Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I got thinking about the recently when i reread the novel Warriors of Ultramar. Its the only novel I have come across that mentions post heresy loyal Space Marines useing Power Scythes. This got me thinking why when every other form of power weapon caught on did the Power Scythe not? Its not because the weapon is now associated with the Death Gaurd because even pre heresy the Power Scythe was a rare sight amongst space marines as they favored other weapons such as the Power Sword, Power Axe and Thunder Hammer.

So can anyone think of what the Power Scythe lacks that caused it to be shunned for other wepaons?

(p.s. Sorry for any bad spelling my spell checkers packed up and im dyslexic)

It's probaly because a scythe is a really lousy weapon. The only one who gets away with wielding a scythe like a weapon in my book is Death, and that's because he's already dead and as such can't kill himself by mistake with it.

A scythe is a very bad weapon. There's a reason no soldiers use scythes.

Also, war scythes look very different to a sickle used for harvesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe

It functions more like a halberd or spear like polearm, so the answer is: it is represented by 'Power Spear' in the Warhammer 40k rulebook.

A scythe made for war looks more like a glaive than what you would call a Scythe.

Calling it a power spear though, is quite faulty. A war scythe was made to be massively heavy and have a huge amount of leverage for enormous sweeping slashes that could go through even heavy armor. Using it only to stab wastes the potential it's leverage provides.

It is difficult to use, simple. And brings little to the table.

A sword is balanced and quick, and while it doesn't have penetrating power of an axe or scythe can cut through most things.

An axe is heavier and a bit more clumsy but hits hard. Its shape also gives it a wide area to hit with and can be wielded 1-handed.

A maul is just a club, easy to use and hits hard but low penetration, sane with a Thunder Hammer and powerfist.

A spear is good with the tip but unwieldy otherwise.



A scythe has the same unwieldiness of a spear due to length, but not as much due to the blade. However, it is slow like an axe but has a differnt blade that is much harder to land a blow with the sweet spot of the cutting edge.

The Necrons get away with it because theirs can cut through other power weapons in the fluff.

 Kain wrote:
A scythe made for war looks more like a glaive than what you would call a Scythe.

Calling it a power spear though, is quite faulty. A war scythe was made to be massively heavy and have a huge amount of leverage for enormous sweeping slashes that could go through even heavy armor. Using it only to stab wastes the potential it's leverage provides.

It loosely resembles a Halberd, but isn't really that similar either.
You can only represent that two ways:

Spear: You need to build up momentum, so attacking when charging it is more powerful, but afterwards becomes cumbersome and hard to use.
Power Axe: Large and unwieldy, but has the extra power

However both those can be used one-handed, and their 'spear' is more of a lance or mounted spear in how it behaves.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The only one who gets away with wielding a scythe like a weapon in my book is Death, and that's because he's already dead and as such can't kill himself by mistake with it.

Well, Death doesn't really use it as a weapon. It's a symbol of him harvesting - reaping - souls.

For all the gloomy associations we have today with the word "Reaper" (e.g. computer games), mainly because it's meant to make you think of the Grim Reaper, the genesis of the word was probably the other way around. A reaper was just the guy (or girl) bringing in the harvest. And the Grim Reaper did the same job for his slightly more metaphysical crop.

 Kain wrote:
A scythe made for war looks more like a glaive than what you would call a Scythe.

Calling it a power spear though, is quite faulty. A war scythe was made to be massively heavy and have a huge amount of leverage for enormous sweeping slashes that could go through even heavy armor. Using it only to stab wastes the potential it's leverage provides.

So, Power Axe then?

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:
A scythe made for war looks more like a glaive than what you would call a Scythe.

Calling it a power spear though, is quite faulty. A war scythe was made to be massively heavy and have a huge amount of leverage for enormous sweeping slashes that could go through even heavy armor. Using it only to stab wastes the potential it's leverage provides.

It loosely resembles a Halberd, but isn't really that similar either.
You can only represent that two ways:

Spear: You need to build up momentum, so attacking when charging it is more powerful, but afterwards becomes cumbersome and hard to use.
Power Axe: Large and unwieldy, but has the extra power

However both those can be used one-handed, and their 'spear' is more of a lance or mounted spear in how it behaves.

Or you could just play necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 Kain wrote:
A scythe made for war looks more like a glaive than what you would call a Scythe.

Calling it a power spear though, is quite faulty. A war scythe was made to be massively heavy and have a huge amount of leverage for enormous sweeping slashes that could go through even heavy armor. Using it only to stab wastes the potential it's leverage provides.

So, Power Axe then?

Seems like the best option.

Well, Spears (and to a lesser degree Axes) are historically easier to make than swords.

Whether a civilization simply doesn't have the skills to make good swords, or you simply want to arm the rabble, a spear's really just a sharp (and comparatively small) piece of metal (or even stone, fire-hardened wood) on top of a stick.

Similarly, you can see flintstone axes etc.. going back quite a bit in human history, demonstrating how they are comparatively easy to craft.

Not to mention that both Spear and Axes have hunting/utility functions that may make them more widely available to those that are not professional full-time warriors.

A sword is tougher to make, and really only useful for fighting (or displaying social status).

Typhus has a Scythe. Besides its other stats it is Unwieldy and AP 2. Much like a Power Axe.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The only one who gets away with wielding a scythe like a weapon in my book is Death, and that's because he's already dead and as such can't kill himself by mistake with it.

Well, Death doesn't really use it as a weapon. It's a symbol of him harvesting - reaping - souls.

For all the gloomy associations we have today with the word "Reaper" (e.g. computer games), mainly because it's meant to make you think of the Grim Reaper, the genesis of the word was probably the other way around. A reaper was just the guy (or girl) bringing in the harvest. And the Grim Reaper did the same job for his slightly more metaphysical crop.

Well, yes, but popular culture has turned it into a weapon. I'm well aware of the connotations with the scythe being used for reapin.

Real reapers use missile launchers.

 Deadshot wrote:
It is difficult to use, simple. And brings little to the table.

A sword is balanced and quick, and while it doesn't have penetrating power of an axe or scythe can cut through most things.

An axe is heavier and a bit more clumsy but hits hard. Its shape also gives it a wide area to hit with and can be wielded 1-handed.

A maul is just a club, easy to use and hits hard but low penetration, sane with a Thunder Hammer and powerfist.

A spear is good with the tip but unwieldy otherwise.



A scythe has the same unwieldiness of a spear due to length, but not as much due to the blade. However, it is slow like an axe but has a differnt blade that is much harder to land a blow with the sweet spot of the cutting edge.

Sadly GW got most of the weapons all wrong. An Axe or Halberd is not a difficult to use weapon, it certainly isn't slow.

A Mace is the best thing to use against armor because it does blunt damage, which will pass through the armor and into the body. You can break bones and pulp flesh without penetrating the armor. Meanwhile a sword is best against unarmored or lightly armored foes, its going to do very little against high quality plate, unlike the mace which is the preferred weapon.

The only one they got kinda right was the power lance.

An axe's mass is all concentrated into one area meaning its going to be slower than a sword (but still not as slow as GW made it, ever), which has a pommel for balance.

A Mace can do well against heavier armoured foes, IF the foe wasn't armoured by PA or TDA. PA has been reinforced since MkV pattern to resist the effects of their own weapons. Hence, its ideal to have armour that protects against your own weapons as the opponent (traitor marines) have the same.

Sword they sort of had to go with. PS is the most common power weapon bit availible. Many people were outraged initially when tey realised very few of their weapons could kill TEQ in 6th. Imagine the nerdrage is they had been made AP4 or worse.

Halberd, I definately agree on. Dead wrong. Halberds are only similar to axes in that the mass is in one end, but because of their length and the rules of moments and pivots, the effects are migitated and are actually very fast, and have great cleaving power.

The GK Halberd is a better representation of how a real Halberd would work.


If they wanted to be realistic, they should have done the following(note this would not be a fair system as far as points go, different kinds would have to cost more than others)


Sword: AP4

Axe: +1str, AP2

Mace: +2str, AP2, Concussive, -1 initiative

Lance/Spear: +1str on the charge, +1 initiative, AP3


They would have to be costed accordingly. Swords might be 10 pts, Axes and Lances 15, and Maces 20.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Halberd is a better representation of how a real Halberd would work.


If they wanted to be realistic, they should have done the following(note this would not be a fair system as far as points go, different kinds would have to cost more than others)


Sword: AP4

Axe: +1str, AP2

Mace: +2str, AP2, Concussive, -1 initiative

Lance/Spear: +1str on the charge, +1 initiative, AP3


They would have to be costed accordingly. Swords might be 10 pts, Axes and Lances 15, and Maces 20.

Agree 100% on the Halberds. It is a fast and deadly weapon. Its also very stupid how one model with a Halberd is Strength 5 and Int 6, because he's silver, yet one in red, blue or purple is Str 5 Int 1.


As for the weapons profiles I severely disagree. Swords stay AP3 to avoid nerdrage the Hobby over, as it is the one a lot of people still have on models, unless they decided they wanted to swap it out and was legal (the whole DCA and Crusader debate).

Like I said, maces are not ideal for penetrating power armour which has recoil dampeners, which reduce the shock of a gun recoil. This would also protect the user from most of the damage of impact weapons but the outer metal would still be damaged. Mauls are also surprisingly fast. +2 Str, AP4 concussive

Axes would be +1 Str and AP2, -1 Int. Not only does this match the same statline as the Space Marine video game, but would also match its real life relationship to swords. Slightly slower and more clumsy, but great cleaving power.

I'm not a fan of the recosting idea either, but let's leave it to its own thread.


In answer to the OP, it didn't catch on because it is a very bad weapon. Very clumsy, very small area with which to inflict damage, and it is very hard to get the enemy in position to slash them properly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The only one who gets away with wielding a scythe like a weapon in my book is Death, and that's because he's already dead and as such can't kill himself by mistake with it.

Well, Death doesn't really use it as a weapon. It's a symbol of him harvesting - reaping - souls.

For all the gloomy associations we have today with the word "Reaper" (e.g. computer games), mainly because it's meant to make you think of the Grim Reaper, the genesis of the word was probably the other way around. A reaper was just the guy (or girl) bringing in the harvest. And the Grim Reaper did the same job for his slightly more metaphysical crop.

Well, yes, but popular culture has turned it into a weapon. I'm well aware of the connotations with the scythe being used for reapin.

The Chinese had several pole-arm weapons built around a straight handled variant of the typical western scythe. For the record, very deadly and very difficult to wield properly as they tend to bit the wielder, I say that having learned a little about how to use them.

Actually there are very gruesomely effective scythes that make full use of the leverage, the large size of the curved blade and the extremly potent stab em with the pointy end after a large swing. The problem is that the sharp edge of these is on the outside not the inside and thuse is used for arching slashes that are aimed away from the guy wielding it. A normal scythe like death or typhus wields is not a weapon, its a tool. The same reason the Power Shovel never caught on applies here.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Halberd is a better representation of how a real Halberd would work.


If they wanted to be realistic, they should have done the following(note this would not be a fair system as far as points go, different kinds would have to cost more than others)


Sword: AP4

Axe: +1str, AP2

Mace: +2str, AP2, Concussive, -1 initiative

Lance/Spear: +1str on the charge, +1 initiative, AP3


They would have to be costed accordingly. Swords might be 10 pts, Axes and Lances 15, and Maces 20.

Agree 100% on the Halberds. It is a fast and deadly weapon. Its also very stupid how one model with a Halberd is Strength 5 and Int 6, because he's silver, yet one in red, blue or purple is Str 5 Int 1.


As for the weapons profiles I severely disagree. Swords stay AP3 to avoid nerdrage the Hobby over, as it is the one a lot of people still have on models, unless they decided they wanted to swap it out and was legal (the whole DCA and Crusader debate).

Like I said, maces are not ideal for penetrating power armour which has recoil dampeners, which reduce the shock of a gun recoil. This would also protect the user from most of the damage of impact weapons but the outer metal would still be damaged. Mauls are also surprisingly fast. +2 Str, AP4 concussive

Axes would be +1 Str and AP2, -1 Int. Not only does this match the same statline as the Space Marine video game, but would also match its real life relationship to swords. Slightly slower and more clumsy, but great cleaving power.

I'm not a fan of the recosting idea either, but let's leave it to its own thread.


In answer to the OP, it didn't catch on because it is a very bad weapon. Very clumsy, very small area with which to inflict damage, and it is very hard to get the enemy in position to slash them properly.

My stats were more for realism than a practical set of rules. I wouldn't expect anybody to take a sword with those stats.

Scythes are made for cutting grasses near the roots, if you try to slash at my feet with a (two handed) hook, im gonna stab you in the eye, a lot.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Halberd is a better representation of how a real Halberd would work.

If they wanted to be realistic, they should have done the following(note this would not be a fair system as far as points go, different kinds would have to cost more than others)

Sword: AP4

Axe: +1str, AP2

Mace: +2str, AP2, Concussive, -1 initiative

Lance/Spear: +1str on the charge, +1 initiative, AP3

They would have to be costed accordingly. Swords might be 10 pts, Axes and Lances 15, and Maces 20.

"Realistic"?

The blade is sheathed in a power field that annihilates matter on the atomic level. "Realistically", there should be no material capable of stopping it.

Also, swords may not have as much piercing ability on a slash as an axe for example, but they were far more versatile weapons than most, which is why they required more training (Which also factors into what Zwei was talking about earlier, the common rabble were equipped with spears or axes partly because it was easier to train peasants with such weapons). How would you factor that into the profile?

That's not how power fields work.

They cause molecular bonds to destabilize. They don't cause atomic bonds to break or annihilate atoms. That would mean a small nuclear explosion every time someone activated their power sword.

By destabilizing the molecular bonds, the field enhances the normal qualities of the weapon.

Maces really would have made more sense as the AP2 weapon though. Thunder Hammers are AP2, Power Mauls and Maces are just weaker versions of Thunder Hammers, after all.

Thunderhammers and Power Fists have either a more powerful generator or are crushing weapons and are more unwieldy than the one-handed weapons.

The AP is a lot down to the power field generator rather than the type of weapon, though the type of weapon influences it a bit: an Axe concentrates the power field to a smaller point.

Also, Thunderhammers unleash a built up charge on impact rather than being power field based. They don't work that similarly to the power maul at all.

A power scythe would be no good, it's too clumsy and lacks the raw power of a thunder hammer.

In the game Space Marine the thunder hammer was very slow but very powerful, but the power axe made for much faster and graphic kills. Compared to these two, where one is fast and one is powerful the scythe is too clumsy and has no advantages

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's not how power fields work.

They cause molecular bonds to destabilize. They don't cause atomic bonds to break or annihilate atoms. That would mean a small nuclear explosion every time someone activated their power sword.

By destabilizing the molecular bonds, the field enhances the normal qualities of the weapon.

yes

and

one would assume that the powerfield does not instantly destabilize all bonds in the area around it, it might take some time for the bonds to break down. As you move the weapon the field starts affecting new matter it is passing through.

A sword is very thin, so would have a small powerfield, and moves very quickly so the field would have less time to affect the matter before it strikes.

A mace is huge, so would have a huge powerfield, and it moves complaritively slowly. The powerfield would affect a far larger area to a much larger degree before the mace actually strikes.

NickOnwezen wrote:
The same reason the Power Shovel never caught on applies here.

Actually, that was because this man dislikes copycats.