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Wow is all I can say.

I tried to assault today and found nothing but pain. There is no reward for doing any assaulting and be it vs Tau it was stupid.

Wait, you get to use a power to get an extra shot at close range. Then you get to support fire your pathfinders so that those same FW's get to snap shot at BS 4?

So I took 60 shots in one phase from one unit.

It got bad when I charged the Broadsides with missile launchers. I took 11 wounds from 2 Broadsides and 2 missile drones. This was a snap fire shot of 6's to hit.

Not sure how long I'm going to stick around with the 6th ed rules.

Allies also seems to make the game unbalanced even more.

I talked to a guy at the store and he said he went to a tourney and played 6 armies. Every single list he played at Typhos w/ zombies, they also had 3 heldrakes. Sounds pretty boring to go to a tourney and play against the same army list EVERY time.

I'm also coming back from 3rd ed. Yes, things are different and in comparison, assaulting is kinda stupid and you just get shot up. You just have to remember that this is a more "shooty" edition and focus on that. Personally, I like the more shooty aspect of 6th. There are some lazy rule writing and even lazier units. (thousand Sons? Really?) But it's a load of fun once you get used to it.

Tournament players exist to play the game on the easiest difficulty setting possible. That they all tend to pool towards a few lists isn't that surprising. Thankfully, most players are looking for a little bit of a challenge and so will bring a greater diversity of lists.

As for the first part, yes, 6th edition really hates assault armies. It's not to say it can't be done in any way, but it's now limited to a much narrower band of armies that can do it successfully.

And as for tau, yeah, it's definitely the worst codex they've come out with in this rules edition. It's basically the most boring play style to play against where all the interesting things you can do against it have had special rules specifically written into the codex to cancel them. It's not that they're overpowered per se, it's that their army exists to prevent you from doing anything. Preventing you from being able to play your army as your army.

Really, the best thing you can do is just not play against tau. Don't let that single codex be the way you judge an entire rules edition, though, as most codices haven't been updated yet, and most of them really aren't that bad. For every necron or tau, there's a dark eldar, CSM, DA, eldar, or demons. On the whole, they're doing a pretty good job, and we've got another few codices coming up pretty soon.

4th was the best for me. Even on shooting and assaulting. I just don't know why the rules are not tweaked to make it better. Instead we get shifting perspectives that break your army.

For example I used to play DH's with Deamon Hosts. It was a very fun list. Now Deamon Hosts are not worth taking and I don't get to play that list any more. It was a good list because I was winning tourneys with it when DH's were not the flavor they are now.

I'm looking at my Nid army and shaking my head. They can't take 60 shots from tau in one turn.

I also think it is ridiculous that I have to run my assault guys across the board and the reward I get is another round of firing. Then I roll a 1,2,4 on my assault into terrain. Great, got snap shot at and now I'm going to get another round of rapid fire and a round of snap shots. I'd like to take the guy that decided this and give him a wood shed beating.

Also now when that assault unit gets close you can step backwards and then fire one shot at max range. It's not a fun way to play when 1 aspect of the game is shut down.

And your opponent was playing it wrong. When they play it right, they have markerlights in everything, so that firewarrior squad has a 1/3 chance of making the next squad fire overwatch at BS2...

... which means the third squad nearby that fires overwatch has a 12% chance of firing at full BS. On overwatch. It's worse if there's a unit of pathfinders in there or something because they can pretty easily give the broadsides next to them BS3 or BS4 overwatch with their twin-linked non-gets-hot plasma weapons or missiles.

Like I said, just don't play against tau. Most other things are fine.

i have grey knights that are a great list. i just haven't painted it yet.

 Ailaros wrote:
Tournament players exist to play the game on the easiest difficulty setting possible. That they all tend to pool towards a few lists isn't that surprising. Thankfully, most players are looking for a little bit of a challenge and so will bring a greater diversity of lists.

As for the first part, yes, 6th edition really hates assault armies. It's not to say it can't be done in any way, but it's now limited to a much narrower band of armies that can do it successfully.

And as for tau, yeah, it's definitely the worst codex they've come out with in this rules edition. It's basically the most boring play style to play against where all the interesting things you can do against it have had special rules specifically written into the codex to cancel them. It's not that they're overpowered per se, it's that their army exists to prevent you from doing anything. Preventing you from being able to play your army as your army.

Really, the best thing you can do is just not play against tau. Don't let that single codex be the way you judge an entire rules edition, though, as most codices haven't been updated yet, and most of them really aren't that bad. For every necron or tau, there's a dark eldar, CSM, DA, eldar, or demons. On the whole, they're doing a pretty good job, and we've got another few codices coming up pretty soon.

+1 for me. You summed up my opinion.

MJThurston wrote:
4th was the best for me. Even on shooting and assaulting. I just don't know why the rules are not tweaked to make it better. Instead we get shifting perspectives that break your army..

Ah, but you see that forces you to buy new models to update your army, or even better buy a new one. Note this isn't GW hate, just the reality. To try and keep a significant flow of revenue from their core customer base, they need to change things up on a regular basis. Think of it as planned obsolescence. Tech companies do this all the time. Why not GW?

-Aeglos

Nevermind, I like how Ailaros summed things up pretty well.

GW is looking to make money off of it. That's plain and simple. I'm upset that they keep breaking things when they make these changes.

I'm willing to pay for new rules if the rules are fun to play but as of right now I don't see the point of playing if half of the game is broke. So now I have to put down my Nids (assault heavy), Space Marines (5th ed rule book), Orks (assault heavy), kaos (assault heavy).

That's 4 of my armies I can't play. I'm not buying more models because frankly I can't afford them anymore with having three children. So I'm left with putting these guys up on the shelves until GW fixes their mistakes.

My buddy who has played 2nd to 6th is selling off his armies. He looked at what he needed to make his armies updated to 6th and it would have cost him $200 per army. He now plays War Machine.

Every company is looking to improve their bottom line but for a game company you shouldn't be forcing people to spend $400+ on each new release of your Codex's or having people not play their armies that they already paid for.

Have you thought of making a house-rule version more tailored to your preferences? This may not be practical but it is the route my friends and I have taken and the game for us is better than ever. Taking aspects of 4th, 5th and even some 6th with a few of our own rules has made the game pretty satisfying. I feel for those who feel stuck by GW's rancid rules writing and price gouging, but at some point you find your own way to adapt or bail completely.

6th would be fine if it had two changes.

Charging units don't get shot at when they charge. (Tau made it heartbreaking with support fire.)

Use 5th ed rules for charging into cover. This roll 3 dice and take the lowest two numbers is crap. If it was take the highest and lowest number then I wouldn't complain, Rolling 1,1,5 sucks.

Daemons are all assault and they're a very competitive army right now.

You can be competitive if you deepstike right next to your enemy. Running across the table is another thing.

Vehicles are not what they used to be.

What are people doing to take care of ripetides? I can't imagine facing 3 of them.

Sounds like initial frustration resulting in an unwillingness to change. Sure, things may have been easier, gone more smoothly, whatever in previous versions. It's now irrelevant.

It's understandably frustrating to have to relearn a game and army that you've grown comfortable and proficient with. It also keeps things from becoming stagnant.

It's all about perspective. If you open yourself to learning new ways to use your army effectively with the new ruleset, and embrace the new challenge rather than dwelling on not being able to play the same way you did under past rules, you will have more fun, and gain deeper understanding of your army.

It's akin to being frustrated that your new economy sedan doesn't drive like your old turbo diesel 4x4.

Evolution is necessary to succeed in anything. Nothing stays the same. Part of the fun is learning to win with your army under any circumstances. Find out what your army can do now, that maybe it couldn't before, rather than what it can't do as well as it once could.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Sounds like initial frustration resulting in an unwillingness to change. Sure, things may have been easier, gone more smoothly, whatever in previous versions. It's now irrelevant.

It's understandably frustrating to have to relearn a game and army that you've grown comfortable and proficient with. It also keeps things from becoming stagnant.

It's all about perspective. If you open yourself to learning new ways to use your army effectively with the new ruleset, and embrace the new challenge rather than dwelling on not being able to play the same way you did under past rules, you will have more fun, and gain deeper understanding of your army.

It's akin to being frustrated that your new economy sedan doesn't drive like your old turbo diesel 4x4.

Evolution is necessary to succeed in anything. Nothing stays the same. Part of the fun is learning to win with your army under any circumstances. Find out what your army can do now, that maybe it couldn't before, rather than what it can't do as well as it once could.

This does not address the increased cost issues or even the REMODELING issues. Remember Chaos BEFORE they FAQ'd the new Codex? That's the ridiculous part. Relearning? Reconfiguring? Whatever. Another $200-$500 bucks to remain competitive? That's a bitch move.

 purplkrush wrote:

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Sounds like initial frustration resulting in an unwillingness to change. Sure, things may have been easier, gone more smoothly, whatever in previous versions. It's now irrelevant.

It's understandably frustrating to have to relearn a game and army that you've grown comfortable and proficient with. It also keeps things from becoming stagnant.

It's all about perspective. If you open yourself to learning new ways to use your army effectively with the new ruleset, and embrace the new challenge rather than dwelling on not being able to play the same way you did under past rules, you will have more fun, and gain deeper understanding of your army.

It's akin to being frustrated that your new economy sedan doesn't drive like your old turbo diesel 4x4.

Evolution is necessary to succeed in anything. Nothing stays the same. Part of the fun is learning to win with your army under any circumstances. Find out what your army can do now, that maybe it couldn't before, rather than what it can't do as well as it once could.

This does not address the increased cost issues or even the REMODELING issues. Remember Chaos BEFORE they FAQ'd the new Codex? That's the ridiculous part. Relearning? Reconfiguring? Whatever. Another $200-$500 bucks to remain competitive? That's a bitch move.

But Badger_Bhoy is correct, you have to adapt.
I have not changed much of my List Building Style, but I have Changed. I have pulled Power Fist off my Sargents and starting Adding Power Swords and Mauls and My BA Assualt Sarges are probably dumping thier Twin Lighting Claws for Twin Pistols.
However I am still using the same Grey Hunters as in 5th, I have not chaged my Long Fangs. I have just started to use them difrently.

I've had to do the same with my Space Wolves which I only started in 6th. Remodeling them to fit more effective builds. Same with Dreadnoughts. They are still viable, just need different tactics and roles.

I definitely understand the frustration, ultimately though, it's still in how one chooses to look at things, positively, or negatively. However, I've also been in your (OP) spot. For example, when WoW drastically hanged the way paladins work with the new expansion, I hate it. I played it a bit, and could have relearned it but for me it wasn't worth it so I canceled my account. I may change my mind later.

You may decide to go on hiatus from 40k, and that's ok, and understandable. However with the significant investments of time and money one makes for this game, it may be worth it to delve into the army, reevaluate it, and your definition of 'competative' and see what changes can be made. I'm sure there are some that don't result in another several hundred dollars worth of investment.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Sounds like initial frustration resulting in an unwillingness to change. Sure, things may have been easier, gone more smoothly, whatever in previous versions. It's now irrelevant.

It's understandably frustrating to have to relearn a game and army that you've grown comfortable and proficient with. It also keeps things from becoming stagnant.

It's all about perspective. If you open yourself to learning new ways to use your army effectively with the new ruleset, and embrace the new challenge rather than dwelling on not being able to play the same way you did under past rules, you will have more fun, and gain deeper understanding of your army.

It's akin to being frustrated that your new economy sedan doesn't drive like your old turbo diesel 4x4.

Evolution is necessary to succeed in anything. Nothing stays the same. Part of the fun is learning to win with your army under any circumstances. Find out what your army can do now, that maybe it couldn't before, rather than what it can't do as well as it once could.

+1. Well said.

You've got to change with the times or continue living in the past. Judging today's game with yesterday's standards is the quickest route to obsolescence. Of course you don't have to play, but if you will just give the new edition a chance, I think you will find that it will grow on you.

At the very least, if you like a challenge, then strive to make your assault armies work. I can tell you that it is absolutely doable. Heck, some of my best armies currently are assault-oriented ones.

 purplkrush wrote:
This does not address the increased cost issues or even the REMODELING issues. Remember Chaos BEFORE they FAQ'd the new Codex? That's the ridiculous part. Relearning? Reconfiguring? Whatever. Another $200-$500 bucks to remain competitive? That's a bitch move.

That is an entirely different issue. The OP is ranting more about the game rules/mechanics. If you don't like the game because you think the models are too expensive or that GW is price-gouging, then by all means, protest by not buying their models or even by not playing their game.

BTW, you don't necessarily have to buy the "latest and the greatest" in order to compete. Oftentimes, it is more of a tactics/strategy adjustment than it is a matter of bandwagoning. So what if every Chaos players run 2 or even 3 heldrakes. Bring Draigowing and then laugh in their face.

Learning new tricks is not the bitch I have.

Four of my armies being unplayable is.

I'm not spending $1200 to make them worth playing.

MJThurston wrote:
Learning new tricks is not the bitch I have.

Four of my armies being unplayable is.

I'm not spending $1200 to make them worth playing.

What exactly is wrong with them that requires $1200? You don't have to run flyers. You don't have to run fortifications. In fact, you can win just fine without these things if winning is what you want.

If you just want to have fun, looks like you just need the latest codex and the right attitude.

MJThurston wrote:
Learning new tricks is not the bitch I have.

Four of my armies being unplayable is.

I'm not spending $1200 to make them worth playing.

I can't for the life of me see where this 1200$ number comes from. When Eldar got updated I spent $200 on new models, that I didn't even need to buy to "stay competitive". I bought them because they look nice and because I wanted more variation. $200 is NOT a lot of money, whatever people seem to believe.

You spend $50 for the codex, me Eldar, Tau, Kaos, DA. That's $200.

Riptides cost $80 plus, need 2 squads of Pathfinders, $70, need 3 broadside to have the missile option $150, Need some etherials. I think they are $20 a piece. $320.

So just codex's and just Tau add on's is $520.

I'm not going to play assault armies. My 3 squads of Plague Marines and 1 squad of Khorne are not going to make it into H2H. Why waste time even playing them!

because all it does is looks like your judging the entire game based on a single game against tau... play against orks, they WANT to assault you, play against other marines.... but screaming you got shot up by tau (which is exactly what they do) its gonna go into thin air. and the best part is as much as you becry what happened to you with tau, i see your spending up to make the same kind of army.... well done

I recently played my first game since 3rd. It was okay, played a 3 way capture the relic or some such mission. I lost, but there were some satisfying moments, like my whirlwind killing about 60 gaunts, gants right after they killed 20 bloodletters. And my rhino killing a bloodthirster at point blank with a hk missile at the very last moment. On the negative side, flying things really threw me as i had nothing that could hit them, and my friend had some tyranid thing called doom or something that killed almost two tactical squads and my command squad while they were locked in combat. Oh and watching my converted seige dread systematically murder the infinite stream of termagants from that thing that craps them out was nice. I think just something to deal with flyers would make my marines competitive again, so thats my plan. Tau were hated in 3rd when i played and i see that hasnt changed, oh well. If i play tau i'll look at getting an allied detachment consisting of deathstrike missile launchers.

Are assaulty Space Wolves still winning tourneys? Or are the shooty ones winning?

MJThurston wrote:
Are assaulty Space Wolves still winning tourneys? Or are the shooty ones winning?

is it winning tournaments or having fun thats important?
because so far you have had the wanted FUN, and now its all about winning? . whats more important to you?

Who plays 40k for fun?

If people played 40k for fun they wouldn't be making power gaming lists.

If assaulting armies are winning tourneyments with 6th ed I'd like to know what they are doing. This way I can try to mold my armies that are assault based into something that can win games.

It sounds like you made this post just to vent after a bad loss. Keep in mind, you are new to these rules, you are new to facing the Tau, and assault armies are very unforgiving.

My first 6th game (skipped all of 5th ed) I got absolutely tabled and it wasn't even close. Game two I stomped my opponent with some better deployment on my part.

On this note:

MJThurston wrote:
You spend $50 for the codex, me Eldar, Tau, Kaos, DA. That's $200.

Riptides cost $80 plus, need 2 squads of Pathfinders, $70, need 3 broadside to have the missile option $150, Need some etherials. I think they are $20 a piece. $320.

So just codex's and just Tau add on's is $520.

I'm not going to play assault armies. My 3 squads of Plague Marines and 1 squad of Khorne are not going to make it into H2H. Why waste time even playing them!

Plague marines do quite nicely as a shooting army.... I don't see why you'd give up on them so easily. If you check out some CSM army lists, you'll see plague marines remain one of the most popular troop choices.

Furthermore, as was previously mentioned - you don't need to spend anywhere near that to bring your Tau up-to-date. I use 0 pathfinders, 0 ethereals, and 0 riptides. I've won more than I've lost in 6th with an army of crisis suits, FWs, and broadsides.

MJThurston wrote:
Who plays 40k for fun?

If people played 40k for fun they wouldn't be making power gaming lists.

If assaulting armies are winning tourneyments with 6th ed I'd like to know what they are doing. This way I can try to mold my armies that are assault based into something that can win games.

A few themes I've noticed:

- Expendable units are used to provide cover and block LoS, so that your expensive assault units live long enough to see CC (cultists for your CSM work wonders).
- Assault vehicle spam - a landraider... or 2.... or 3 while expensive can get your units where they need to go. In 6th you'll see a lot of plasma spam and people taking anti-flyer weapons. This has resulted in AV 14 becoming quite durable despite hullpoints.
- Add some high priority targets so that you opponent has to make a painful decision on whether they want to target your assault unit.

MJThurston wrote:
Who plays 40k for fun?

If people played 40k for fun they wouldn't be making power gaming lists.

If assaulting armies are winning tourneyments with 6th ed I'd like to know what they are doing. This way I can try to mold my armies that are assault based into something that can win games.

Some people like pitting competitive lists against each other and playing. That's how they have fun.

Assaulting armies win by bringing a lot of assault units. That way you make it difficult for your opponent to pick targets. If one or two units get killed you still have other units make into combat. Khorne dogs are a popular way to distract your opponent from shooting other important things. They can scout and ensure 2nd turn assault. Behind them, you send other scary things which are also fast and can get into assault turn 2.

Slaanesh daemons are good at fast assault.