks. Even one round of shooting from 3 Harpies, let alone 6, is going to do monstrous damage (no pun intended). If there are also Flyrants, Tervigons, and Trygons on the board? A Doom dropping in? Why are you shooting at all the Harpies as opposed to those more dangerous units? Concurrently, if you aren't shooting the Harpies down, you won't have infantry after turn 2-3 and can't win the game anyway.

I think this is a pretty solid list idea overall. Sure, the Tyranids are rather mono-build, and a lot of their units are self-defeating and/or overpriced, but there are effective lists out there. This may be a nice change of pace. People aren't coming expecting Harpies, because the interwebs tells them they are bad. They expect the Flyrants and Tervigons, and will likely target them (failing to eliminate them thanks to Iron Arm and/or Endurance).

All the units you (shogun) have listed that "deal" with Harpies are likely going to be aiming their fire at other units. Tyranids only need 2-3 turns to have the majority of their force in combat where they win against most lists.

All dem Harpies, all dem hamboigahs.

What will you do to model them all?

I make mine out of outdated Tyrants. They're smaller and generally you can find them cheap...tilt them forward...put guns and wings on...replace legs with scything talons...done

That's more for the P&M area, but Trygons and Tyrant wings.

 brassangel wrote:
But the 1200 points isn't killing 3 Harpies a turn. It's killing about 1.5 Harpies a turn (realistically, and assuming the Tyranids player is stupid), and then dying because the rest of the Tyranid army is in combat next turn.

1.5 harpies? How do you get this number? You really think that 1200 points of shooting will only kill one and a half harpy? What about this:

3 High yield missle pod broadsides with interceptor = 210
riptide with interceptor and skyfire = 205
riptide with interceptor and skyfire = 205

or

5 dire avengers with wave serpent (scatter laser and holofields) = 200
5 dire avengers with wave serpent (scatter laser and holofields) = 200
5 dire avengers with wave serpent (scatter laser and holofields) = 200

wraithknight = 240
wraithknight = 240

or

vendetta with veterans + 3 plasmaguns 245
vendetta with veterans + 3 plasmaguns 245
vendetta with veterans + 3 plasmaguns 245

Do I really need to go on...

 brassangel wrote:

Competitive lists aren't armor reliant right now. Why? Because 6th edition introduced a crazy concept: more objective-based games. Boots on the ground are ABSOLUTELY necessary, so there are a lot more infantry now than tanks. Even one round of shooting from 3 Harpies, let alone 6, is going to do monstrous damage (no pun intended). If there are also Flyrants, Tervigons, and Trygons on the board? A Doom dropping in? Why are you shooting at all the Harpies as opposed to those more dangerous units? Concurrently, if you aren't shooting the Harpies down, you won't have infantry after turn 2-3 and can't win the game anyway.

Yes, you need scoring units for objectives bu not on the ground. Waveserpents, necron scythes, vendetta's are the way to go. Other infantry units can simply stay in reserves and move behind a defence line. When the go to ground the get a 2+ coversave and still shoot snap shots at the harpies.

 brassangel wrote:

I think this is a pretty solid list idea overall. Sure, the Tyranids are rather mono-build, and a lot of their units are self-defeating and/or overpriced, but there are effective lists out there. This may be a nice change of pace. People aren't coming expecting Harpies, because the interwebs tells them they are bad. They expect the Flyrants and Tervigons, and will likely target them (failing to eliminate them thanks to Iron Arm and/or Endurance).

All the units you (shogun) have listed that "deal" with Harpies are likely going to be aiming their fire at other units. Tyranids only need 2-3 turns to have the majority of their force in combat where they win against most lists.

Yes, tyranids need the "get in their face" strategy. But if you want to do that then you have to leave the harpies at home and bring the following:

2000 points

HQ Swarmlord with tyrant guard
HQ flying hive with devourers and hive commander

TROOPS tervigon with all powers and toxin sacs
TROOPS tervigon with all powers and toxin sacs
TROOPS 10 guants
TROOPS 10 guants

ELITE Doom in mycitic spore
ELITE ymgarl genestealers
ELITE ymgarl genestealers

HEAVY SUPPORT Trygon
HEAVY SUPPORT Trygon

One tervigon outflanks (with reroll) and the swarmlord tries to get the telekinesis teleport power. You need to be in their face turn 2.