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So, I'm familar with the general opinion of this and the other two builds for the wraithknight. I'm not asking anyone to come on here and tell me how foolish Id be to take it or tell me how much better the the other two are.

I know the wraithcannons are the cheapest and drop some S10 AP2 at good range

I know the suncannon paired with the scatterlaser can be really painful for most enemies.

I'm curious if anyone has used the glaive/shield and A) had fun with it and B) had good tabletop use with it

I could using the set up to utilize the shoulder mounted guns better, so it could still add fire as it moved n for the kill. With a good BS it can pour in 4 S6 AP2 Starcanon shots before charging in with a good WS and dropping 5 S10 AP2 attacks. Unless they're SS/TH termies or the like, that's gonna hurt. Plus S4 can't even touch it, which is what most troops are. It can't be instant killed, has a crapload of wounds so its still gonna be hard to get rid of. You just can't do things like get into combat with Mephiston, or other force weapon wielders, or poison, etc...

Anyways, I'm not so sure this is as bad as everyone's saying. I'm curious to know how many people have ACTUALLY used it or are they just trying to crunch numbers and assume the average is the rule that justifies its "suck" status....

Anyways, whatcha think?
CotW-

I can't see any reason why you'd want to take it. You're already S10, and getting rid of the 2 Wraithcannons just for a single re-roll on an attack just isn't worth it. If you want the shield you might as well go for the Suncannon and a Scatter Laser to reduce blast deviation.

It is not just number punching since it is not hard to image how it would function.

My personal opinion about glaive setup is that the eldar player is paying points to make the unit worse.

Not sure how you figure it makes it worse, it just makes it different. Instead of being set up for ranged combat with the big guns, it keeps a respectable arsenal of heavy weapons while it boosts its melee ability.
It should up the threat level too, what's scarier than a giant mech with an also giant sword? Its not like you can't shoot the HWC or SC/SS version to death anyways...

I haven't heard any first hand experience yet, still just speculation...

Thanks for the replies!
-CotW

Ok, yes i have used one - Ghostglaive, scatter shield, scatter laser, star cannon - 290 points - the Armour cast towering destroyer knight model from 1990

Yes it was at a tourney - 32 players

Was i underwhelmed - yes.

The main issue is that for 10 more points i swap the 2 shot star cannon for the 3 shot suncannon and all i loose is a single reroll in combat.

If you ran it without shoulder weapons to keep it cheap and as a pure assault unit its still less effective than the basic load out which has an impact turn 1.

If the ghost glaive let you reroll all attacks then maybe it would be ok. If it let you reroll failed to wound or armour pen then maybe. With just a single reroll its just not worth the loss in fire power.

Also bear in mind that while the WK is no slouch in combat, even happy to fight hidden power fists simply due to it high T, its still only WS4 which means 2, maybe 3 kills a turn. The glaive barley impacts this either.

I will either run them as stock or the Suncannon/Scatter laser

 The Cry of the Wind wrote:
Not sure how you figure it makes it worse, it just makes it different. Instead of being set up for ranged combat with the big guns, it keeps a respectable arsenal of heavy weapons while it boosts its melee ability.
It should up the threat level too, what's scarier than a giant mech with an also giant sword? Its not like you can't shoot the HWC or SC/SS version to death anyways...

I haven't heard any first hand experience yet, still just speculation...

Thanks for the replies!
-CotW

Speculation ?

That's a really bad argument.

"You have to try it or i won't believe you"

If you are trying to find a way to justify the glaive you wont find it, except for cosmetic purposes.
The pros and cons are so obvious that it doesn't even need mathammer.

Pros;

5+ ınvul save ; neat but you already get that vs shooting just by touching any area terrain, helps vs hammnators but they will still own you.
One reroll hit oppurtinty per dice

Cons;
You loose 2 s10 ap2 shots!!!!! anything else is irrelevant at this point.

Although it is your call to make the model with worse wargear for extra points noone will argue with that

You want re-rolls to hit? Cast Prescience. Now both your S10 shooting and assault is re-rollable. The only advantage of the glaive/scattershield is really the 5++, but then it's really rather easy for MC's nowadays to get 5+ cover from any area terrain. So I guess the only real advantage of the glaive/scattershield is that your WK will look more badass then other WK's.

I'm not saying is a good idea to take glaive/shield, but if you've got to do I'd try it with dual scatter lasers, especially if you are going Iyanden and gain battlefocus. Unfortunately, the only foe you are better against are flyers over the suncannon. 4x the cost for Warwalker firepower on a durable and scary melee frame. Good enough for friendly games, but that is about it.

Strictly speaking Ghostglaive and Scattershiled should have been a 10 point discount.

Zagman wrote:
Strictly speaking Ghostglaive and Scattershiled should have been a 10 point discount.

Or actually do something.. all of the Dreadknight's melee weapon upgrades give some advantage..

Also why doesn't it have the option to not take the Heavy Wraithcannons? Just go totally barebones or just some shoulder mounted weapons?

Far as I can see the only viable builds for the WK are either Stock or Suncannon/Scattershield and Scatterlaser, everything else is a bit of a waste of time.

Its similar the the hammer on the dreadknight, you are already S10 so you pay points to make it worse.

I just think its to expensive to be worth the investment, keeping it stock with 2 wraithcannons has to be the most efficient build, unless I guess you have a particular meta that you need to change for.

I agree with what you guys are saying in respects to the other weapons being a bit more superior, especially at range.
Like I said in my original post, I am aware of they're capabilities.

@pizzaguardian, yeah, you sort of do have to try it to see how it does, otherwise that's pure speculation with zero practical application. Also, in regards to the 5+ cover save instead of the scattershield, guess which one can be taken away by Markerlights and other cover removal abilities? Right, so cover isn't a definite in regards to what you're saying.

I appreciate the replies, but I've still only seen one case of actual tabletop use, for good or for ill.

In no way am I trying to sell anyone one the Glaive/Shield combo, just trying to get some feedback from people who have actually used it in a game or two to see if its something I want to mess with (aside from pure awesome sword-as-big-as-your-tank looking goodness) before I build it. Part of me wants to say screw it, and just go glaive/shield, but I wanted to see if it might be worth it.

Call me a hypocrite for not testing it myself, but I'm not on here telling people how bad something I've never used is either....

Anyways!
Thanks for the replies, any further thoughts are welcome.
-CotW

If you are set on trying it out, then go ahead and try it out. Then come back and let the rest of us knows how it goes. It's obvious not many people have used it because on paper, we don't see the benefits. Perhaps we are too narrow in our thinking and your experiences may convince some of us to give it a go.

Wraith knight is something of a no go for me. I do like it ... but if you upgrade its main weapons it does nothing that two Wraith Lords wouldn't do better. See it for what it is a great big J-MC with 2 very destructive weapons ...

 tuiman wrote:
Its similar the the hammer on the dreadknight, you are already S10 so you pay points to make it worse.

I just think its to expensive to be worth the investment, keeping it stock with 2 wraithcannons has to be the most efficient build, unless I guess you have a particular meta that you need to change for.

In the DKs case, you can blame that on 6es new rules regarding Dreadnought CC weapons and a questionable FAQ that made the DK with a sword still S10 AND still able to reroll all wounds, hits, and armor pens. Broken as hell, and I say that as a former GK player. In 5th using the Hammer was the only way to make the DK S10 since both the sword and fists were only S6...

it definitely looks cooler...

A unit that expensive trading either dual tank-ripping shots or MEQ melting blasts for...

(drum roll)

...1 re-roll

Looks cool, real cool, but no-thanks...

 The Cry of the Wind wrote:
So, I'm familar with the general opinion of this and the other two builds for the wraithknight. I'm not asking anyone to come on here and tell me how foolish Id be to take it or tell me how much better the the other two are.

I know the wraithcannons are the cheapest and drop some S10 AP2 at good range

I know the suncannon paired with the scatterlaser can be really painful for most enemies.

I'm curious if anyone has used the glaive/shield and A) had fun with it and B) had good tabletop use with it

I could using the set up to utilize the shoulder mounted guns better, so it could still add fire as it moved n for the kill. With a good BS it can pour in 4 S6 AP2 Starcanon shots before charging in with a good WS and dropping 5 S10 AP2 attacks. Unless they're SS/TH termies or the like, that's gonna hurt. Plus S4 can't even touch it, which is what most troops are. It can't be instant killed, has a crapload of wounds so its still gonna be hard to get rid of. You just can't do things like get into combat with Mephiston, or other force weapon wielders, or poison, etc...

Anyways, I'm not so sure this is as bad as everyone's saying. I'm curious to know how many people have ACTUALLY used it or are they just trying to crunch numbers and assume the average is the rule that justifies its "suck" status....

Anyways, whatcha think?
CotW-

A) Not really? Sure, a re-roll is good, but for an extra 10 points you lose two S10 AP2 shots that can take multi-wound models straight off of the table. You can't ID a Carnifex with a Ghostglaive, can you? It's not a matter of the Ghostglaive itself, either, but the fact that in order to regain any semblance of similar AP2 power you have to take 20 point upgrades.

B) Tabletop use? Let's see... +1S? Max is S10. WK is S10. AP2? WK is also already AP2 in CC. Master-crafted? If a single re-roll is worth the loss in offensive firepower, go for it. 5++ save? Again, if you feel the loss in firepower is worth the invuln save, go for it.

The weapon itself is cool. Really cool. But at the expense of two very powerful shots? Nope. It simply does not provide enough of a static benefit to replace the loss of firepower. I have no idea why GW decided to make the weapon so mediocre.

Wraithknight is only AP 2 in CC if it smashes which halves its attacks. The glaive gives it its full attack value at AP2. Thats the main attraction, you also get a 5++ that blinds on save as part of the package. If I run a WK as melee, I go Glaive/Shield and 2 Shuriken Cannons, 280 Points.

 S.K.Ren wrote:
Wraithknight is only AP 2 in CC if it smashes which halves its attacks. The glaive gives it its full attack value at AP2. Thats the main attraction, you also get a 5++ that blinds on save as part of the package. If I run a WK as melee, I go Glaive/Shield and 2 Shuriken Cannons, 280 Points.

Wrong. Smash does two things, and only one is dependant on halving your attacks. All the Glaive does is give a Wraithknight a single to-hit reroll. Nothing more.

nvm I see huh yeah then it kinda sucks. Hvy W. Cannons all the way!

Actually the entry says it gives +1S (doesn't matter in this case) and AP2, so he wouldn't have to halve his attacks to smash to gain the AP2. So, there is that, unless I misread something...

Yeah that was my mistake as well. The AP2 from Smash USR is independent of the actual Smash attack.

 The Cry of the Wind wrote:
Actually the entry says it gives +1S (doesn't matter in this case) and AP2, so he wouldn't have to halve his attacks to smash to gain the AP2. So, there is that, unless I misread something...

It's interesting to see how many people don't realize that monstrous creatures get AP2 regardless of whether they use the special smash attacks.

I've used this load out effectively:

Ghostglaive and Scattershield
2 Shuriken Cannons

I use Eldar Aliies for my Tau and protect my Riptides from being assaulted. I can also use him to deter fire from the Riptides by using him aggressively. My opponent has to deal with him leaving Riptide formation free to send pie plates from afar.

Its not the best load out but its ok.

 thejughead wrote:
I've used this load out effectively:

Ghostglaive and Scattershield
2 Shuriken Cannons

I use Eldar Aliies for my Tau and protect my Riptides from being assaulted. I can also use him to deter fire from the Riptides by using him aggressively. My opponent has to deal with him leaving Riptide formation free to send pie plates from afar.

Its not the best load out but its ok.

For the same points you could have taken the sun cannon .... So Sword that does nothing (rerolling one miss is not a fair trade long ranged Str10) a shield and 6 shots at str6 AP5 ... or 3 blasts at str6 AP2 and shield.

Look Sword and shield looks badass. It just doesn't compare with the other options. If it gave a special attack (ie hit all models in B2B) or had special rules ...maybe. At the moment it effectively does nothing and that shield is not good enough to make me want it (if it was the force shield 4++ maybe).

Tactically Vanilla is best Wraith Knight is best its set up to kill the big boys ... arguments can be made for sun-rifle, scatter laser and shield as it can murder most Heavy Infanry (DS terminators come to mind). But the sword no.

 Tri wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I've used this load out effectively:

Ghostglaive and Scattershield
2 Shuriken Cannons

I use Eldar Aliies for my Tau and protect my Riptides from being assaulted. I can also use him to deter fire from the Riptides by using him aggressively. My opponent has to deal with him leaving Riptide formation free to send pie plates from afar.

Its not the best load out but its ok.

For the same points you could have taken the sun cannon .... So Sword that does nothing (rerolling one miss is not a fair trade long ranged Str10) a shield and 6 shots at str6 AP5 ... or 3 blasts at str6 AP2 and shield.

Look Sword and shield looks badass. It just doesn't compare with the other options. If it gave a special attack (ie hit all models in B2B) or had special rules ...maybe. At the moment it effectively does nothing and that shield is not good enough to make me want it (if it was the force shield 4++ maybe).

Tactically Vanilla is best Wraith Knight is best its set up to kill the big boys ... arguments can be made for sun-rifle, scatter laser and shield as it can murder most Heavy Infanry (DS terminators come to mind). But the sword no.

Dont disagree. I love the look of the sword and forgot that MCs can assault whenever, but I built em so I wanna play em.

Better cast fortune and presience or at least guide on that to get the best value.

With fortune, your armor save gets a near 8/9 chance of bouncing AP4 and under shots, making autocannons useless, and the shield goes to 4/9, or nearly a half chance.

With presience everything rerolls to hit, which basically means your chances of missing are slim.

Having someone around to cast renew will ensure that your totally not a gargantuan creature stays alive by healing up lost wounds.

Luckily you as an Eldar player can have a crap ton of psykers and rolls on the power table, so your chances of getting what you need are high.

I use 2 wraith knights frequently, and the on paper justification for not using the glaive is all you need dude...it cost more...loses ranged attacks and you gain NOTHING other than one reroll melee save and a debatable invuln save with the blind rule....meh.



If you planned to do some crazy deep strike in your face turn 2 wraith knight shenanigans then maybe....I wish wraithlords could deep strike, they would be far better up close with flamers, and a sword that actually benefits them.

Um...Wraith Knight has no deep strike SR? I use guide and fortune ( when lucky) to help him out.

Yes its better in other incarnations, but with so much ignore cover out there a 5 ++ is worth something. I keep him from small arms fire and he protects my gun line.

 thejughead wrote:
Um...Wraith Knight has no deep strike SR?

Jump - pg 47 They get hammer of wrath and deep strike special rules.